Guns

.scott.

.scott.

Active member
ok, i read this just now. i'm not going to tell you where i found it. i'm not going to tell you how i feel about it. it may be that i agree entirely, and it may be that i find the imposed logic to be laughable. i want to see how you guys react to it. it's not that long so give it a go and respond.

The Virginia Tech shootings occurred

shortly before this article went to press. This tragedy runs far deeper

than the obvious. The shootings are but one symptom of what is wrong

with the mindset and thought processes of all too many people.

The second tragedy that day was that there was no one shooting

back. Any potential heroes were disarmed by the school's "no guns"

policy. Ironically, just last year the Virginia General Assembly failed

to pass a bill that would have enabled the carry of guns on campus.

School officials hailed the decision by proclaiming that students and

faculty "can feel safe" knowing that there are no guns on campus.

The reality is that there are guns on campus--guns in the hands of

criminals. That is the problem with "gun-free zones": They make the

uninformed feel better when, in fact, they create victim-disarmament

zones, or what I call "criminal empowerment zones."

Just as a burglar will pick a home without a noisy dog,

someone bent on human destruction will choose a location where their

heinous crimes can be carried out unfettered by the return gunfire of

potential victims. That's why shooting rampages don't take place at

police stations or gun ranges. Israel solved the problem of school

attacks by arming teachers. Hijackings of Israel's EL AL airliners

ceased when armed marshals were placed on every flight.

The most astonishing tragedy was the lack of survival mindset of the

victims. Forensic evidence shows that many victims had wounds

consistent with attempts to shield themselves, but there were no

defensive wounds on the shooter. That tells us that the victims did not

fight back and allowed themselves to be executed. Their absence of

survival mindset is a testament to our liberal society's powerful and

successful campaign to train us not to think for ourselves, not to act

for ourselves and to rely on others for our safety and well-being.

The Virginia Tech tragedy is an illustration of liberal ideology at its

worst. In this case the consequence of not shooting back was

death.--David Kenik
 
its just an american having an excuse to carry a gun, that said its true...but you know you can move up here to canada where no one was guns!
 
I think that security guards should have guns but not teachers. some guards at my school carry guns, they are really more like resource officers but they have tasers and guns. i got the taser pointed at me one day when all these dark people started yelling "EAST SIDE"
 
Ok, so hear me out when I say this guys.

Guns are a good thing, but even though there was a guy walking around on campus shooting people that doesn't mean that the Virginia State government should pass laws allowing people to carry firearms onto a campus.

Granted could have something been different, were there other people with guns? Maybe, but then again, what about all that lead. So you have a situation with people all over the place and a select few people shooting at one guy with a gun. Where is all that lead going, because Im sure there wasn't any trained sharpshooters casually walking around with a Springfield M1A that day.

That lead is flying in every direction, you would have to think about the possible collateral damage that could be done if everyone on campus was packing. And how would the cops know who to shoot at? It would only further the situation in the wrong direction and more people would most likely be injured.

The truth is that it was the schools fault for not having more armed officers and sentries on campus. It is the schools job to protect the students.

More lead does not equal a safer campus, more lead equals more bodies.

I'm a gun enthusiast and by that I really like guns, big ones, small ones, whatever you got. But if the school allowed people to carry firearms then you would have a massacre waiting to happen.

The school instead should have a well trained and well payed RDF on campus that would be able to spring into action immediately and neutralize the threat.

 
I'm not sure where but some city in georgia gave all the citizens guns and the crime rate dropped to almost 0. criminals knowing that they are not the only ones that have guns have no desire to do wrong. this should happen in more places to prove it is right.
 
This was probably the dumbest proposition I have ever heard. Imagine a institution of higher education where everybody carries a gun. Sounds really appealing, doesn´t it?

I will never fully understand americans obsession with guns. I can´t even imagine a society where you are supposed to own a gun to feel safe when they are the reason you feel unsafe in the first place.

 
so clearly the solution is that everyone should carry guns. that makes perfect sense. there is zero reason why any non law enforcement officer should be allowed to possess a handgun or any type of automatic weapon. rifles and or shotguns are acceptable because they can be used for hunting purposes, and it is extremely hard to conceal them so that is what they would be used for. however handguns serve no purpose. if they were outlawed entirrley i believe a large portion of the gun violence in this country would be eliminated.
 
"The most astonishing tragedy was the lack of survival mindset of the

victims. Forensic evidence shows that many victims had wounds

consistent with attempts to shield themselves, but there were no

defensive wounds on the shooter. That tells us that the victims did not

fight back and allowed themselves to be executed. Their absence of

survival mindset is a testament to our liberal society's powerful and

successful campaign to train us not to think for ourselves, not to act

for ourselves and to rely on others for our safety and well-being."

biggest load of shit I have ever read. if I knew anyone who got killed in this shooting I would punch this fucking idiot in the face for criticizing some poor scared shitless college students for not fighting back.
 
Yesss... i totally agree. its not that i am a Hick. but i believe that there should be some way to protect yourself. maybe not bring guns to school but at least have SRO's on campus. Stupid liberals always trying to fuck up America.
 
That's funny I just read that earlier tonight, and then saw it here. The defensive wounds thing smells of douchebaggery, but other than that the guy's probably right. Most of the country acts like armed college students is this extreme idea, but just come to the U of Utah, and it's happening, anyone with a permit can carry concealed on campus. I think a college student that gets a concealed permit and carries on campus is a little weird, but I definitely don't feel threatened by them, and I think it's better than having a no-gun policy.
 
yup outlawing handguns will solve all of the problems.  just like when the government outlawed alcohol during prohibition, that really made it impossible to get alcohol in the USA.  and i am sure that criminals looking to murder are going to say "oh shit i guess i cant go kill someone with a gun there, thats a gun free zone, dont want to break that law too."  

seriously people, step back and think a minute and stop regurgitating the bullshit fed into your heads.  i am sure you all think that the 2nd amendment is outdated, as we no longer are required to hunt for our food.  

guns dont kill people, people kill people, dont blame the object for the actions of a person. 

so i am going to stop rambling now and let someone speak that you all might find a little more credible.

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself.  They are the American people's liberty, teeth, and keystone under independence.  The church, the plow, the praire wagon, and citizens' firearms are indelibly related.  From the hour the pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that, to ensure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable.  Every corner of this land knows firearms, and more than 99 percent of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands.  The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil influence.  They deserve a place of honor with all that's good.  When firearms go, all goes. We need them every hour." -------George Washington 

Ok and one more quote, a little lighter, to end the rant, 

"A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." ---Sigmund Freud    

 

 
^addressing this post cause i cant quote it

sorry dude, I am not for serious gun control, but I dont hide behind

arguments such as this. the reason I think we shouldnt outlaw guns is

because guns are fun to shoot, we need them should the government ever

get out of control, and outlawing them wouldn't make an incredible

amount of difference. i wish people who are against gun control could

just admit that they like guns and don't use them for anything

dangerous, and dont want to lose them. theres nothing wrong with

that. you dont have to say the world is such a better place with guns.

but guns and alcohol are very different. alcohol can be made by

anyone. so can guns, you say? yeah, zip-guns, that fire one shot and

are very inaccurate. and you still need bullets.

what george washington is saying is a lot more relevant to the 1700s. sigmund freud is a crackpot, also.

you cannot make the argument that we are safer with guns. if you feel

safer if everyone on campus is packing heat, youre fucking crazy. i

have gotten in so many almost-fights with assholes at my school, none

of them started by me. some guns added to the mix would be great! thats just what we need, a bunch of students

having a firefight on campus, because thats definitely not going to

turn out badly.

guns make it much easier to kill someone, and I dont want to hear some

bullshit about how a knife/cup of gasoline with a lighter is just as

easy. but guns also make it so that you can protect against people

that are physically stronger and who dont happen to have a gun, which

is good. a lot of people could probably beat me up, and if i lived in

a bad area a gun might make me feel a little safer.

when it comes down to it, banning guns is unfair for responsible gun

owners, and leaves us defenseless against the government. thats good

enough for me.
 
Ooh, why did not I think about that. The reason why USA has one of

the highest gun homicide rate in the world is that people do not own

enough guns.

Seriously, drop the brainwashed gun-lobbyism and think about it. How

could more people owning more guns ever contribute to a safer society?

You will never be able to fully protect yourself against terroristacts

like the one at Virginia Tech. If everyone carríes a gun the killers

will use bombs or something else. Blowing themselves up in a classroom

full of students will probably cause more dead. The problem lies within society and I think that much stricter gun laws is one step in the right direction.

Forbidding people will to carry guns will reduce the number of dead,

period. Murderers and psychopats will still be abe to get guns, sure,

but not beeing able to pick up a Mac10 while you buy your groceries

would make a difference.

Quoting George Washington and Sigmund Freud is as relevant as quoting

Edison in a urban rail debate. GW is talking about USA almost 300

years ago. How is that relevant in a discussion about today?

Guns Kill People. People Kill People and People with Guns Kill even more People.

 
lol like this guy would have actually done anything if he had been in this situation. Seriously that lack of a survival mindset is bullshit, the guy had automatic weapons, this guy is a piece of scum i cant even believe he would try to argue this.
 
i've got to clarify something here. the kid at Va Tech had two semi auto handguns, a 9 mm in one hand and a 22 in the other. not exactly high firepower like it sounds the way this guy right above me makes it sound.
 
Try being a little less Amero-centric and look at the countries beyond your borders to figure out whether stricter gun control will reduce firearm related fatalities. It's as simple as that.
 
And it really doesn't. I feel like it has more to do with your country's overall mindset toward firearms than it has to do with whether they're legal. Making them illegal in the U.S. won't really help the situation. Look at DC. Guns are illegal within the city limits and DC has the highest violent crime rate in the country, so outlawing firearms doesn't translate directly into a decrease in violent crime or even gun crime.

I was talking to the chief of campus police the other day at school, and he was saying that he agreed that students should be allowed to carry handguns on campus if they are properly licensed. Even if it is allowed, it will never become the sort of thing where EVERYONE carries a gun, it will still be a matter of personal preference just like the way some people keep guns in their houses and some don't. The only difference in this situation is that if level headed, licensed individuals are allowed to carry them, there is the potential to save lives. Oh yeah, and my school is in VA, and my campus police chief is friends with the VTech chief, and he says the chief at VT feels the same way.
 
so i'm revealing my stance of this now...i don't know which way JD was trying to argue because it's ambiguous but what i will offer is the example of finland. it has the highest percentage of gun ownership in all of europe. it also has the lowest rate of violent crime.
 
Quoting GW is more relevant than you think. He may be talking about America 300 years ago but it seems to me that george washington and all those other guys got something right when they started this country.

Please explain to me how guns can kill people with out being used by a person.
 
ok this is where i see a big break in logic in the argument that is presented for gun control. the idea that is put forth is that fewer guns mean fewer gun related incidents, but that is an oversimplified thought process. first of all, handguns do serve a purpose...defense. that is a legitimate purpose, you cannot change that. i have been robbed at gunpoint. i know for a fact that the kid who robbed me did not buy that handgun legally and then register it. but i also know that handguns will always be needed for law enforcement and therefore they will never be completely removed from the system, and if they exist, criminals will have a method to obtain them. increasing the scope of gun laws does little to nothing to deter non-law abiding citizens, while it does aid in disarming those who would have them for purely defensive purposes. i have no problem with many of the ideas that are in place for gun control. requiring a waiting period to buy a handgun is great. requiring training and licensing for concealed carry is a absolutely an intelligent call. with that said, anything that begins to totally disarm those who obey the law is in my opinion ill-conceived. i have multiple friends for have used their guns for defensive purposes. one always carries (he has a concealed weapons permit) and used his piece to stop an assault on a woman in public. another lady i know used her husband gun that was in the bedroom to stop a home invasion. two guys broke in the house during the night and while they pummeled her husband she went and got his handgun and shot one of the attackers he left him to come at her. they found the guys at a hospital later and they were arrested. these type of episodes actually happen pretty often, b/c they are published a lot in gun owner newsletters, but very, very rarely are given any attention by big news outlets, so much of the public never hears of examples guns being useful.
 
That's bullshit though, theres a huge difference between a national ban or gun control policy, and making them illegal within a specific set of city limits. Obviously it's not going to do much to curb the supply of guns if they're still available 15 minutes away. DC is not a legitimate example.

Freud also believed that there were no negative effects of cocaine, so I'm not gonna take his words at face value.

 
"You will never be able to fully protect yourself against terrorist acts like the one at Virginia Tech"

Are you stupid? Do you think that the killer at V Tech would've had a harder time killing people with a bullet in his head? Seriously, terrorists aren't superheroes or anything special. They're just people who are very confused. If people recognize their intent early on, they can be neutralized faster.

"Forbidding people to carry guns will reduce the number of dead, period."

So when the local postman comes to work with an assault rifle, who will be there to stop him? Sure, the police. By the time someone has made the call and the police actually arrive, it's gonna be too late. Outlawing guns does nothing except punish the innocent victims. We'll have a helpless nation in our hands and crime will spiral out of control.

So yeah, we should pass laws which only arm criminals and those with evil intent. Innocent citizens will be able to defend with tear gas and knives no problem, I'm sure of it!
 
ya calvin understands. there is nothing u can do to protect ur selves from terrorist attacks but there is ways that u can prepare for them 
 
Using washington DC as an example is a horrible example, because all you have to do is drive out of the city, and immediately you have gun access.

The same to the person who compared outlawing guns to prohbition. Anyone can produce alcohol, not everyone can produce guns.

To the person who said that outlawing handguns would not solve the problem, look at foriegn countries. England has had handguns outlawed for quite a while THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE COUNTRY, and in turn the number of gun deaths is miniscule compared to in the US. I am not saying that rifles should be outlawed because absolutely people hunt with them and that is acceptable. However the banning of assult weapons and handguns clearly would reduce gun deaths.
 
I think automatic and hand guns should be outlawed from everywhere because the only purpose for those types of guns are killing other humans. It seems so stupid to me that somone can get guns like these from walmart so easily. The only guns that should be sold should be rifles for hunting. If we got rid of all the automatic guns and hand guns being sold their would be alot less problems with shootings in schools and ultimately everywhere. It seems so redicuolous to me that these guns are so easily available to anyone. These stupid fuckin rednecks are the ones to blame for this shit because their the ones that support the NRA
 
Even though I live in Canada right now, I think it's obvious I'm American (because of how much better I am at everything), so I always carry my gun to defend against potential terrorist threats. Haven't you seen 24? Guns save lives!
 
did you know that in switzerland almost everyone has a gun, yet there is hardly any gun violence, and they have the highest per capita income in the world.
 
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Arming students is a stupid idea. I ll give you my reasons

1. Students are NOT to put the law in their own hands. They are not properly trained. The rate of casualties would be higher is everyone would be armed. Not because everyone would be against the criminal, but in the crossfire. Also, people are stupid, especially in a crisis situation. People panic and do retarded shit, like go trigger happy. Only police officers and security agents have proper training in these types of situation.

2.When the police walks into the situation, multiple people will be shooting. So who is the criminal here? they have all opened fire. So the police will believe a group of thugs are the criminals and will be shot. So, students with gun will aggravate the situation.

3.Guns hold authority, a person feels invincible with a weapon, is human psychology. Even if no situation arises, a person may panic and open fire at everyone, increasing school shootings. Some people are fucked out of their minds, a weapon is what put them off. So it will facilitate school shootings.

So, guns at school is more dangerous than keeping them unarmed. Only gun crazy hics and rednecks want to put guns at school.

 
yuppperrrs.

people tend to think that if everyone has a gun then everyone is safe. no. like it was said it just means more bodies.

guns are not a bad thing kids. its the laws and the people behind those guns that are dangerous...

quick little story...

so i live in canada. my bro got a shotgun for his bday so he goes to register it. he ends up losing the regisration numbers for the gun so he does back to get them again, since he figured they would keep the reg. numbers on file right? WRONG. THEY DONT EVEN KEEP THE GOD DAMN NUMBERS OF THE GUN.

so basically, if a cop says anything to you asking if a gun is registered. you could make up a number and technically it is 100% legit beacsue they CANNOT prove otherwise.

that is only the tip of the iceburg to a fucked up system.
 
are people here really argueing to give guns to college students? mixing alcohal and guns is always a good thing.
 
yep, this is so true.

but I dont necessarily think we need to get rid of guns, yeah some people get killed and it sucks but like everyone is saying, america is a violent country. we are violent by nature and tend to kill one another a lot because of our tough-guy attitude problem in this country. also, people die all the time, i personally dont know anyone killed by a gun so I am not gonna support serious gun-control because its another restriction on my freedom.
 
Society 300 years ago does not look anything like society today. The laws we live by should be made for the times we live in. It is as simple as that.

I have a hard time understanding the obsession with guns in USA. Violent history, sure. But there are other countries with far a more violent history and they seem to do fine without all the guns.

 
You're right society 300 years ago does not look anything like society today. But the same principals of our original government need to be upheld because they have made America one of the worlds most powerful nations. Like a said before the founding fathers really knew what was up.

People are going to kill each other no matter what. Haah they've been doing it forever. Guns are fun and useful if you use them carefully. I dont understand why they should be ruined for everyone because a few people abuse the use of them. Thats like banning alchohol because some people drink and drive. Furthermore its one of our rights! Fuck letting them take that away. 
 
yo no matter what a college with everyne packing heat would be fucked up, i'd stay way the hell away from that place.
 
i wish people would stop misconstruing the point that some of us are trying to make. i don't see that it has been said anywhere that everyone should be carrying handguns. never did anyone say that we should arm all college students, yet there are these responses claiming that is what we are proposing and that for doing so we are idiots. ok, i don't appreciate that, because i'm not an idiot. check this out. all we are saying is that we shouldn't create legislation that prohibits all civilians from being able to carry, but we do support the system of requiring licensing and training in order to obtain said licenses. it is very hard to obtain a concealed weapons permit, and once you have one the consequences for any breaking of the law are drastically increased b/c by taking upon yourself the responsibility that comes with said license you must agree to be held to a much higher standard then other citizens. this deters the vast majority of would-be applicants from ever actually obtaining the permission to carry a handgun often and easily because they really aren't devoted to following the law. the training required is based not only on technique for defense and safety but also how to judge situations and understand when it is appropriate to use force to protect either yourself, your family, or others. the example given earlier is the students at Va Tech. if it had been legal for a licensed and trained carrier to have a firearm on campus and had been near the episode, it is possible that he could have taken action that would have limited the damage that the shooter could cause. i would like to point out, that the Va Tech shooter was not trained at all...probably not by anything more than video games, as is shown by how many shots he actually fired and how many were errant. one experienced person in any of those rooms with a single round would have a very good chance of stopping him. of course, having most or even a lot of the students with guns by any means would be unwise, and the system as it is now regulates that. what we want is to make sure that the people who will go through the training and who have shown that they will keep the law can be able to have and carry handguns for defensive purposes, because the time does arise where it can be used and is needed. until there is a failsafe war to ensure that criminals cannot obtain weapons, and therefore law abiding citizens could never be in a position where they are outgunned, there sure as hell better not be legislation that disarms only those who would respect it.
 
^good post

most people on here it seems like think that we are saying everyone should be able to go get a ccw permit, which is totally false.  actually most college students would not even be able to obtain one because of MIPS.  I am not sure if this is the case across the country but i know of several states where a CCW will not be given to someone with a misdemeanor.  also it is important to note the training required for a ccw.  I know several people that have gone through this class, which is several days long, and they said it was very intense.  the classes are not just teaching you gun safety or shooting accuratly, its more about the mental part of having a ccw, and making good decisions under intense pressures.  i dont think any of us on here from the big bad, stupid, ignorant, redneck, hick, dumb fuck, group that supports responsible gun ownership, feel everyone should be able to go out and buy a pistol and carry it concealed.  our views are far from this.  I am not going to speak for the group on this one, but my opinion is that ccws should be equally obtainable across the country, and all states should accept other states ccws.  its a real bitch if you have a ccw in michigan and want to visit montana for a vacation, and are driving, since chicago is a total criminal empowerment zone, and several states deny michigan ccws, even tho montana accepts the permit.  

i really cant even believe how ignorant some of the replys are on here.  i am not going to argue with all that shit, its just not worth my time.  quoting statistics from other countries in regards to "Gun Deaths" in comparison to how easy it is to obtain a gun, is just retarded.  there are so many other factors involved.

In a newsweek article they said that civils shoot and kill twice as many criminals as police do each year.  Also, the article stated that the "error rate" (shooting someone that was innocent) was 2 percent for ccw holders and for police was 11 percent.  Vermot has a genuine right to carry law requiring no permits, and boasts the 49th lowest crime rate in the nation and the 47th lowest murder rate.  More guns really equal more deaths eh?  I could right pages of stats like this, but most of you are going to read the first few lines of this post and then come back and bitch me out for being a stupid redneck so thats a waste of time.  oh and btw all the people i know with ccws are the most responsible, law abiding citizens i know.  they dont drink and drive, they never have even a beer and carry a gun afterwards, etc.  and these people are not the stupid redneck type you all are tagging on these individuals.  the largest group of people i know that carry are female realestate agents, since they are such a target. anyways enough of this

 
i didn't know that was the law in vermont (prob. cause i've always lived out west) but that was a good point. there haven't been any responses to either of our last posts. i hope that's because they made sense.
 
no if you remove guns completely the number of them in the country will be drastically reduced....
 
thank you captain obvious. that was very redundant of you. you have still failed to address the issue of how those who don't obey the law would not be disarmed.
 
ya i definatley agree that a no gun law means that only criminals will have guns and a lack of protection for normal citizens...

but even with VA Tech's military background i dont really think guns on a college campus are the answer. Kids today are much different then kids were back in the day. My dad told me stories about how his High School had a shooting team(go to matches and shoot at targets), today this would be unthought of...

not because of media and tv has warped our minds, but because there are some messed up people out there, i mean look at hitler he never played video games with killing and he was a basket case
 
i wouldn't try to say they are the answer by any means, but that could help in that situation just like any other public setting, if they were allowed in the hands of citizens who would be responsible. we simply don't want to create places where if anything happens, the law-abiders will definitely be outgunned, which is the case when you pass a law and prohibit someone from carrying.
 
i dont trust civilians to do more good than harm in these situations. being in a gunfight is terrifying for most people and they are more likely to aim poorly and fire too many rounds.

guns are necessary in case the government ever got out of control, or another country invaded us. neither of which are likely to happen, but better safe than sorry

 
training is required for the concealed weapons permit, and very rarely will someone carry if they can't have it concealed, so the vast majority of armed civilians in those situations have training. the statistics show that those civvies actually cause unwarranted injuries in a lesser percentage of cases than cops.
 
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