How will Obama pay for the public option?

oh haw, that's funny.

have you heard this one? America has the number one health care system in the world, if by number one you mean 37.

 
whos kidding? if you are going to constantly tell me how everything is an oversimplification (no shit Sherlock its NS) im not going to set back and take it. write me an essay.
 
My whole point above was that no one is qualified to talk about the effects of those tax cuts, or the results of a tax policy decision. Hence your oversimplification was in practice spectacularly misleading: in no case, ever, will one undertake a policy decision with the goal you just laid out, because it will never be that simple. You made my point: talking about this stuff on NS, or in person, or in campaigns, or pretty much anywhere is a huge waste of time, because whatever you say will miss the mark so completely as to not be at all constructive. Your response to that was a juvenile attempt at making fun of me sarcastically and pulling up a quote from an unrelated thread. That is a spectacular fail, and I salute you on your willingness to unabashedly punk yourself. Very brave. Kind of lame, though, given that until that point we were all more or less discussing ideas and their shortcomings, rather than people.
 
quoted the wrong one..but I'm too lazy to fix it. Doctors in Canada get paid horribly compared to the rest of the world, American doctors will LEAVE if you pass this reform. Sure everyone will be insured..but you're gonna have to wait 4 days to be seen. I spent 2 hours in an empty E.R. when I broke my rib..shit's retarded.
 
Actually the proposal is good for doctors in that it should cut down on frivolous lawsuits which is intended to reduce malpractice insurance. In theory, anyway. But I don't see why doctors' wages would come down as a result of this.
 
i agree it was an over simplification. and yes i did respond in a juvenile way. through sarcasm. but i was half serious, do you really want an Essay or what? because you really should be quoting EVERONE in the thread saying "this is a gross over simplification" i mean shit, Pfaces gem about paying for this expansion in care just by shifting from reactionary to preventing. he didnt even use numbers. you will noticed i have used numbers. or melvs and the iranian state tv and fox. i even made the point to show greg where he was wrong. in a respectful way. even though he and i agree on far more than we disagree on..

but you will notice i refrained from calling you a "c**T" or a even a "b**ch" or the whole host of names ive ever been labeled in my NS carrier.

i know you dont like me, im fine with that. and i while i might not always show it, i do infact respect you to a certain level, and hope we could atleast have a fun day skiing together. as i could with a bunch of NSers i disagree with.
 
In the major shitstorm that is this "debate," one thing is certain, getting rid of frivolous lawsuits would be one element that would be beneficial to any reform.
 
i would also say that people SHOULD talk (not preach from a bully pulpit) about things they understand little about. thats how we learn. well probably not on NS. but i know i have learned things from people like you, drew, Pface, ben, and other people. i think respectful discourse is a good thing. after all taxes effect us in a very direct way. we PAY them.
 
I don't dislike you personally I just don't think you contribute much

to these discussions really, and the post above where you decided to

get all junior high is a good example. At most, you toss out bits of half-truth to support superficial analysis which you take to be deep certainty, while mocking people who are making a lot more sense than you are, egging on guys like Delphi who contribute nothing but partisan hackery to any thread, and saying basically the same things over and over again. A lot of it is parroted, which doesn't help. Basically what I'm getting at is, from a discussion standpoint, you're no Quinny.

As far as your comparison goes,

I think people are somewhat qualified to discuss the advantages of

preventive care, because a lot of them are very common-sense. Also, if

you want to read something on that topic, like this one: http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=345,

you will get the gist of it. By contrast, a prof could not in ten

hours, even if you were intently interested in what he was saying,

explain to you the ins and outs of what you suggested above. There are

simply too many ways it could be right and too many ways it could be

wrong. It's fruitless to talk about it. That was the point I was making.
 
thats when you look into what someone is saying and dont just take what they are saying as the be all end all of a subject. no matter who it is. everyone has an angle to work. and yes some people do not know everything. myself included. so take the initiative and if you think someone is spreading misinformation than do you work and show them why you think, or you know they are wrong.
 
hahaha speaking of that. did you see the kid i fact checked in the other healthcare thread the other day? it was pwnage. (why im typing this in here rather than pming you im not quite sure)
 
If that's true we should just fire all teachers and professors and save a whole bunch of money. Unfortunately, I think it's nonsense. You learn by reading and listening to people who know a lot more than you do about the subject you're interested in. A bunch of people talking out of their ass don't end up learning much, they just end up coming to uninformed conclusions.
 
think about this JD without someone to present a counter point, NS would be one big liberal circle jerk. :) you know its true. haha just like if noone presented a liberal counter point, it would just be one big conservative circle jerk. just not on NS ;)
 
did your college professor ever ask you what you thought about a subject? or did they just plug a cable into your brain and press send information?
 
Actually I see as many right wingers in these threads as lefties. I'm usually not posting in here so it's mostly just Ben. who, no offense, is no Quinny either. You're in every thread, Delphi is in every thread, this Greg_the_panda seems to be in every thread, Skier_boy26 pops up in a lot of them, that atlanta guy... I don't think it's that one-sided on here these days.
 
facepalmposter.jpg


I am sorry, NS. I really thought this wouldnt happen (stupidly)
 
hahaha whats that supposed to mean?

but yeah im pretty much the only liberal who posts lately. drews gone, you dont post at all anymore.
 
They mostly lecture, and we take notes... ? Unless it's a seminar, in which case you read a whole bunch about a topic and then talk about it, which is sort of like a cable into your brain? Seriously, what courses have you been taking.
 
anyone else realize that our insurance premiums can be high because other idiots in the states sue doctors over the DUMBEST fucking things and win, so doctors run all kinds of almost useless tests which causes our payments to go up?
 
hence malpractice suit reform, or whatever you want to call it. try and prevent some of that idiotic suing.
 
Uhhh... they're right about things. For example, my close corporations class just finished and he gave us an assignment about an upstart fuel cell company. The prof knows the advantages and disadvantages of starting a fuel cell business as a provincial corporation, a federal corporation, a partnership, a limited partnership, or a sole prop in terms of sheltering losses, liability shielding, control over assets and management, and future growth into other markets. He knows, he explains, I listen. I don't say, "hmmm, I wonder if this dude, who's been doing this for 15-20 years and has acted for multibillion dollar international companies, is just plain wrong". That would be silly. He knows, I do not know. I may ask him questions, but I will take the answers to be true, because they are much more likely to be true than my assumptions, because I know absolutely nothing compared to him.
 
you just proved his point that less than 1% know anything about taxes. you didnt take into consideration so many different things, and thats why it was taught to you in 8th grade. dont use that as an example.
 
I think it's better than most... took over 100 replies to get to a personal attack, and that was a really bad personal attack, which is why I didn't follow through on that whole 1 month ban thing this time. Also you said something about punching someone in the face that was pretty borderline so I'd probably have to one-month-ban you, too. Still, the 1 month ban threat: is it increasing civility? Only time will tell.

PS just so you guys know we mods will be getting a ban timer pretty soon so it'll be easier than ever to follow through on that promise.
 
i tried to talk about it in simple terms, cause, im not an expert. on a simple notion... increasing spending, and cutting taxes doesnt work. on simple terms.
 
But once again, this is basically like saying "on simple terms, free trade is bad for people." Only more so. And with less accuracy.
 
yeahyeahyeah excuse the simple middle class american trying to put things in a simple setting that people can understand rather than huge words and numbers that are needed to fully explain taxes. and even then, one needs an accounting degree to even slightly understand it. i like putting things in terms that are simple. yes, it may not touch on all the complexities of how taxes work but the overall picture is put across.
 
true, bringing in Sims 2 was probably a stupid idea.... and wouldnt it be key word'S'..... simple terms is two words not one.

HA!

ok, im done being an intolerable jerk in this post.
 
good example of when yes. you set back and absorb what they have to say.

but lets say your professor said something like abortion is killing a baby. or when your sociology professor asks for people in the class to participate. then we all become part of the learning process. (or so my professors tell me) they want us all to learn from each other, they are in fact pretty humble people themselvs and realize they dont know everything in the world.

anywho, no hard feelings, consider this my apology for calling you out. although really you cant expect people to write you an essay for every subject.

but im off to bow before my framed portrait of GW, recite his inauguration speech from heart, brush my teeth then go watch Jack Bauer kick some terrorist ass.

im actually gonna go watch Bauer kick some serious ass ;)
 
sorry to extend the tangent, but when you do have a professor who is talking about some subject that obviously has no authoritative answer, or when the professor invites the whole class to participate and entertain a wide variety of opinions, it's probably to encourage the practice of being able to interpret others points of view, in a charitable, understanding fashion, not to provide you an opportunity to tear them apart with your own superior intellect.

obviously there will be people who are just flat out wrong, but the challenge isn't to be able to say why they are wrong, it's to be able to say why they think they are right.

just as an observation on here, that is something you have trouble doing. I can't recall a post where you've rationalize another's logical process, and at least seceded the validity of their argument. Usually you either go straight to a poor interpretation of the initial argument, followed by an attempt at making the falsely represented argument seem absurd, or you provide some completely irrelevant personal account of someone in your family or someone you know that is meant to be an end all be all counter-example to the point in question.
 
learn to listen to your opponents, dont just blow them off as "YOURE AN IDIOT AND WRONG" right away.
 
if you have any inkling of the thought, maybe i don't do a great job participating in a fair, honest discussion, yes i'm talking to you.
 
Well said,
Yes there are welfare slugs out there that deserve nothing but the back of your hand. However, if you want to know how a good chunk of this could be paid for is by eliminating the loopholes that exist for a lot of very rich people to escape a lot of taxes.
Let's say someone owns a business valued at $5 million. All they have to do is issue half the value in mortgage bonds and carry the rest in merchandise of equal value. This means that when an assesor comes to balance out the taxes the bonds will head up against the merchandise meaning no tax is accessible. All someone has to do is transfer personally owned land to this business and BAM no tax on the land or merchandise. It is through numerous loopholes such as this that a lot of tax money escapes the system and the super rich don't have to pay the same taxes. Granted this is not all or maybe even the majority, but it is still a lot of people and a lot of money that is missing.
Maybe after hearing this you felt all smart and wanted to put the argument, but al they do is spend and reinvest which is good for the economy...wrong. This investing generally goes to overseas corporate investment and outside financial economies. It's the easiest way to make MORE money and it's the way a lot of people do it.
I cannot see a public health option being detrimental to the United States. While there are major problems of obesity, as Rowen said, these may be cured with the more specific attention of people doing regular visits. I mean let's face it, America is straight up ignorant about what food goes into their body. I have rarely ever seen someone take a look at the nutrition facts before reaching for those Oreo's. Yeah it gives government a bigger share in the economy but it actually is worth experimenting. It is fairly easy to transition it back into a private market if it fails, which couldn't do more harm to Americans that it currently does. I think that if a lot of Americans thought about this logically and weren't so petrified of the news anchors telling them that they will be paying for it with their hard earned money, that this would be a logically good solution.
Also a tiny rant on the insurance industry. Look at how damn big the insurance industry is. Do we really need pet insurance. Does insurance actually even help? Let's say you get into a car accident. After deductibles, travel costs, wasted time, etc you still get raped by the next year charge because somebody hit you!? What is the insurance industry coming to? The whole fundamental reason for insurance has somehow been twisted through hidden fees and out scaled ideas about what needs to be covered and what should be repaid.
 
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