I think it's time for a real change!
- Thread starter the420skier
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fujarome
Active member
fair enough, i didn't mean to try to call you out or anything, you seem pretty chill and cool, and answered every point i addressed and i respect that. I wasn't trying to hate on you or anything, you seem like a legit guy.
With that said though, it seems like you were a very specific, somewhat irregular case (learning to read early, doing math on your own etc etc) and private schools are always an option, but when it comes to generally educating the masses, public school should be mandatory. Everyone at least needs to know the basics which i think is what you can get in 12 years of school. And i know the leaders will always be intelligent, but children's test scores are also compared between countries to determine ranks, which is where i think we would fall.
With that said though, it seems like you were a very specific, somewhat irregular case (learning to read early, doing math on your own etc etc) and private schools are always an option, but when it comes to generally educating the masses, public school should be mandatory. Everyone at least needs to know the basics which i think is what you can get in 12 years of school. And i know the leaders will always be intelligent, but children's test scores are also compared between countries to determine ranks, which is where i think we would fall.
SteezyMcDizzle
Member
i remember public school as giving you a lot of content to learn.
it was content and not process.. lots of information but not a lot of asking questions. it promotes intellectual laziness..and some of the teachers loved to throw their political opinions in, which were usually one sided and simplistic..
i am in college right now, and some of the people studying to be public school teachers are pretty unintelligent.. they seem perfect for the task of simply feeding information to kids instead of encouraging curiosity, imagination and analysis. just my observations though..
it was content and not process.. lots of information but not a lot of asking questions. it promotes intellectual laziness..and some of the teachers loved to throw their political opinions in, which were usually one sided and simplistic..
i am in college right now, and some of the people studying to be public school teachers are pretty unintelligent.. they seem perfect for the task of simply feeding information to kids instead of encouraging curiosity, imagination and analysis. just my observations though..
Quinny
Active member
Children cannot make a rational decision regarding their education. However, parents have absolutely no right whatsoever do deny their child a basic education. Freedom is one thing, but a basic education, ideally, should be a human right.
If your parents do not see public school as a viable solution, both home schooling and private education are fine alternatives.
Education is necessary to have a productive population that can change and adapt to the many problems our world faces. It is better to be educated in a situation that is not ideal, than to have none at all. That really isn't arguable.
As someone that has an education, I would not allow others the ability to op-out because I would ultimately have to baby sit them. For the kids that want to talk about "brainwashing", it is 1000% easier to manipulate a population that doesn't have an education. Street smarts alone wont get you anywhere.
If your parents do not see public school as a viable solution, both home schooling and private education are fine alternatives.
Education is necessary to have a productive population that can change and adapt to the many problems our world faces. It is better to be educated in a situation that is not ideal, than to have none at all. That really isn't arguable.
As someone that has an education, I would not allow others the ability to op-out because I would ultimately have to baby sit them. For the kids that want to talk about "brainwashing", it is 1000% easier to manipulate a population that doesn't have an education. Street smarts alone wont get you anywhere.
wh@t
Active member
i personally think YACHTs "mandatory" argument is just off the target.
why not re-vamp the schooling system in the U.S. one might say.
why not make it a choice of whether to attend school or not?
the problem with both of these arguments is that they fail to address the problem of millions of apathetic teenagers and middle-schoolers in the United States who dont WANT to learn anymore. they see learning as nothing good, a waste of time and the school as a prison.
you could argue that a new school system would make kids more enthusiastic about schools because they'd be less prison-like, and therefore would make them want to work harder and get better grades. i used to think so. but now, having moved to Singapore and fully realized just how hard the Chinese, Malays, Indians, Koreans and not to mention the other nationalities of the world, work as hard as they do, just to get to America to take the jobs away from the apathetic, opportunity wasting Americans.
argue that, say its a hyped misconception. well im here to tell you, its not.
i, being a Junior this year, have seen kids do nothing for a year straight and still graduate from high school. its ridiculous to me that this can even happen. and to look at the other nations of the world where school is everything.
but then again, isnt it his choice whether he chooses to learn or not? so then would his time truly have been spent better if he wasnt in school?
which brings us back to whether or not school should be mandatory.
funny huh? no problem ever really gets fixed in my opinion, because nothing works for everyone.
why not re-vamp the schooling system in the U.S. one might say.
why not make it a choice of whether to attend school or not?
the problem with both of these arguments is that they fail to address the problem of millions of apathetic teenagers and middle-schoolers in the United States who dont WANT to learn anymore. they see learning as nothing good, a waste of time and the school as a prison.
you could argue that a new school system would make kids more enthusiastic about schools because they'd be less prison-like, and therefore would make them want to work harder and get better grades. i used to think so. but now, having moved to Singapore and fully realized just how hard the Chinese, Malays, Indians, Koreans and not to mention the other nationalities of the world, work as hard as they do, just to get to America to take the jobs away from the apathetic, opportunity wasting Americans.
argue that, say its a hyped misconception. well im here to tell you, its not.
i, being a Junior this year, have seen kids do nothing for a year straight and still graduate from high school. its ridiculous to me that this can even happen. and to look at the other nations of the world where school is everything.
but then again, isnt it his choice whether he chooses to learn or not? so then would his time truly have been spent better if he wasnt in school?
which brings us back to whether or not school should be mandatory.
funny huh? no problem ever really gets fixed in my opinion, because nothing works for everyone.
Quinny
Active member
No, because those kids/teens are not yet considered fully rational human beings, both legally and by the general consensus of society.
In theory, one must be educated to participate on Democracy. Otherwise the system will just run itself into the ground and turn into a true oligarchy. People gripe about idiot voters...letting those same "idiots" op-out of an education puts it beyond all reasonable doubt.
You talk about apathy, part of the problem is that we are giving kids too much choice. A teenager here in the US has far more choice over the course of his/her education than the vast majority, including in Europe. They get "drunk" off opportunity and take their situation for granted.
I am not at all opposed to changing the public school system. I think it could use some tweaking.
In theory, one must be educated to participate on Democracy. Otherwise the system will just run itself into the ground and turn into a true oligarchy. People gripe about idiot voters...letting those same "idiots" op-out of an education puts it beyond all reasonable doubt.
You talk about apathy, part of the problem is that we are giving kids too much choice. A teenager here in the US has far more choice over the course of his/her education than the vast majority, including in Europe. They get "drunk" off opportunity and take their situation for granted.
I am not at all opposed to changing the public school system. I think it could use some tweaking.
wh@t
Active member
good point
yes i agree, we need an educated populace, i never said we dont.
i suppose you could say that, but in reality the credits system basically dominates what youre going to do throughout your basic and high school career. i have only 2 electives which are also for credits, at the moment. only in college is there absolute freedom, which is where a lot of people get drunk. joke.
and finally, i agree, the system could be tweaked, but the logistics are unreal. so thats why i argue against it and for it.
anyway, im leaving this thread. nice talking with you.
yes i agree, we need an educated populace, i never said we dont.
i suppose you could say that, but in reality the credits system basically dominates what youre going to do throughout your basic and high school career. i have only 2 electives which are also for credits, at the moment. only in college is there absolute freedom, which is where a lot of people get drunk. joke.
and finally, i agree, the system could be tweaked, but the logistics are unreal. so thats why i argue against it and for it.
anyway, im leaving this thread. nice talking with you.
Von
Active member
Its just a discussion, no beef.
I do understand that I am not like most people out there in that I believe I have a natural aptitude for learning not to mention very supportive parents who wanted me to learn (and still do). Private schools are certainly not always an option because of the current government monopoly over the education system private institutions have been forced to cater to the upper class in America and can not be easily afforded by most not even those in the upper-middle class (which I'm assuming most of us are since we are avid skiers).
Why do we need to "generally educate" our public, what does "generally educate" even mean. Who cares about standardized test scores, just because a child in India can more aptly cater to a standard doesn't mean he will go on to become a better doctor or plumber then the kid he outscored in America. Also, our country is already falling behind in this department so how can you know that changing the system from a public one to a private one won't improve our fledgling test scores?
I do understand that I am not like most people out there in that I believe I have a natural aptitude for learning not to mention very supportive parents who wanted me to learn (and still do). Private schools are certainly not always an option because of the current government monopoly over the education system private institutions have been forced to cater to the upper class in America and can not be easily afforded by most not even those in the upper-middle class (which I'm assuming most of us are since we are avid skiers).
Why do we need to "generally educate" our public, what does "generally educate" even mean. Who cares about standardized test scores, just because a child in India can more aptly cater to a standard doesn't mean he will go on to become a better doctor or plumber then the kid he outscored in America. Also, our country is already falling behind in this department so how can you know that changing the system from a public one to a private one won't improve our fledgling test scores?
Von
Active member
Great observation, I found that in school I was given a lot of busy work to have content shoved down my gullet but was rarely given any context with which to digest that content with. Seminars are very good ways of learning and that discussion style is almost non existent in public schools, even though the style have been around for thousands of years.
I don't want to be unfair to the public school teachers, I believe that many of them are great people who want to do nothing more than help kids learn which is a noble goal. Ironically my mother was a school teacher and librarian at a public school, that didn't lower my opinion of her obviously (nothing could shes my mother). Though I will say that private schools would produce much better instructors than public schools do because there would be much more competition for teaching jobs and better incentives for teachers. I think its a tragedy that some of the most important people in our society (teachers) are abused by the very system that they work for.
I don't want to be unfair to the public school teachers, I believe that many of them are great people who want to do nothing more than help kids learn which is a noble goal. Ironically my mother was a school teacher and librarian at a public school, that didn't lower my opinion of her obviously (nothing could shes my mother). Though I will say that private schools would produce much better instructors than public schools do because there would be much more competition for teaching jobs and better incentives for teachers. I think its a tragedy that some of the most important people in our society (teachers) are abused by the very system that they work for.
fujarome
Active member
by generally educate i mean the real basics, (math, reading, history, and maybe a government class, just because few things annoy me more than those people who don't even know how their own government operates) Like you, i also always have enjoyed learning and learned to read and a few other things at a very young age, but i was in the public school system for 12 years, and i'm just as intelligent as my friends who went to private schools. And i think the part about standardized testing and int'l ranks is more a matter of respect than anything else, I personally would not like the be known as the richest, most powerful, yet overall least intelligent country in the world.
And i know that private schools are expensive, but then wouldn't that cost prevent most kids from going if all schooling became privatized? Or are you assuming that since all schools would now be private, it would not be as exclusive, and thus the costs would go down because of the new widespread availability? One problem i'd imagine is that many private schools have religious affiliations, and that could create limitations for some kids
And i know that private schools are expensive, but then wouldn't that cost prevent most kids from going if all schooling became privatized? Or are you assuming that since all schools would now be private, it would not be as exclusive, and thus the costs would go down because of the new widespread availability? One problem i'd imagine is that many private schools have religious affiliations, and that could create limitations for some kids
Von
Active member
If the goal of the public school system is to generally educate, and that general education includes a base knowledge of history, civics, or geography then the public school system would have to be one of the most abject failures of our Federal government (as bad as the war on drugs). Few Americans know anything about the constitution or the very basic ways in which our government operates. Most have limited knowledge of history that I would describe as mostly inaccurate and Amero centric (they only know american history and they don't even know very much of that) and I don't think I need to illustrate the lack of geographical knowledge beyond three words Miss South Carolina.
I'm just as smart as my friends who went to private school as well, but I would also note that most of them were not as smart as me before they ventured up into private school and it gave them the opportunity to catch up.
Private schools are expensive because the government has a monopoly on low cost education, if that monopoly were to be disbanded I'm sure a plethora of low cost private schools would spring up across the nation.
I'm just as smart as my friends who went to private school as well, but I would also note that most of them were not as smart as me before they ventured up into private school and it gave them the opportunity to catch up.
Private schools are expensive because the government has a monopoly on low cost education, if that monopoly were to be disbanded I'm sure a plethora of low cost private schools would spring up across the nation.
Von
Active member
I do agree that children are not able to make rational decisions regarding their education, but their opinion is still a valuable one and gains more credibility as they grow older. I don't believe that basic education is a right at all and that the only rights we have are the ones that were given to us by god/our rational minds (whichever you so believe in) and those are the rights of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I do agree that a parent shouldn't be able to disallow his child from learning and this does give worth to the argument that basic schooling should be mandatory however when the only option for basic schooling for most is public schools I still see that as very negative.
Home schooling and private school are great alternatives, but most families in America would not have the resources for one of the parents to teach the children full time, and since as I mentioned earlier the government has a monopoly on low cost education private schools have been forced to cater to the upper class leaving few choices for even upper middle class families like my own.
"
Education is necessary to have a productive population that can change and adapt to the many problems our world faces. It is better to be educated in a situation that is not ideal, than to have none at all. That really isn't arguable."
I agree with that completely
Why would you have to baby sit someone who hasn't properly educated themselves? If someone isn't educated properly for the environment they will live in they will fail, and will continue to fail until they somehow are educated correctly why is it your responsibility to baby sit them?
Home schooling and private school are great alternatives, but most families in America would not have the resources for one of the parents to teach the children full time, and since as I mentioned earlier the government has a monopoly on low cost education private schools have been forced to cater to the upper class leaving few choices for even upper middle class families like my own.
"
Education is necessary to have a productive population that can change and adapt to the many problems our world faces. It is better to be educated in a situation that is not ideal, than to have none at all. That really isn't arguable."
I agree with that completely
Why would you have to baby sit someone who hasn't properly educated themselves? If someone isn't educated properly for the environment they will live in they will fail, and will continue to fail until they somehow are educated correctly why is it your responsibility to baby sit them?
Von
Active member
So if one must be educated to participate effectively in a democracy and our democracy is currently failing because our "educated" populous (that is surprisingly ignorant for how much its been "educated) failed to throw Bush out of office four years ago, then don't you think that stance should be reevaluated?
Letting these "idiots" op-out of public schooling couldn't be better. Why would you want someone, who in theory will be ill informed no matter how much education they receive, to continue to waste their time in school when they could be out learning a trade and starting a career. Isn't that more important for our country then having people sit in school for four more years being taught poorly about things they couldn't care less about?
How do we give our kids choice and how does that create apathy? I know from my own life that when I have a choice in a situation and the situation is under my control I care a lot more about it than I would if the situation is predetermined for me, its like the idea that if you go out and buy yourself a car you will take much better care of it then if your parents bought it for you.
How would you tweak the school system? What are your ideas?
Letting these "idiots" op-out of public schooling couldn't be better. Why would you want someone, who in theory will be ill informed no matter how much education they receive, to continue to waste their time in school when they could be out learning a trade and starting a career. Isn't that more important for our country then having people sit in school for four more years being taught poorly about things they couldn't care less about?
How do we give our kids choice and how does that create apathy? I know from my own life that when I have a choice in a situation and the situation is under my control I care a lot more about it than I would if the situation is predetermined for me, its like the idea that if you go out and buy yourself a car you will take much better care of it then if your parents bought it for you.
How would you tweak the school system? What are your ideas?
fujarome
Active member
i completely agree with you here, that most people really don't know much about our gov. or geography etc. and that it is a terrible failure. I know more about it because I took classes about it and wanted to learn more. (hey, if they are going to lead us, i might as well know how/why they are the ones in power and how it operates) I also agree on the amero-centric learning, I had to take AP classes just to learn in depth European history, and they were BY FAR the best classes I had taken. Geography here is just completely miserable, as you said, and fortunately for me, I have always been good with this subject as well, actually I just aced a world geography test I got back this morning (semi-claim?)
I think part of the reason for the low cost monopoly is simply because it costs a ton to run a private school. Even without public schools, they would still be fairly expensive, though not as bad because there would be so many more students.
I think part of the reason for the low cost monopoly is simply because it costs a ton to run a private school. Even without public schools, they would still be fairly expensive, though not as bad because there would be so many more students.
Von
Active member
Real quickly then I'll stay out for a bit to let others discus
but why would it cost any more money to run a private school than it does to run a public one? If anything I would think it would be cheaper to run because A. privates schools don't have to be for profit they can be non profits B. private schools would run much more efficiently therefore cutting costs.
but why would it cost any more money to run a private school than it does to run a public one? If anything I would think it would be cheaper to run because A. privates schools don't have to be for profit they can be non profits B. private schools would run much more efficiently therefore cutting costs.
Quinny
Active member
So if they can't afford private school or have the time/resources for home schooling...we should allow them to op-out because there is no alternative to public school? I'm sorry, but thats asinine. Furthermore, your argument would seem to imply that public school is not suited for anyone, when clearly it has suited some just fine. If you want a solution thats going to really benefit the American people, you need one that engages them rather than just letting them do nothing. That is counterproductive to everyone and a disservice to the public.
And why would I have to "babysit" these hypothetical uneducated people you ask? Because they would undoubtedly lack some very basic skills and are bound to screw up because of that. As someone that has the basic skills they lack, odds are I (and others like me with an education) would be the ones having to clean up their mess. I sincerely doubt they would have the ability to take responsibility for there mistakes, even if they wanted to. The end result would have a negative impact on society, and I cannot condone such a thing.
An educated society is a healthier, and more fair, society. Period.
And why would I have to "babysit" these hypothetical uneducated people you ask? Because they would undoubtedly lack some very basic skills and are bound to screw up because of that. As someone that has the basic skills they lack, odds are I (and others like me with an education) would be the ones having to clean up their mess. I sincerely doubt they would have the ability to take responsibility for there mistakes, even if they wanted to. The end result would have a negative impact on society, and I cannot condone such a thing.
An educated society is a healthier, and more fair, society. Period.
SteezyMcDizzle
Member
i went to a blue ribbon public school in new jersey. we had many intelligent teachers as well as some not so.. i am sure we had tons of funding because it was one of the richest counties in the country and new jersey property taxes are notoriously high. we also had state of the art equipment in most classrooms. school of 3000 kids. some classes and teachers were indeed excellent. many others not so much so. one of the things i have thought about since is that we definitely focused on studying about the world a lot as well as the united states. i think that us history should have been predominant though.
also classes on civics, laws and government should be numerous. classes about our constitution, our natural and civil rights etc, court cases..this is all stuff that has a daily impact on our lives. every citizen should know and understand their rights in this country, not out of patriotism but because its important to their own well being.
practical classes should also be more numerous.. auto repair, driving skills, financial management.. i am not saying we did not have those classes at all, but there should have been more and more serious ones. thats the stuff you have to know immediately after getting out of high school..even if you go to college.
preparation for college..college loan counseling.. stuff like that. i think my school actually did a decent job with this stuff compared to others, but i think it could have been way better.
also classes on civics, laws and government should be numerous. classes about our constitution, our natural and civil rights etc, court cases..this is all stuff that has a daily impact on our lives. every citizen should know and understand their rights in this country, not out of patriotism but because its important to their own well being.
practical classes should also be more numerous.. auto repair, driving skills, financial management.. i am not saying we did not have those classes at all, but there should have been more and more serious ones. thats the stuff you have to know immediately after getting out of high school..even if you go to college.
preparation for college..college loan counseling.. stuff like that. i think my school actually did a decent job with this stuff compared to others, but i think it could have been way better.
fujarome
Active member
exactly, i dated a girl at a private school and her family was paying out of the ass to send her there, and they were by no means rich, and even then the school barely had enough money to function each year.
but honestly, i think this system of all private schools could work, it would just take far too long, and far too much money to happen.
and i too will stay out of this for a bit to let others post instead of just the 2 or 3 of us
but honestly, i think this system of all private schools could work, it would just take far too long, and far too much money to happen.
and i too will stay out of this for a bit to let others post instead of just the 2 or 3 of us
Dustin.
Active member
Maybe your opinion is a little biased since you are currently attending private school, but I can assure you that it is an ENORMOUS generalization to say that public school is inneffective. I have been to 9 schools in 4 different countries in my life to include private, public (German and American), religious specific, and homeschooling. I have seen the pros and cons of all of these and I would have to disagree with you.
By the way, the cost to send a child to a private school is much, much higher than the price of the taxes to support a public school. People already have all the options you listed, they just can't always afford them.
By the way, the cost to send a child to a private school is much, much higher than the price of the taxes to support a public school. People already have all the options you listed, they just can't always afford them.
steezinseagal
Member
what the fuck are you all talking about? high school was a blast. of course college is much more fun, but you all sound like whiny little bitches. yeah school is ineffective but its just babysitting because most people are too immature at that age to live on their own. hell, plenty of people can't handle it at 21.
and flyingspoon and 420skier, you guys sound like fucking morons. the idea that you take yourselves seriously is laughable, you'll never convince anyone cause you sound so dumb.
and flyingspoon and 420skier, you guys sound like fucking morons. the idea that you take yourselves seriously is laughable, you'll never convince anyone cause you sound so dumb.
Von
Active member
I will say again as I have said before, private schooling will become much more financially available when the government ends its monopoly on low cost education. Once the government's monopoly has ended communities and private investors will create private schools which are affordable to those in the community. Until the government monopoly ends private schools will continue to cater only to the rich. No one is opting out of an education.
Public school is not suited for anyone because it is an incredibly inefficient government entity that operates worse than private, parochial, and community schools would. Our current system doesn't engage a single student because they have little choice in the direction of their education until they enter college. You don't let them do nothing, you let them do what they want to do and what their parents think is best, I think its pretty clear that if someone did nothing the first 18 years of their life they would have no skills and would not be able to survive in the real world, much less get by.
If they lack a basic skill why would anyone allow them to engage in an action that requires the use of said basic skill that would be highly irresponsible and I assume who ever allowed/encouraged the action would be the one who would have to clean up the mess, not you some innocent skilled bystander.
I agree with you that an educated society is better but as I think history is now clearly showing public schools are not the best way to achieve that goal.
Public school is not suited for anyone because it is an incredibly inefficient government entity that operates worse than private, parochial, and community schools would. Our current system doesn't engage a single student because they have little choice in the direction of their education until they enter college. You don't let them do nothing, you let them do what they want to do and what their parents think is best, I think its pretty clear that if someone did nothing the first 18 years of their life they would have no skills and would not be able to survive in the real world, much less get by.
If they lack a basic skill why would anyone allow them to engage in an action that requires the use of said basic skill that would be highly irresponsible and I assume who ever allowed/encouraged the action would be the one who would have to clean up the mess, not you some innocent skilled bystander.
I agree with you that an educated society is better but as I think history is now clearly showing public schools are not the best way to achieve that goal.
Von
Active member
Private schools are currently underfunded because there is little incentive for non but the super rich to attend. Why would you want to go into debt to pay for your child to go to private school when there is a free school just down the road that you already pay for through taxes? Effectively this limits competition in the education market because the government has a monopoly. Limited competition means higher prices and lower quality which is exactly what you see in private schools today.
Quinny
Active member
We really shouldn't be having this argument. From your recent posts it seems that you more advocating to "how" the education is obtained, not the "if" that I will always be firmly against. An education in some measurable form should be mandatory for all citizens, how that is accomplished can be up for debate.
fujarome
Active member
perfectly true, which is why there could never be a decline in public schooling, it would just cost far too much. I also agree with the lower quality, Massachusetts state schools (where i went) actually held teachers to a higher standard, with required degrees and courses, than the private school my ex went to. Over there they didn't even need an official state license to teach, and it seemed like sometimes they would compensate for this by overloading the poor girls (it was all girls) with insane amounts of work, to make it seem to everyone that they were doing a better job. The problem with some private schools was that people paid for the "prestigious" name and reputation, not the actual education.
I'm not even sure we're debating now, I think we seem to have come to somewhat of a consensus.
I'm not even sure we're debating now, I think we seem to have come to somewhat of a consensus.
Von
Active member
I agree with you completely. Thanks however for discussing this with me and letting me flesh out my arguments, this is the first time I've really debated this issue with someone.
You're a smart guy Quinney and quite a good and respectable debater NS would be nothing but 14 year olds yelling shit at each other if it wern't for members like you.
You're a smart guy Quinney and quite a good and respectable debater NS would be nothing but 14 year olds yelling shit at each other if it wern't for members like you.