I have an ethical problem

freestyler540

freestyler540

Active member
I know this is not the place, but I wonder what kind of arguments you guys come up with.

As some heard, the highway 401 is being renamed as the highway of heroes. But here is the problem...I don't like it. Here are my arguments that came up with that conclusion. I'd like to see another view on it.

1. Murder is wrong, no matter who does it. Our legal system prohibits murder no matter the circumstances. But we stand behind people killing other due to our supremacist views of democracy. We glorify these people that kill without remorse. Lets make an analogy of the situation: If a person on the streets shoots another, that person is arrested and charged with murder. Not a person goes to Afghanistan, kills several people and is considered a hero. Conservatives hate abortion because it is killing someone, but supporting a force who kills another is ok...

2. For the police, shooting an innocent by stander is an offense, but over in Afghanistan, those numbers are hidden by the government. The forces moto is shoot and answer to questions later. I know that the extremists are causing most innocents deaths to put pressure on the government. Why are people we try to protect getting killed and nobody are helping them?

3.Pointless killing and rapes.Although this is a well kept secret, many women are raped by the armed forces. The best example is Vietnam. In our continent rape is punishable by life in jail, but overseas, nobody cares. I will not be surprised that rape is happening frequently. Then they are considered heroes, although they committed many crimes.

4.I hear over and over, we are fighting for freedom. I ask for who, us or them? You will say for them, but I don't really think so. We never asked them, nor did we listen to them. Although I hate the extremists, the Afghan people don't seem to benefit this war at all, its making it worse for them. The current leader is begging Canada and the US to come up with a better solution to stop the violence. But nothing changes, so we come up with honoring people to encourage people to enlist in this illegal war. Usually its the lower class that must enlist to pay off their houses.

I know that most of you will reject without reading the whole thing because you want to be right, so please respond in a logical, no hate approach. I don't criticize anything, I just don't think people that fight for that their government can say they were right at the expense of the other. So post other analogies that can prove me wrong, there is no reason to enter a curse or swear word.

To mods: if this gets out of hand, please delete this thread, I don't want another stupid thread about pro and anti bush.

 
wow man, the army and patriotism isnt all about rape and murder. Some of what they do may be wrong but they're regular people being put in extra ordinary situations...

someones aiming a gun at you or kills your best friend your not just gonna be like ok lets be friends. If your saying you wouldnt fight back and do whatever it takes for you or men to stay alive then your a liar
 
where did you hear about this

i live close to toronto and i never heard anything.

and why would you talk about an American war (vietnam) and then talk about a canadian highway being renamed. i dont understand your argument there...
 
Well, I had to be vague enough that I could incorporate both countries. I was using Vietnam to serve as an example. In war dehumanization does occur, I was relating what war does to the fighters and by standers.

Trust me I don't want to disrespect anyone.

 
Have you been living under a rock the last 3 weeks?

Anyways to the thread creater saying that the soldiers don't have remorse is ridiculous you don't honestly believe that the shit they go through after they have shot someone be it civilian or insurgent doesn't effect them??? I also agree that the renaming is dumb and its just Dalton trying to get some votes.
 
There trigger happy because they are scared shit less literally ! Yeah I like the Einstein quote to.
 
So, uh, the enemy combatant that tries to kill you, and end up failing, was just murdered?

So the guys who went and fought in WWII were murdering german soldiers?

Im sorry, but once you have an army versus another army or combatant, the notion of murder no longer exists. You'd think that'd be pretty elemental.

I think what you suffer from is a case of openmindicitis

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, brought on by excessive anti-government circle jerk sessions and liberal know-it-all-ism, perhaps even coupled with stunted notions about the world as an armchair activist with extreme short sightedness and lack of experience. Don't open your mind up so much your brain falls out.

War and murder are not the same thing when we deal with combatants. Duh.

 
That doesnt mean that countless have given their lives to protect their nation in times of war. if we didnt go and kill people in WW2 we would be germanies bitch. if your gonna hate on us soldiers go join the westboro babtist church. they will welcome you.

i know there have been bad cops, bad soldiers, bad people of authority in general but just because a few of those were corrupt doesnt mean that we shouldnt give recognition to the righteous.
 
Oh, and i'd LOVE to see your source on this little gem:

"3.Pointless killing and rapes.Although this is a well kept secret, many women are raped by the armed forces. The best example is Vietnam. In our continent rape is punishable by life in jail, but overseas, nobody cares. I will not be surprised that rape is happening frequently. Then they are considered heroes, although they committed many crimes."

A lot, really? Where'd you get that?

And our soldiers are trigger happy? really? Where'd you get that from? If you even knew what it's like to fight in a guerrilla situation in a foreign country where anyone can randomly jump out and kill you, im pretty sure you'd have another vision of reality.

i mean, it's great and all that you have your opinion, but since you probably haven't even started paying taxes yet, you've enjoyed a free ride over here, and no one has asked you to die for your country like these guys and gals are doing.

Blame the leadership, and select individuals for their mistakes, not the whole group, even if you disagree with their involvement. The way you smear our armed forces for PASSED mistakes and pulled from your ass examples is slightly insulting.
 
The majority of our legal system is based on contradictions. I dont believe that our government is attempting to create an unethical system, but things tend to get out of their hands, especially in foreign nations. When we think of the government covering up numerous events, it may appear as thought they're keeping information from us, but its more or less to protect our own values. Our nation's support on the war in Iraq is based on the fact that we're a patriotic nation attempting to spread our freedom. Whether or not we're accomplishing this goal is beyond the point. Errors occur, bad things happen, but the government cant just allow the general public to cause uproar over them. These problems are beyond our control.
 
actually this kid I know is in the army and he says the majority of them are twisted and sadistic. they shoot dogs for fun and are generally fucked up individuals whose parents didnt love them enough. not even kidding, and I totally believe this kid, he's not the softest person in the world exactly, so if he thinks people are messed up, its prob true.

think about it. how many people join the army because they want to kill someone? even if they wont put it that way, they at least are comfortable with killing someone, otherwise they wouldnt join the army.
 
First off i would like to say thank you to almostaskier, i couldnt have said it better myself.

to the thread creator, you really are very ignorant. it looks like you solely referenced full metal jacket or platoon. i bet youve never even talked to a soldier so:

Shut%20the%20fuck%20up.bmp
 
it bothers me how much propaganda is used in this administration. think about it...."MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!"......"Highyway of Heroes".....
 
that goes for narcotics agents even more. american cops shoot innocent civilians too. But nobody will ever know this because newschoolers wont get paid unless they delete counterculture threads
 
His point isn't anti-soldiers, his point is anti-purpose of military. He's saying, "Why should we allow killing in another country, when we punish killing at home?"

He's not hating on soldiers, he's hating on the mindset of our people in power, and such.
 
Yeah? Well I have. And they are dirty, raw-mouthed, and uncaring about the feelings of others. Why? Because that's what they are trained to do. Full metal jacket isn't far off. My brother is in the Marines, and he told me that the boot camp section of Full metal jacket is VERY acurate. So why don't you keep the cup in your picture for yourself.
 
wait...what?

you think newschoolers.com gets "paid" on the basis of deleting "counterculture" threads? surely you aren't serious.
 
i dont see a problem with it being done.

i was a solider for 4 years in the australian army.

and yes i have seen some horrible things done by my country men,

and yes i have done some horrible things.

et for me there are situations you are put in that require such acts of shooting others.

rape and pilliging is a different story of course.

innocent bystanders however is bullshit, in the 4 years i served in east timor, afganistan and iraq i had not once seen a innocent bystander in the line of infantry fire.

when guns go off inocent people run and guilty people come thats it.

most soldier dont like the war and a lot dont like bush but its not about politics when you get on the ground you are there to do a job and the end justifys the means.
 
You still don't get it, the two are NOT the same thing.

Here at home, we aren't at war. When someone gets killed deliberately, it's murder. Keep that in mind.

In a warzone, they're at WAR. Funny concept i know, but hear me out. There, it's kill or be killed. So you could say, since you want to have the same mentality as you would have in your city about a WARZONE, that it's a constant state of self defense...

War casualties when they don't involve civilians are not murders.

Did i really have to explain that?
 
thats an ill name and they should put in rest stops named after heros like one time a saw pococohontaus and and also lewis and clark rest stops, and even though they didnt kill people they were still heros
 
The only reason they want to rename the highway is to make people more patriotic, and take peoples minds off the bad and put it on the "good"..."war on terrorism...etc."

People don't like to think of their brothers/sons/fathers..etc as "murderers", and i dont think that most of them are. the government is responsible for many murders, but the man holding the gun, in most of the situations is not to blame. They are not heroes for killing the innocent, they are heroes for putting their life on the line to defend the beliefs of our country. unfortunately, the the government we have in place does not represent our country's beliefs..hence why it is not supported by about 50% or more of the population. They are heroes for their willingness to sacrifice. Perhaps in the future, we will have a government that accurately represents what the people of our country believe in, and the soldiers can be used more appropriately for actions we support.

Do not generalize soldiers as rapists. It is true that in vietnam rape took place. But you're painting a scarlet letter on the chests of a lot of good men.
 
also, you cannot blame soldiers for following the orders that are given by a government that the people elected.

If you want to blame anyone, blame everyone who voted for bush. even if you didnt, you know someone who did.
 
No, sir, YOU don't get it. His point is WHY KILL? I understand that when you are suddenly stuck in a building surrounded by people shooting at you to kill, you are obviously going to fight for your life. That is a fair statement, but that also IS self-defence. Self defence isn't punished in the U.S. today, so it makes sense.

This fellow is more about NOT KILLING. At least that's what I got from it, when you break it down.
 
they kill in self defense. you aren't allowed to just kill whoever you want. there are rules of war. Hence the soldiers who were arrested for shooting a couple POWs without warrant.
 
Haha my bro doesn't do shit. He sits in his office in Fallujah connecting wires and working on server stuff. He doesn't see combat or anything.

But it is reassuring when he tells me that they are actually making progress over there, and the attacks are super low nowadays.
 
I cant beleive people are actually against honoring the men and women who have lost their lives to fight for their country.Regardless of where they were sent or by who.
 
Murder is killing somebody for personal gain, whether its to settle something or to make money, you do it for yourself. It does not benefit anybody except the few people involved and may even be totally unprovoked.

A soldier kills to serve his country. He would also hand out food people in third world countries if thats what he was called upon to do. He is sent to a war zone to kill an enemy that wants to kill him, and he does it for the good of his country. I'm sure if you could just pick up the terrorist and put him in a garbage bag they would do that instead.

They are serving their country. Its not their fault that they have to take lives to do it. They would serve their country in any way that it asked them to.

So in a nutshell, shut the hell up. Its you they are protecting, your government that sent them their, and your nations wars they fight. To say they are pricks not heroes is to distance yourself from your own country and the people who work to protect you.
 
i can tell you dont support this war, i dont support this war either, but i can vote in the next election and I'm going to voice my opinion on the war and vote for what i believe, thats all you can really do man
 
I see that some people agree with my point of view and people against it. I thank you all for not blowing this out of proportion...except for you Almostaskier you have a fascist way of argument, crush the opposition.

I don't hate the troops, in fact I care about them, I want them home for 2 reasons: To come back safely and to spare them the pain of losing friends or limbs, For me, I am heartbroken to hear about dead soldiers. Although soldiers cannot protest fighting, I wish they would see the facts of war. There is no such thing of a clean war.

I heard a lot of criticism about the rape argument. I guess what happened in the Iraq prisons never happened, or forgotten. But I don't blame them at all, they were partly ordered to do so and partly due to human psychology (reference to the Milgram's obedience and authority)

 
I feel like I rambled so let me say this.

They are heroes for joining up, for choosing to put their lives on the line to serve their country and for making the ultimate sacrifice. What they did once they signed their name was not in their control. Just signing yourself into the armed forces these days is an act of bravery that many people here would not be capable of.
 
Well, thank you, aren't you gracious for kinda but not really calling the troops rapists. I guess yeah, they were ordered to rape, so it ain't their fault...

Wait, they were ordered to rape? what? where did you get this?

And what does "Although soldiers cannot protest fighting, I wish they would see the facts of war" mean? You wish they'd desert? You wish they'd realize what war really is? what?

I mean, sorry for not realizing that you truly are the supporter and deepest mourner of the troops. I mean, you CLEARLY were taking their side the whole time, not taking any of them for granted as vile murderers, accusing them of atrocities, and claiming that they shouldn't be considered heroes because over here, killing someone is murder. I mean, it's not like you compared the troops to mindless killing machines with no remorse.

Oh, oops.

"We glorify these people that kill without remorse. Lets make an analogy of the situation: If a person on the streets shoots another, that person is arrested and charged with murder. Not [i assume you mean Now] a person goes to Afghanistan, kills several people and is considered a hero."

Yeah, you totally didn't call them remorseless killers, or totally say that these people aren't heroes for dying over there and doing their job, ESPECIALLY when we all know the job was based on false pretenses and lies.

"The forces moto is shoot and answer to questions later."

Oh yeah, now those sound like our rules of engagement. And did you inadvertently call those you care oh so much for a bunch of trigger happy yuppies? oops!

"I will not be surprised that rape is happening frequently. Then they are considered heroes, although they committed many crimes."

Ahh, i LOVE this gem. Such strong and compassionate language for those you care so much about. Yeah, they're rapists, but they were ordered too supposedly, which makes it ok somewhat, and Abu Ghraib did involve everyone after all. Seriously, are you reading what you're writing?

Oh, and my dear boy, please stop throwing "fascist" around. I pray you, go to Italy and ask people what they consider fascist. You'd be surprised.

Next time you want to support the troops, i'd suggest not calling them trigger happy, remorseless murderers and rapists.

By the way, im not for the war in irak. Never really was, either. We got ourselves into a god awful mess, and i'd just as soon see the troops home as you (but that'd be pretty horrible, seeing how you've painted them).

And to the other guy, i don't think freestyler540 did a great job at saying he was merely against killing period...

Oh who am i kidding, im a fascist pig. May George Bush drink the blood of every man, woman and child of Irak!
 
its Iraq, obviously.

Understand that opposition in this case comes from ignorance. Inform, don't scold. I understand feeling passionate about your stance, and having some of his comments rile you up, but if you are condescending and take the offensive in every response, you're going to shut him up, he wont post anymore, and he wont feel like open discussion is encouraged, and that just leads to indefinite ignorance, whereas open conversation leads to understanding.

thats all.
 
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