Help me pick a car!

i'd say an F150, they're so fucking baller and well i love trucks..starts at $21K

but if you want something smaller get the volvo C30, i love love love them..starts at $24K
 
I mean i try to heel toe a lot, or kinda double clutch without the full on double clutch (double clutching is technically like clutch neutral release, revv shift, right? i just shift but hold the clutch when i revv?), but i can't do it alllll the time. i guess i should start practicing

but i said its not practical because its just a pain in the ass. i mean isnt it just an inconvenience? do all higher end cars require this? (Ferraris, lambos, ect)

 
Why would it be the synchros? when you engage the clutch, then shift into gears that arent spinning, the synchro will bring those gears to the match wheels before the dog teeth lock in with the gear itself.

when you release the clutch and don't revv match, your attaching the non spinning engine to the spinng transmission after the synchros have already done their job and are out of the way. This will cause stress on the engine.

i dont get how this really effect the synchros
 
You're throwing your money away on an American car (rapid depreciation, mechanical problems). Domestic engineering is decades ahead of anything American. If you want bang for your buck get and something that will last you for years on end get a Toyota

thank me later

 
http://hondaswap.com/general-tech-articles/what-double-clutching-3515/

Right, except that the synchros haven't already done their job. They are changing the gears to match the difference between spinning engine rpm's and the speed your gears are spinning. They take the force of the blow not the gears. So if you haven't rev matched then thats where you get the torque shock.

I don't know if you have to do this in higher performance cars, I am not too good with them. I would imagine they use a different system because of the paddle-shift set up.

And you had the right idea with the double clutch. The heel-toe allows you to rev match without double clutching and is really easiest to do if you have adjustable pedals. You try and align the brake and the gas and then turn your foot diagonally as you brake. As you push in the clutch and are braking, you are also increasing the rpm's of the engine by hitting the gas at the same time. If you get good enough at it you can rev match really well, you complete your shift, let off the brake and clutch and away you go. This technique is used much more for downshifting in to turns than anything else.
 
The same thing could be said about other foreign cars, so please shut the hell up about domestic cars being unreliable, or dont post anything at all. He obviously wants a domestic car, simple as that.
 
it's honestly not hard to do at all once you get the hang of it. most people rev match when going into corners and what not. but basically it's no inconvenience at all if you're used to doing it.
 
no no, the synchros only work when your shifting, and when your shifting, your foot is on the clutch and the engine is not attached to the transmission. so the sychro is matching the gear with the wheels only.

the point of a true double clutch (shift into neutral, then shift into gear) is that you dont have synchros. You need to shift into neutral so that the engine IS connected to the transmission, then you rev to match the gear with the dog teeth of the collar (attached to the wheels), then shift into gear while the gear and collar are spinning in unison

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission1.htm

read through that. it will really enlighten you. I learned stick so much quicker because i actually understood what i was doing because i read all this

 
Did you read the link that I showed you? There are two halves to the tranny essentially. So when you don't revmatch, the engine half has to correctly align with the gear half. The synchros have to do the work to get this done. If you double clutch, you match the engine half to the gear half, thus the synchros don't have to do the work to get it to match.
 
nah don't get this, its been out for long enough that a re-designed version should be coming out pretty soon, nothing worse than buying a new car right before the new generation of the same model comes out....
 
dont get a c30 its nice but a rip volvo's arn't made the way the used to be... get a 09 wrx at the beginning of 2010

will be cheap and baller
 
no i read it, but its basically saying what im saying. When you engage the clutch, the gears stop moving, so when you the shift, the non moving gears have to be synchronized with the moving wheels. Now if you shift into neutral and rev, your giving the gears a running start and making the synchro do less work

BUT, it should be the same with any car. Lambo, STi, toyota carola, that will happen. you shouldnt be blowing out your synchros more regularly in an STi than a carola

but your saying when you release the clutch and you dont rev match, your putting stress on the synchros. that isnt true. By the time you release the clutch, your gear and collar are already locked up by the dog teeth and the synchros have done their job. If they arent locked up by the dog teeth, then your not in gear.
 
Ya I made that confusing and said it wrong. Either way though, the synchros are still responsible for bringing both halves in to alignment are matching the rpms of the gears, thus they take the force if the revs aren't matched.

The reason a STi can blow out synchros a lot faster than say a carola is because of design and because of torque.
 
no, the synchro is not for both halves. it is strictly for the wheel half and the middle, once the synchro does its job, THEN you release the clutch.

There is a difference between double clutching and revv matching. you double clutch on a car without synchros or to make the synchros job easier. THEN, once your in gear and the synchros did their job, you rev match the engine to match to transmission so that when the spinning transmission attaches to the engine, the car doesnt jerk but instead goes smoothly.

its really 4 parts. engine, clutch, transmission, wheels. it all starts from the back up.
 
When you are double clutching you rev match before the car is in gear to get the transmission and the engine spinning at the same speeds, so that when the synchros attach to the gears everything is already at speed so there is no torque on the synchros. Double clutching requires rev matching, they aren't two different concepts. Reread those links and it should make more sense.
 
nooooooo, why do you think you put the car in neutral when you double clutch but you can heel toe when your revv matching?

they are two different thigns!!!!!111one111!!!

you double clutch to match you synchro and wheels

THEN you rev match to match your engine to the transmission

big difference man. there is usually two revvs involved in double clutching. the rev to match the sychro and gear, then the rev to match the engine to the transmission
 
No there is only one rev match in double clutching. You have it confused. You don't rev match twice.

"How do I double clutch? I never thought you'd ask.

1. Push clutch pedal down

2. Shift to neutral

3. Lift clutch pedal up

4. "Blip" throttle to raise engine speed, "engine half" transmission speed

5. Push clutch pedal down

6. Shift into lower gear

7. Lift clutch pedal up

That's it.

If you did it right, you "blipped" the throttle just the right amount so your engine is at the exact right rev level to match up for the lower gear. Your synchros have less work to do (or none), so your transition to the lower gear is smoother, you effect less wear on the synchros (they don't have to work to match gear speed between the two "halves", you did that), and you effect less wear on the engine as well.

Someone asked me why you have to let the clutch back out before you "blip" the throttle, and here is the reason. The goal of blipping/tapping the throttle is to raise the rotational speed of the "engine half" of your transmission- your engine speed going up is what causes this to happen. Making your engine rev faster is just the way you effect the rise in transmission speed (in the "engine half")... if you could make the transmission rev faster on the "engine half" without revving the engine, that would theoretically work as well. If you rev the engine while the clutch is open (pedal down), then you're just raising the rotational speed of the engine, and not the "engine half" of the transmission. Just opening the clutch (pedal down) and revving the engine to where it needs to be, then shifting and closing the clutch (pedal up) isn't double clutching- but it still helps to reduce wear on your engine and transmission. Why? Your synchros still have to work to match the transmission speeds, but they don't have to work to rev the engine up to where it's supposed to be. On the engine side, your engine isn't being 'forced' to run at a higher rev as soon as you let the clutch out, so its wear is reduced as well."

The second half explains why heel-toe works.
 
yes, the whole point of everything said there is to ease the work of the synchro

the point is shift into neutral and release the clutch. now, when you rev, the engine will spin the gears. so now when you shift into, lets say 4th, but your foots still on the clutch, the gear is spinning and the synchro doesnt have to synch, or do as much work to synch

now, the next thing to do is release the clutch, when you release the clutch, you want to rev again so that the engine is synchronize with the transmission (the gears which are now spinning because they are attached to the wheels) so that its smooth when the clutch connects.

 
Not all domestic cars are unreliable. That's not what he's saying. But the fact is that on average, foreign car companies produce cars that have better fuel efficiency, more reliability, better resale value, etc., than their American counterparts.

Saying that doesn't mean you're anti-American either. I will say this, the American companies (specifically Ford) are doing a great job of catching up to foreign competitors.

OP: Now I'm done; get back to making a decision on your American car. Unfortunately I can't help you there.
 
Well of course you are giving it gas as you release the clutch after the neutral rev match... but that isn't considered a rev match.

Anyways I know what I am talking about and I think we are both just explaining the same thing in two semi-different ways. I'm done with this for now. The main point was that if you downshift on a STi without rev matching you do damage to the tranny because of the engine torque that isn't there with something like a civic.

Back to my quantum mechanics homework. /shudder
 
downshifting or even upshifting will only cause damage to the engine or the transmission as a whole. not the synchros.

i would love to draw this out for you.
 
Looks like a sweet car. That test track is South of Mammoth out in the mountains around Mojave. I see test cars out there all the time.

To the OG, have fun with your American car. When we had a Suburban it was in the shop at least once every two months. Luckily it was under warranty, otherwise we would have a shitload less money now. Never again will we buy another American car and after they robbed us of those billions of dollars, I am convinced that I will never buy an American car. Go ahead and get it so you don't get shit, but when your bank account is empty, and insurance is nice and high, you will be regretting it.
 
Nah man thats not entirely true. Go do some more looking around. Yes you can damage all the parts, but you will be doing proportionally more to the synchros cause of their job. Anyway, I'm done with this. Good discussion.
 
i mean mainly the engine and tranny

but when the stick is in first gear, the sychro is no longer doing anything what so ever, its only going from neutral to first that the synchro does anything. after that, any torque or pressure would be put on the dog teeth of the collar attached to the gear

it was a good discussion. im right though ;)
 
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

those are MAD old synchros!!!!

bro, that one went in, then caught on some piece of metal and thats why there was a huge torque shock

synchros today are more like cones, they dont catch any metal, as the cone goes in, it touches the gear and they rub so it starts moving the gear and eventually up to the speed that the synchro is moving, and at that point, the dog teeth catch and the synchro has done its job

heres a good picture of new synchros

transmission-synchronizer.gif

 
Dude its the same principle. Yes I know those pics are old but it is still the same concept. Here is another article:

"The synchronizer[2] has to change the momentum of the entire input shaft and clutch disk. Additionally, it can be abused by exposure to the momentum and power of the engine itself, which is what happens when attempts are made to select a gear without fully disengaging the clutch. This causes extra wear on the rings and sleeves, reducing their service life. When an experimenting driver tries to "match the revs" on a synchronized transmission and force it into gear without using the clutch, the synchronizer will make up for any discrepancy in RPM. The success in engaging the gear without clutching can deceive the driver into thinking that the RPM of the layshaft and transmission were actually exactly matched. Nevertheless, approximate "rev-matching" with clutching can decrease the general delta between layshaft and transmission and decrease synchro wear."

From wikipedia. Its always the synchros that are taking the torque, not the gears, which is why synchros go bad.
 
i assume that you think when you car jerks from down shifting or something, the jerk is being transferred to the synchro. that is where you are wrong.

the sychro does eventually wear because its used so often, but it is never stressed from the jerk of downshifting. just, over time, it wears out from the repeated use.

yes, that article is correct, but it is not saying the same thing that you are saying
 
your full of it. Yes your right about torque being the main factor of destruction but subarus are a bitch, they loose compression faster than any other four cylinder on the market. They have two head gaskets which makes it even more of a bitch and they vibrate everything like crazy. You think your a badass rev matching but you don't need to do it to save your tranny buddy, the only time you need to do it is when you don't have sychros anymore. Rev matching every time is a very meticulous way to "save your synchros" Most dudes who tune just replace the sychros or if they have the money get a rally gear box.
 
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