I'm still rocking my Salomon spk's from 10+years ago. I like them but toe pieces are almost done for. At the time they blew anything else I had tried of the water. Do full tilts offer more performance? What other brands do park specific ski boots? I read the sticky about boots just trying to get an idea if it's worth trying something new. Anyone that liked spk's what are you rocking now
How much have ski boots changed on the last 10years?
- Thread starter Obwon
- Start date
Non_State_Actor
Active member
topic:Obwon said:
I don't know if anything on the market has the massive bucket like fit of the spk.
Current full tilts are basically the same as they have been for 35+ years.
Don't worry about "park boots" There's really no such thing and some of the biggest freestyle skiers in the world ride straight up race boots, just get one that fits well.
Sounds like you don't hit jumps. I don't design boots but the 1080 and Spk we're the only boots that weren't brutal to jump in. Both park specific boots so I am concerned about it. Pros riding perfectly groomed parks and rarely making mistakes can probably get a way with a stiffer boot that gives them better control. Just get a boot that fits lol. Thanks for advice
14391094:mystery3 said:
ajbski
Active member
14391272:r00kie said:
There are obvious benefits of the 3 piece design for park skiers. the flex (resistance) of the boot is more consistent through out the entire range of motion of the boot compared to a traditional dual cuff. traditional boots only flex so far before they start distorting in shape and get crazy stiff. i think you need that increased consistent range of motion skiing park.
on another note, FT were the first boots i had with the wrap intuition liner and i havent had any other liner since. except for my touring boot. i think putting a wrap intuition liner into any boot makes it more suitable for park. i also put some dr.schols gel foot beds in my fischers to help with the impacts a bit.
k2 is probably axeing the "FT" brand just to reduce marketing costs. from what i understand, they are still going to produce the three piece.
Schoess
Active member
Here come the downvotes but...
Firstly in my experience Full Tilts are not always the best option. Many many friends and people I know have had Full Tilts break after less than a season on them (buckles, cables, tounge mount, etc).
Secondly a 3 buckle boot does not properly fit everyone's foot to prevent heel lift, give you control with comfort, etc.
Lastly, while a 3 piece boot gives a more progressive flex in the park and you'll for sure get laid riding B&E boots, what will ultimately be much better than that is having whatever boot actually fits your foot the best. Even if that's a rando boot like previously stated here. I am currently riding an Atomic normie boot because it far and away felt the best from every boot I tried on. Listen to your bootfitter and don't be stuck on 1 brand of boot if your feet are not vibing.
Firstly in my experience Full Tilts are not always the best option. Many many friends and people I know have had Full Tilts break after less than a season on them (buckles, cables, tounge mount, etc).
Secondly a 3 buckle boot does not properly fit everyone's foot to prevent heel lift, give you control with comfort, etc.
Lastly, while a 3 piece boot gives a more progressive flex in the park and you'll for sure get laid riding B&E boots, what will ultimately be much better than that is having whatever boot actually fits your foot the best. Even if that's a rando boot like previously stated here. I am currently riding an Atomic normie boot because it far and away felt the best from every boot I tried on. Listen to your bootfitter and don't be stuck on 1 brand of boot if your feet are not vibing.
ajbski
Active member
14391327:Schoess said:
youre right. maybe not need. but the forgiviness is nice regardless of what level youre at. landing wrong in a 130 flex boots just staright up hurts.
again, youre right. its not the right application. but there is no doubt that it adds a bit of squish to the heel of the boot.
ive seen these shock absorbing foot beds on instagram. the ad has some guy dropping a bowling ball on a cinder block with and without the foot bed. the foot bed stopped the block from exploding. anyone tried those? they claim its for skateboarding impacts
Schoess
Active member
14391330:ajbski said:
I actually use Dr Schols in all of my skate shoes and hiking boots. They're dope and work well, I just think if you overshoot a 50 ft jump, its gunna hurt anyway and insoles arn't going to solve that. Ski insoles are much more about planting your foot than they are shock absorption. I've been riding boots without it for awhile and I think I have better feel because of it. Also I'm not convinced my last boots that did have it really made that much of a difference.
ajbski
Active member
14391353:Schoess said:
youre such a sound and reasonable dude. i like it. youre totally right about feel. shock absorbtion is a double ended sword. and foot beds are for getting your ankle/arches in the right spot. footbeds also solve liners that packed out or keep people going on boots that are just too big.
overshooting it might not help because of the momentum you are carrying. youre gonna yard sale if youre reaching the parking lot. but casing on a 25 footer you will totally feel a difference and it does happen.
i have them under the liner and still rock sidas custom molded on the inside of the liner.
moving from a fischer ranger pro that did have gel/foam/soft stuff in the boot board (like full tilts) to a ranger one that doesnt, i noticed a huge difference and just needed to put the squish back in.
also no one mentioned booster straps. they also help me a great deal.
i never rode the spk, but i can see how that squishy toe box was a game changer. when taking a break in the lodge i just have to take off my boots to give my toes a rest from bashing into the front of the boot.
cydwhit
Active member
This thread is already a dumpster fire, so here's some more gas for the flames:
The words "progressive flex" get thrown around a lot in relation to Full Tilts, which is funny, since they are actually marketed as having a more linear flex (something three piece boots generally have in common).
I'd be pretty shocked if most average skiers (myself included) can actually "feel" the difference between a linear and progressive flexing boot in a blind test. But for some reason we like to get all uppity like "I only ski Full Tilt because of their progressive flex" when in reality a cheapo overlap rental boot probably has a more progressive flex than you beloved B&E's.
Get a boot that fits you well. Don't get hung up in the marketing. Ski in it until it's stinky.
The words "progressive flex" get thrown around a lot in relation to Full Tilts, which is funny, since they are actually marketed as having a more linear flex (something three piece boots generally have in common).
I'd be pretty shocked if most average skiers (myself included) can actually "feel" the difference between a linear and progressive flexing boot in a blind test. But for some reason we like to get all uppity like "I only ski Full Tilt because of their progressive flex" when in reality a cheapo overlap rental boot probably has a more progressive flex than you beloved B&E's.
Get a boot that fits you well. Don't get hung up in the marketing. Ski in it until it's stinky.
Lol. The thought of rental boots being good park boots has actually crossed my mind.
I love the Spk's. The toe box and impact heel were two big selling points, I feel like they made a difference. I over shot and cased some pretty big jumps without much consequence to my shins or feet.
My plan was to bring them to my boot fitting to see what boots had similar feel. I was going to start with Ft because it seems to be the way as the 1080 and spk were back when. My friend did have some Rossi's he liked. Between the 1080 and spk I had a pair of dalbello that were punishing. Kinda ruined 1/2 a season for me. Jumping in race boots previous to 1080 was terrible.
In the past I've looked at my aging gear as good enough but the boots are pretty worked and I bought a pair of Armada Arv 116 JJ's at the end of last year. I mean wow, compared to my 9thward Rory bushfields maybe circa '05-06, it unreal how much sick the new armadas are. Has me thinking about how much better the next generation of park skis and ski boots could be.
I'm weary of anything boot isn't marketed/made with park in mind because my experience with anything else has not been good.
I love the Spk's. The toe box and impact heel were two big selling points, I feel like they made a difference. I over shot and cased some pretty big jumps without much consequence to my shins or feet.
My plan was to bring them to my boot fitting to see what boots had similar feel. I was going to start with Ft because it seems to be the way as the 1080 and spk were back when. My friend did have some Rossi's he liked. Between the 1080 and spk I had a pair of dalbello that were punishing. Kinda ruined 1/2 a season for me. Jumping in race boots previous to 1080 was terrible.
In the past I've looked at my aging gear as good enough but the boots are pretty worked and I bought a pair of Armada Arv 116 JJ's at the end of last year. I mean wow, compared to my 9thward Rory bushfields maybe circa '05-06, it unreal how much sick the new armadas are. Has me thinking about how much better the next generation of park skis and ski boots could be.
I'm weary of anything boot isn't marketed/made with park in mind because my experience with anything else has not been good.
14391376:cydwhit said:
kvan
Active member
It's not a matter of what brand offers the most performance, what boot your buddy is skiing, or if the boot has a cable vs. buckle system... It's really about what fits you based on your specific anatomical and biomechanical needs. A ski boot purchase is not like choosing a pair of skis where your sole decision is based on looking at specs, reviews, etc. You could go out and buy a $900 high end performance boot that got great reviews, but if they aren't a close match to your foot shape, they're pretty much useless to you. Do yourself a favor and go see a reliable fitter that can really coach and guide you towards the right boot. Many skiers have no idea how a boot should feel out of the box. Let us know where you're located and one of us can probably recommend a reputable shop in your area. Honestly don't even obsess about features, specs, or brand too much just put the ball in the bootfitters' court and go through the process. Trust me you'll be spending more time on the hill ripping turns compared to having to constantly take your boots off throughout the day.
14391824:Obwon said:
I don’t think you really see a ton of this anymore. All these features are just bandaids for poor fit. Guarantee your boot actually fits like shit. I had all these issues and looked for the same shit in a boot until I actually got a real good fitting boot.
ajbski
Active member
[tag=282809]@Obwon[/tag] if you go try out some full tilts, pull the liner out, then pull the boot board out. youll see that its not actually that squishy. and second of all, not all sizes have the little toe cushion. also i find most full tilts (at least the classic) have high heel and put you more forward in your boot. going from an spk which is pretty flat, im not sure you will like that feeling.
everyone (regardless of if they consider themselves park skiers or racers) will always say fit is the most important. the thermoplastic shells right now can get you a pretty good fit with very little work.
there are always small modifications you can make to your boot that will make it more appropiate to the type skiing you are doing. different things work for different people. comfort is somewhat of a mental game. the runnning insoles might be good but i cant say for certain. try it out and let us know how it works!
everyone (regardless of if they consider themselves park skiers or racers) will always say fit is the most important. the thermoplastic shells right now can get you a pretty good fit with very little work.
there are always small modifications you can make to your boot that will make it more appropiate to the type skiing you are doing. different things work for different people. comfort is somewhat of a mental game. the runnning insoles might be good but i cant say for certain. try it out and let us know how it works!
tomPietrowski
Active member
14391376:cydwhit said:
Thank you Cy. 3piece are generally much more linear and its this characteristic which really lends its self to freestyle and why you are seeing them all over the freestyle events at Beijing and nowhere in the alpine events.
But its interesting what you say about not feeling the difference. I actually think people could potentially. We are working on two projects currently, a new overlap and the new 3 piece boot so i'm skiing both back to back pretty regularly. I actually think you should be able to tell the difference as they should have different characteristics to the flex. This is an important factor and why we are not just trying to make a 3pice boot feel like an overlap. The differences can be subtle sure but we are really working on fine tuning the differences as if we didn't it makes no sense to make both really. If 3piece ski like overlap then just make an overlap boot. Both types have a reason to exist and getting the best out of both styles is a big part of both projects.
cydwhit
Active member
14392970:tomPietrowski said:
Interesting! That was purely conjecture on my end, but I do think that if you put an overlap and a three piece boot in some sort of wrap so the skier had no idea what was on their feet, and they fit identically, most skiers on this site couldn’t reliably say which was which. But I could be way off the mark and I’m very interested in seeing where the projects you mentioned lead!
tomPietrowski
Active member
14392994:cydwhit said:
I would agree they probably could not tell you which was which but i think a majority at least would be able to tell a difference. Its just most people don't know enough about boots to understand what they are feeling.
ajbski
Active member
-a beginner for sure no. they wouldnt be able to tell.
-an intermediate probably not.
-even an advanced skier with 5 or so experience, probaly not either.
-a skier who has had all different sorts of boots and skied extensivley probably would.
it becomes more obvious the lower you are in the flex range. at 130 flex or 10 from ft you couldnt really feel it until youve really skied them hard on a big stiff ski. but at
-an intermediate probably not.
-even an advanced skier with 5 or so experience, probaly not either.
-a skier who has had all different sorts of boots and skied extensivley probably would.
it becomes more obvious the lower you are in the flex range. at 130 flex or 10 from ft you couldnt really feel it until youve really skied them hard on a big stiff ski. but at
tomPietrowski
Active member
Also I just wanted to add that I actually do think there are some things which can make a boot more suitable for park. I actually built myself a "park" boot this year as non of our inline models were exactly what I wanted.
I have a 130 lower shell which is nice and stiff but then i add to that a softer upper cuff. I like this mix as the lower shell is good and stiff and has a powerful flex you can push into but the cuff has a little more give making it better for slower speed movements and also big hits as it gives slightly more than a stiffer cuff would.
Beyond that I add our powerplate and a spoiler from an FTS. This allows me to build up the height in both the front and back but in a softer material than using a taller cuff for example.
I change the toe box shape slightly too to give the big toe some room for the inevitable back seat landings
Lastly I build up the heel of the boot board with a soft intuition foam. This adds some shock absorbing properties but also raises the ramp angle slightly making it feel slightly more similar to an FTS although not to the same extreme of that.
Now admittedly a lot of this may be more personal stuff for me but having skied park for 20 years now and knowing boots very well I can say these boots are some of the best I have used for park in a long time.
A lot of this is done in our new Recon 120+ which will be out in the next week or two so some of you may want to check those out.
I have a 130 lower shell which is nice and stiff but then i add to that a softer upper cuff. I like this mix as the lower shell is good and stiff and has a powerful flex you can push into but the cuff has a little more give making it better for slower speed movements and also big hits as it gives slightly more than a stiffer cuff would.
Beyond that I add our powerplate and a spoiler from an FTS. This allows me to build up the height in both the front and back but in a softer material than using a taller cuff for example.
I change the toe box shape slightly too to give the big toe some room for the inevitable back seat landings
Lastly I build up the heel of the boot board with a soft intuition foam. This adds some shock absorbing properties but also raises the ramp angle slightly making it feel slightly more similar to an FTS although not to the same extreme of that.
Now admittedly a lot of this may be more personal stuff for me but having skied park for 20 years now and knowing boots very well I can say these boots are some of the best I have used for park in a long time.
A lot of this is done in our new Recon 120+ which will be out in the next week or two so some of you may want to check those out.
tomPietrowski
Active member
14393028:ajbski said:
No just punching it to be more square and slightly longer on the big toe side.
ajbski
Active member
14393034:tomPietrowski said:
so on the side?
ive had some shop techs telling me they cant punch the toe because of some problems with bindings. i have problems with my big toe smashing into the front of my boot and have grinded them out, but it didnt help much.
could you maybe possibly please share some pictures of what you did? ... please? and thank-you?
Non_State_Actor
Active member
14393046:ajbski said:
What boot? Have you heat molded the shells if that's an option?
The census seems to be overwhelming with fit over park oriented. It's interesting that the shell materials are more consistent in variable temps these days. I think I'm still afraid of a stiffer boot. I wouldn't of thought of the heel/toe ratio being a factor or the angle of the boot so that's helpful. I do remember the spk kinda feeling like I was standing straight up in it when I first got it. Maybe helps with switch hits. I'm guessing down sizing is still a thing? My running shoe is 10, spk 26.5 (8.5). It did seem like I was shifting around in them a bit today got like 4-5". I've been convinced to get new boots. There are a couple local shops so should have a decent selection. This ended up being useful thanks NS.
lion.pappa
Member
14393017:tomPietrowski said:
sounds like a boot I wanna try!! Def gonna check out the Recon 120 series!
tomPietrowski
Active member
14395636:mrk127 said:
Yes I will admit this may be hard for most people to source. We have material swatches we use for liner development so I used some of these. But Boot fitting shops can get foams in different thickness and softness. Talk to your local shop and Im sure they would sell you some foam.
tomPietrowski
Active member
14396014:animator said:
Correct it's dropping tomorrow. Does not have all the features I listed but the general idea is the same.