Highschool girls/ religion

The point of making the world better is so that I can live a better life. It's self improvement, but nobody is truly happy being alone, so one must improve the entire world around him. Improving the whole scene makes other people happy with you, which in turn makes you happy, and it makes the world a better place. It's not doing it for anyone or any god, it's doing it for ourselves and our peers.

Also, you seem to have a lack of faith in your fellow man. What's so wrong in believing in HUMAN goodness, not just the implanted goodness for the promise of a better life.
 
I dont judge people on their religion or what they think whatsoever, because honestly who's to tell you your wrong because no one fucking knows. Believe what you want, i like the polytheism kinda, multiple gods for multiple things, like greeks. OWN that WAR ARES.
 
alright i respect that. But the only way your gonna go to heaven is if you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and that He died on the cross for your sins. Thats the only way and you can check Romans 10 for clarity.
 
No, I'm talking actual historically credible sources. Not fucking crack heads writing on the internet. If those two, and you're latest conspiracy site are the best you are going to come up with, I'm pretty sure you've already lost.

"Of course hitler proffessed christianity because he wanted the german peoples approval. Ive learned in about 3 different history classes that hitler belonged to the thule or whatever."

He didn't need their approval once the war started, especially not in 1945, why was he still proclaiming his faith? And what the fuck is the Thule? Seriously, you're history classes suck balls.

"Your now just starting to be a little bitch who got made because I proved to you that hitler wasn't really a christian."

And how have you proved this? Here are quotes from Hitler.

"My fame, if Providence preserves my life, will consist in ... works of

peace, which I still intend to create. But I think that if Providence

has already disposed that I can do what must be done according to the

inscrutable will of the Providence, then I can at least just ask

Providence to entrust to me the burden of this war, to load it on me. I

will beat it! I will shrink from no responsibility; in every hour which

... I will take this burden upon me. I will bear every responsibility,

just as I have always borne them...

Thus the home-front need not be warned, and the prayer of this

priest of the devil, the wish that Europe may be punished with

Bolshevism, will not be fulfilled, but rather that the prayer may be

fulfilled: "Lord God, give us the strength that we may retain our

liberty for our children and our children's children, not only for

ourselves but also for the other peoples of Europe, for this is a war

which we all wage, this time, not for our German people alone, it is a

war for all of Europe and with it, in the long run, for all of

mankind."

Adolf Hitler, 30 Jan. 1942

God the Almighty has made our nation. By defending its existence we are defending His work....

Only He can relieve me of this duty Who called me to it. It was in the

hand of Providence to snuff me out by the bomb that exploded only one

and a half meters from me on July 20, and thus to terminate my life's

work. That the Almighty protected me on that day I consider a renewed

affirmation of the task entrusted to me....

Therefore, it is all the more necessary on this twelfth anniversary

of the rise to power to strengthen the heart more than ever before and

to steel ourselves in the holy determination to wield the sword,

no-matter where and under what circumstances, until final victory

crowns our efforts....

In the years to come I shall continue on this road,

uncompromisingly safeguarding my people's interests, oblivious to all

misery and danger, and filled with the holy conviction that God the

Almighty will not abandon him who, during all his life, had no desire

but to save his people from a fate it had never deserved, neither by

virtue of its number nor by way of its importance....

In vowing ourselves to one another, we are entitled to stand before the Almighty and ask Him for His grace and His blessing.

Adolf Hitler, 30 Jan. 1945

Two random examples.

"Lets just stop arguing. Just because you have never heard of a website doesnt mean its not legit."

Fuck that. You want me to stop because you have no argument at all. You are bitching out. Did you even look at these websites?

"Maybe those were a little in question but better than a freshly edited wiki source"

Where did I use a Wiki source? I didn't. Wiki is terrible, but it's better then those because those have zero basis in fact whatsoever.

"You never even provided any proof that hitler was a true christian or any to prove my evidence wrong."

I did now, want more?

 
Religion is basically aobut living a good and kind life and not to force your religion on others but accept that your and their beliefs are different, but when money and politics get involved it becomes some almighty fiasco and everyone gets bullshited.
 
K. I'm going to own on you here.

Cold war had a lot of religious aptitudes... Athiest Commusnism vs. American religious freedom. Korean war was part of that...

American Civil war had slavery involved... which the bible was used to justify in some situations.

WW2 had HUGE religious implications... being that the fucking holocaust was part of that whole thing.

French Revolution had some religion involved... lots of Catholic - Protestant battles there over separation of church and state and who should control...

American Revolution? Religion had a lot to do with that as well... with religious freedom being part of the whole American motto.

Soviet war in afghanistan? Muslims saw it as a holy war... this big, whoremongering athiest country invading their homeland? and then the USSR probably saw Afghanistan as this little, barren wasteland that needed to be converted on route to Karachi, Pakistan (which was next on the agenda after Afghanistan.)
 
Uhh... You post the link to the quote, and then paraphrase what it says before the link... That way they see your source, and they know the meaning without much inconvenience.
 
My source? MY SOURCE IS HITLER!

And I have been saying that Hitler has proclaimed his faith in later speeches when doing so would gain him nothing, but that wasn't enough. And no one clicks links ;)
 
I always thought this was funny...

God is a guy who talked to some Jewish guys, some Christian guys, and some Islam guys, and accidentally caused more people to die than anyone else in human history.

And people wonder why he doesn't talk much to us anymore.

But i think i believe in god. sure would explain alot right?

I also like Jesus, love one another, be a good, kind, and other wise rad individual, if you have two coats and your neighbor has none give one to him so that you will both be warm etc etc etc...

Its super ugly that all kinds of religions have been twisted for selfish gains of dictators or politicians or businesses, seems to contradict the things that the religion is supposed to be about, non violence, charity, compassion...

but we could talk about this till the cows come home...
 
Yes, but there were still tons of anti-atheist propeganda going around in the 50's and such. Why do you think so many athiest americans were targeted by Mccarthy as athiests? There were still serious implications regarding religion when it came to that...

There is never a war started over one single solitary issue... There are always multiple issues at hand...

in the cold war, plain economics and political structures/beliefs were not just the only things brewing.. religion was also a huge part of it... at least when speaking of the USSR
 
ill tell you why... take one good look at the world then talk about human goodness...

yeah... id like to see some...

sure there are exceptions to everything... but i havent seen the majority of people behaving in this way for a looooooong time....

i do lack faith in fellow man and this finite world... thats one reason that contributes to why my faith is so strong in the lord and the infinite life that comes after...

but yeah like that one dude says... we could talk about this till the cows come home...

its getting cold out and we'll all be skiing soon so lets be happy....
 
this man knows what he is talking about

religion doesnt cause wars. the major cause for war involves money, generally because one country wants what another has, such as land or a port or access to trade with another country. most wars are as clear-cut as this. but generally the cause of seemingly religiously-motivated wars is socioeconomic inequality. its just a way to divert people's thinking from the real problem. the problem isnt with the serbs, its the albanians...kill them! no its not germany's fault that we lost the war, germany could never lose a war, its the jews!
 
There is one thing that I feel is never covered in this debate anywhere. And that is what about those individuals who are incapable of making the decision of whether or not God exists, i.e. the severely mentally handicapped. Does their existence throw doubt on either sides point of view, what do you think?
 
Ok, then why would they have been allowed to be born with that condition by a merciful to begin with?

And I am not trying to be a dick just someone who is curious and confused.
 
This is so wrong in so many ways. The cold war was not about religion, it was about the United State's  ultimate goal of maintaining the

balance of power around the world without the use of tactical nuclear weapons.

As a military hedgemon, the United States was very interested in maintaining

its position, and would not allow any nation, or group of nations to become

powerful enough to challenge it. At the time, the largest threat to the balance

of power, and therefore the United States, was communism and its spread across

the world. For the United States feared that if enough countries fell to

communism, they might be able to form a coalition strong enough to face the

United States on all fronts, which was not acceptable. The administration

feared that any slight shift in the balance of power could lead to the

beginning of such a coalition forming, and therefore had to ensure that there

no actions would allow other nations to even perceive any shift in this balance

of power. This line of reasoning is what forced the

United States into action during the Cuban missile crisis and is also what

forced it to intervene in Vietnam. Both of these situations had the same basic

goals of maintaining United States position of power by preventing other

nations from gaining to much power.

It wasnt about winning for religious reasons, it was about keeping the power which we had established after the second world war. Pure and simple. 

 
Well said.

Religion can be a terrible tool in the wrong hands, but that's not at all what it's about.

And no, I'm not religious... but I'm not a hater either. I will engage in a debate over morality, evolution, ID, the existence of god, etc. if I am provoked, but otherwise people can believe what they want to believe and I will do the same. Believing in something is very important.
 
Riddle me this...

Problem of evil, is God really all-loving and merciful? Considering that he is only meeting/answering to his own arbitrary standards of what is right and wrong. If I were to meet my own arbitrary standards, and such a standard was that eating babies was completely justifiable, am I all-loving and merciful? If He is omnipotent and omniscient, why does he allow such evil in the world, and can we claim that He is indeed all-loving and merciful considering he is merely meeting his own standards?

Here is a common situation: A house catches on fire and a six-month-old baby is painfully burned to death. Could we possibly describe as "good" any person who had the power to save this child and yet refused to do so? God 'undoubtedly' has this power and yet in many cases of this sort He has refused to help. Can we call God "good" or "merciful"? Are there adequate excuses for his behaviour? I think not.

And don't respond along the lines of 'I trust and place my faith in God' because that only states how stubborn you are; it has no bearing whatsoever on the question of God's goodness or mercifulness.
 
you explained it yourself... the problem of evil...

along with belief in god comes belief in satan...

satan has alot of power in the world also...

earth is not paradise... if it was there would be nothing to achieve here in order to be accepted into heaven...

god is not here to be a superman type character and rescue everyone... sure a 6 month old child burning in a fire is unfortunate...

there will always be suffering on this earth... always has and always will...

heaven promises no suffering whatsoever...

i hope you get to experience it...
 
OK, Satan. The traditional conception of God attributes him with omnipotence, meaning that he is infinitely powerful. A common argument for Satan still existing is that he is also infinitely powerful; how can two omnipotent beings exist in the same universe, unless they are one in the same? The mere suggestion of God and Satan being the one entity offends/contradicts a lot of Christian's beliefs. My objection is thus: God is omnipotent, two infinitely powerful beings cannot exist in the same universe, hence Satan cannot be omnipotent. Christianity assures its followers that God and Satan are two seperate beings, so why hasn't God smoten Old Nick once and for all?

As for Heaven, would earthly misery be justified by the compensation of eternal happiness? What's the good of something if you can't have it until you die?

 
i did not say satan was omnipotent i said he was powerful... and what is to even say that two omnipotent beings couldnt exist in one universe?

the concept of heaven and hell do not comply with the universe... if god created the universe then heaven is obviously not part of it...

heaven and hell are not places with a measuable sq. ft. or that could be reached by astronauts somewhere or something...

its a state of being that your soul will enter, another dimension if you will... for lack of a better term...

not your actual physical body... your inner soul...

 
and it doesnt matter if you "dont have it untill you die" your missing the main factor....

ETERNAL life vs. finite life

compared to eternity our life on earth isnt even measureable...
 
If God is Omnipotent

Could he create a stone so heavy that even he

could not lift it?" If so, then it seems that he could cease to

be omnipotent; if not, it seems that he was not omnipotent to

begin with.

(1) Either God can create a stone which He cannot lift, or He cannot create a stone which He cannot lift.

(2) If God can create a stone which He cannot lift, then He is not omnipotent (since He cannot lift the stone in question).

(3) If God cannot create a stone which He cannot lift, then He is not omnipotent (since He cannot create the stone in question).

(4) Therefore God is not omnipotent.

Omnipotence implies that God can lift anything, therefore it is

illogical to say God can make a stone which He cannot lift. It is

however logical to say if God can lift anything, then he is not capable

of making a stone He cannot lift. Because He cannot make a stone He

cannot lift, omnipotence is negated.

(btw I'm not trying to make an argument here, I have christian beliefs and the like, but this is a good discussion)

 
Thanks for reminding me!

If God's omnipotence is questionable as The Stone Paradox suggests, it does no good to assert that God may not be all-powerful and thus not able to prevent evil. He can create a universe and yet is conveniently unable to do what the fire department can do; referring to my previous example, rescue a baby from a burning building. God should at least be as powerful as a man. A man, if he had been at the right place and time, could have killed Hitler. Was this beyond God's abilities? If God knew in 1910 how to produce polio vaccine and if he was able to communicate with somebody, he should have communicated this knowledge. He must be incredibly limited if he could not have managed this modest accomplishment. Such a God if not dead, is the next thing to it. And a person who believes in such a ghost of a God is practically an athiest. To call such a thing a god would be to strain the meaning of the word...
 
Hey, Bojangles... You're WAY off theologically speaking.

Satan, as you know, was once an angel who revolted against God. As an angel, Lucifer is a created being. Thus, the distance between him and God in terms of power is about as far you can possibly get. God and Satan are never said to be equals, so I have no idea why you're even arguing that. As for why Satan is still around, it has nothing to do with the fact that God cannot finish it, it has to do with it not being the time to do so. It is said in Scripture that God will inevitably smite Satan, it's already a done deal, it is merely not the time yet to do so.

Oh, and I find it quaint that you bring up the stone paradox, which I have explained to you already... A bit hard of reading, you might say.

God, being omnipotent, can do everything... that is possible. Therefore, God being by definition who he is, cannot create anything that goes against his very definition, and there cannot exist anything that counters his definition, not by any failure of power, but merely because it is an absolute impossibility, an impossibility that cannot ever be resolved by any means.

It is the same as saying that God cannot create a 4 sided triangle. Although omnipotent, it is an absolute impossibility for a four sided triangle to exist once the definition has been set. Therefore, a stone that would contradict the power of God simply cannot exist in the same reality at once. Like you almost said yourself, and i will say: an irresistible force cannot exist along side an immovable object by logical necessity.

It is no shortcoming of Gods to not be able to make a stone so big he cannot lift it, it is merely an impossibility given one or the other. Two all powerful beings can exist at once, two all powerful but opposite beings cannot. There is no problem with Satan, and there is no problem with the rock.
 
The argument for evil being in the world even with an all powerful and supposedly loving in the world is readily explained in the Bible, in the very first book.

According to the Bible, what was once a "very good" creation became separated from this original plan through the rebellion of humans against God. From that point on, the world went haywire, with natural disasters, death and destruction. The fact that we live at all is the miracle on the flip side of all the despair.

God did not intend (don't read did not foresee) for this to happen, and thus, cue John 3:16.

So, while you can point fingers at all the trouble in the world, and say that God doesn't care if he exists, the fact that people survive, that we can experience any amount of joy and fulfillment, is testament to God not abandoning his creation.

Oh, and what's the point of not having something good until you die in heaven? Instant gratification a big thing for you?
 
UPDATE: GOING TO  CHANGE ALL OF YOUR OPINIONS!!

will wesson is no longer the biggest chicken in the world... EVERYONE IN THIS THREAD IS!

cluck...

cluck.....

bugock!
 
what do u mean like severely handicapped as in they cant make up their mind or they do seriously have a problem....
 
And we're back where we started. God can't be proven or disproven, which is fine. It's not that important of a deal to our current reality anyways.
 
ok, so ive officially decided to make up my own religion

rule 1: smoike ganja as much as you can afford

rule 2: sex mad bitches

rule 3: ski a bunch

rule 4: listen to metal

if you do that you go to heaven
 
I don't presume to know everything about the universe, and I thought I believed in God for most of my life, but my personal reasoning says, probably not. And thats basically all that I've got. I think that's the most certainty that anyone, regardless of their faith or lack of faith, can have about the issue of God. The problem is, I looked around, thought about the nature of the world, the universe, the conscious within us, what other people think about it, etc. and the strongest words I can say without feeling weird about myself is "probably not." Believers look at a narrow selection of ancient texts, and somehow are convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that their beliefs are the one truth. I can't know whats in the mind of every athiest, and I'm equally sure that you can't either, but I can gaurantee you that being athiest doesn't mean that you believe in nothing. I mean, look up in the sky once in a while, or even just look around where you are right now. The beauty and the elegance of galaxies in space, the balance of ecosystems, all that stuff is pretty amazing to me. So to say I believe in nothing could not be further from the truth. Not to say I focus only on the here and now, but there is an entire universe of stuff physically out there for us to study and learn, and our lives are short, I just see it as a waste of time to look for answers when you constrain yourself to a preformed mindset of christianity, or any other religion. Lastly, if you think that God is your only reason to do good in the world instead of bad, you've got serious problems. Plenty of people work to benefit mankind because they feel good about doing the right thing, not because they are scared of going to hell.
 
well, some would say that we make the foolish assumption that we know who is supposed to die on this planet and who isn't. To say that, God shouldn't have allowed X evil to happen, in logical terms would be like a single cell of bacteria coming up to you and telling you that it knows more about how to be a human than you do. You couldn't even begin to explain the complexities to a being with such limited capacities.
 
First off, you've raised some excellent contentions, this will be hard to respond to and I hope you read it.

You've just described the Augustinian Theodicy, Augustine holds firmly to the Hebrew-Christian conviction that the universe is good - that is to say, it is the creation of a good God for a good purpose. There are, according to Augustine, higher and lower, greater and lesser goods in immense abundance and variety; however, everything that has being is good in its own way and degree, except insofar as it has become spoiled or corrupted. Evil has therefore not been set there by God but represents the going wrong of something that is inherently good.

As it originally came forth from the hand of God, then, the universe was a perfect harmony as the first book of the bible suggests. The 64,000 dollar question is, then, how did evil come about? It came about initially in those levels of the universe that involve free will; the free will of the angels and of human beings. We all know what happens. Therefore, this fall of angelic and human beings was the origin of moral evil or sin. The natural evils of disease, famine, earthquakes, etc. are the penal consequences of sin, however the distinction between, and problems with, natural and moral evils I'll leave be.

The Augustinian theodicy adds, as you believe, that at the end of history there will come the judgement , where many will enter into eternal life and many others (who have exercised their free will and rejected God's offer of salvation) into eternal torment. Augustine concludes that since there is happiness for those who do not sin, the universe is perfect; and it is no less perfect because there is misery for sinners; the penalty of sin corrects the dishonour of sin. Here, he is invoking a principle of moral balance according to which sin that is justly punished is thereby cancelled out and no longer regarded as marring the perfection of God's universe.

The purpose, and problem, with this argument is to clear the creator of any responsibility for the existence of evil by loading that responsibility without remainder upon the creature, us. Evil stems from the culpable misuse of creaturely freedom in a tragic act, of cosmic significance, in the prehistory of the human race.

I hope that is theoligically accurate so that my following objections make sense.

The basic criticism of this theodicy, the most steadfast and common theodicy of Christianity, is directed at the the idea that a universe which God has created with absolute power, so as to be exactly as God wishes it to be, containing no evil of any kind, has nevertheless gone wrong. It is true that the free creatures who are part of it are free to fall. However, since they are finitely perfect, without any taint or trace of evil in them, and since they dwell in a finitely perfect environment, they will never in fact fall into sin. Thus, it is said, the very idea of a perfect creation's going wrong spontaneously and without cause is a self-contradiction. It amounts to the self-creation of evil out of nothing! Not even Augustine had the answer for why some angels, in particular one, fell by their apparently evil will.

The basic criticism, then, is that a flawless creation would never go wrong and that if the creation does in fact go wrong the ultimate responsibility for this must be with its creator, for God is where the buck stops. Considering it was logically possible for God to have created free beings who would never in fact fall, this is a significant criticism of the Augustinian Theodicy. Another theodicy, the Irenaean Theodicy, argues that although God could have created bengs who were perfect from the beginning finitely perfect, God has not in fact done so because such beings would never be able to become free and responsible sons and daughters of God. For this post, I'll remain on the Augustinian Theodicy.

A second criticism, made in light of human knowledge, is that we cannot today realistically think of the human species as having been once morally and spiritually perfect and then falling from that state into the chronic self-centeredness which is the human condition as we now know it. All the evidence...I repeat, evidence...suggests that humanity gradually emerged out of lower forms of life with a very limited moral awareness and with very crude religious conceptions. Again, it is no longer possible to regard the natural evils of disease, earthquakes, and the like as consequences of the fall of humanity, for we now know that they existed long before human beings came upon the scene.

The arguments a priori and subsequently a posteriori above are common responses to the Augustinian Theodicy, your apparent position alongside your christian brethren. However, there is one more criticism I'd like to raise: The eternal torment in hell, a fate that awaits a large proportion of the human race, including yours truly. Since such punishment would never end, it could serve no constructive purpose. On the contrary, it is said, it would render impossible any solution to the problem of evil, for it would build both the sinfulness of the damned, and the nonmoral evil of their pains and sufferings, into the permanent structure of the universe; the creation of a good god, for a good purpose, I think not.

 
I very much enjoyed reading that, and this especially:

"Considering it was logically possible for God to have created free beings who would never in fact fall, this is a significant criticism of the Augustinian Theodicy."

It is, in fact, not logically possible, so there we are. The idea that evil exists with a benevolent God is a tricky one, but the possibility of evil must have existed for creation to be fulfilled in a Goldy way and for human beings to be created in God's image.

Indeed, like you said, free will is where it all comes together. If God had wanted to create free beings, companions in humans, the only way to do so is to give them the free will to choose to love him or to reject him. If they in fact had no choice, they would merely be adoration puppets, which is no act of a good God. Without free will, humans could not have had communion with God. If you force your peers to be your friends, you do not have true friends. Thus, free will must have existed for the relationship God wanted to have with humans to be fulfilled. With free will comes the inherent possibility of evil. Thus evil was not created out of sheer nothing, but by logical necessity a direction the world could take if God was truly benevolent and humans made in His likeness. Without free will, the world cannot have been good.

Now, I would like you to show me your empirical proof for the evolution in terms of ultimate origins. I'll be waiting. Right now, all we have is the here and now proof, with extrapolation along an evolutionary time line that we have not observed, cannot reproduce, and thus does not fall into bona fide science. It's a good guess, but show me your empirical data and i'll be more inclined to believe it.

I would also like to argue that humans, in fact, DO have a trace of memory as to a better time, a better place. Who are you to say as the spawn of an evolutionary accident that this world is not in fact perfect? How is it that evil is so horrible, that death is so abhorrent, and that you feel that these things are not good? Where would that concept come from if your thought process and logic is invariably bound to the system you were produced by? I would like to submit that people feel the horror of evil in comparison to a gut instinct that the world could and perhaps was in fact a better place. Voltaire argued extensively against people who argued that this is the best of all possible worlds. This simple comment shows an idea that this world could in fact be ameliorated, and a lot of your argumentation stems from the idea of a benevolent God not allowing for it.

But as we've seen evil is necessary given free will. Thus your concept of evil being a bad thing stems from an idea that evil was not built in to the system as the normal course of things, but that it is very much against the goodness that once existed. The idea of a better world cannot come from the world, it must be outside of the system. I believe this is our Godlikeness speaking to us.

 
and thats the reason they hate you,

standing at a street corner screaming atheists are moronic or what'ev is only going to drive them farther away from you, and your religion.

i'm a Christian and i really don't care if you are an atheists or anything else. i'm not going to tell you your wrong, that just makes them hate you more.

the only way somebody is ever going to become a Christian is by wanting to become one, not by somebody telling them they are a moron.
 
yup exactly. becoming a christian so they dont get called a moron is pointless. your not doing it for your own good, rather to suit to your peers
 
If god is omnipotent he has the power to change everything he wants, the past, the present and the future.

Therfore he would have known that Adam and Eve would be tempted by the snake and eventually eat it. Why therefore did he not interven and make everyone free and happy?

just putting this out their
 
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