GOD ISNT REAL

i myself believe in evolution. but, that doesn't take away the possibility that god exists. that doesn't take away the possibility that many gods exist. one remark i can make with almost 100% certainty is that in this life, almost anything is possible. therefore, i can believe one thing, and the person next to me can believe a completely different thing. the important thing to understand is that at this moment in time, we as humans have not figured out where we have arrived from. we don't know what will come of us in the afterlife. so until then, i attempt to be as accepting of the views of others as is possible. for, my theories aren't any more right or wrong than the theories of my neighbours.

 
right on brutha, well said. Me too.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
ok I really don't have a whole lot of time to respond to this right now but I go to a Jesuit Catholic High School and as a Catholic, I know that it is perfectly OK to believe under our catechism that God started the chain of evolution, which gradually produced us. Contrary to what some others have said, I do accept evolution as having some validity, for I have been taught it in Biology at my Catholic school, but I think that one can realize that God and evolution aren't mutually exculsive. Ill respond to the rest later when I have time..

------------------------------------------------

-Dave O'Neill

Representing the famed terrain of Ohio and New York
 
'if you have nothing sensible to contribute then why don't you go rape a small rodent or something. Maybe you could help it evolve'

well phattim, that post contributed a bunch to this topic.

you say that people shoud contribute something sensible to this thread, when in the same instance your telling people to go 'eat a dick'. great.

well, there's my rant on that part of the subject.

albert einstein sums it all up;

“During the youthful period of mankind’s spiritual

evolution human fantasy created gods in man’s own image, who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate to influence, the phenomenal world....The idea of God in the religions taught at present is

a sublimation of that old conception of the gods. Its anthropomorphic character is shown, for instance, by the fact that men appeal to the Divine Being in prayers and plead for the

fulfillment of their wishes...In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of

fear and hope which in the past places such vast power in the hands of priests.”

-----------------------

peace--->chris

***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse
 
Wait a fuckin minute, you guys are full of shit, we all fuckin know the Nas is Godson

R. Kelly, R. Kelly, I wanna lick yo bawl sweat

scuse me, escuse me, i need to get by now
 
Um, why do people always have to get so fanatic about this stuff. Who cares what other people believe in. People can believe whatever they want, but some people wont except that, and that is why religion has ruined parts of this world, Northern Ireland, Middle East (Isreal and Palistinians), and has caused countless wars etc. PhattTim, um why dont you accept that some people believe in evolution and may disagree with your views without telling them to 'eat a dick', or other shit about small rodents. Calm down man, wow!, you believe in god, I could care less, it doesn't matter to me what someone believes in, why do you people always care so damn much, I dont care if you think a damn chipmunk created the earth. People should stop sticking their Bibles in other peoples faces, I dont care about your bible or anyone elses bible, realize that. People need to realize that their views are exactly that, THEIR'S.

 
My favorite argument against creationism and religion:

Get ready to think.

1) This is the hardest step but you must imagine absolutely nothing, don't think outerspace without matter, imagine no space, and no matter.

2) Quantam theory holds that probability, not absolutes, rules any physical systems. This is what I was saying before. We don't even have to picture this in terms of time, just in terms of probability, the likeliness of an event to happen, you can have probability w/o time.

3) Anyone who has taken chem has heard about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle. Where you can no the speed of an atom, and not its location, or its location and not its speed. This is one of the problems with atoms, it is IMPOSSIBLE to predict the behavior of a single atom, or even 10 atoms together, we can only predict what happens in a substantial group of atoms. We'll refer to the actions of one particle or atom as uncertainties.

4)Quantam measurements have shown that vacuums are also subject to these same uncertainties. So what does this mean? ahhh yes just as individual atoms in groups of matter appear and reappear... well for lack of better terms you could understand, the same thing happens in vaccuums. Although we can't direcly observe it, when tests are run on the strengths of a known mount of electron activity it shows that these fluctuations and things popping out of n othingness, are indeed real, in fact its happening in space right now. Granted these fluctuations of particles usually only last for 10E-21 seconds.

5) Here comes the kicker, how do we get the universe from having one sustained fluctuation. Well this fluctuation is referred to as a 'false vacuum' the theory is very difficult to understand and i doubt i can really explain it that well, it's not really a vacuum it's a type of matter that acts very strangely. Imagine a gas, as the gas expands, it also disperses. However a false cavuum actually expands and retains its energy without dispersing, meaning it stays concentrated while it expands. This means RAPID EXPANSION, because you're not decreasing the density, only increasing it based on its nature to inflate. Calculations with false vacuums even show that a path of a valse vacuum only 1 billionth the size of a proton would rapidly and exponentially grow to the size of a marble in 10E-34 second!!! That would be exactly like a pea growing to the size of a Milky way... yes I know it sounds strange, but hopefully if I haven't convinced you of how something could come to be, you now have something to go on if you'd like to read about it further.

 
dude, gravtek, that was so long. i thought the heisenberg uncertainty principle was for electrons and not the whole atom itself but i could be wrong. it's been a while since i had chem.

********************

Light a candle and stick it in the microwave. Then turn the microwave on.
 
no, i'm pretty sure it's for atoms.

that's an interesting concept of the false vacuum, i think i'll do some more reading on it.

-----------------------

peace--->chris

***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse
 
Tim, you passive aggressive dank.

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join The Next Big Movement today!

brought to you by the find folks at the PPPP
 
At this point in time the only way I can belive that god is real is if sumone tells me how god came about?

+++++++++++++++++++++++

Suck My Dick ! ! !

--Yes, but do you know the muffin man?--

**In The Land OF The Blind The Man With One Eye Is King**
 
how is that gravteck?

-----------------------

peace--->chris

***Go big or go home**Just Bodagin'***

Proud Member of the Hobum Posse
 
Gravteck. Right now I'm thinking of absolute nothingness. A huge void of complete emptiness. Not a single tiny little particle of anything, just what you said, full on dick all nothing.

Okay, so no matter what probabilities and everything that are working right now, how do you somehow get 'something' from 'nothing'. There's nothing there right? you just said that. nothing. How does nothing turn into something? It just doesn't happen. It's like I just finished my bag of chips and I'm real gutted, I want more but it ain't gonna happen. it ain't never gonna turn into more chips.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
yeah I may be missing something, but I don't see how you get something from nothing. If there's nothing, there's no empty space, much less any atoms or anything to grow into something. There's NOTHING. Now why is there anything today?

 
many of the worlds wars past and present occured over religion.

congrats if you feel you need religion to lead a good life. but dont rub it in the faces of those who dont.

 
Why don't you go rub your face in your ass. didn't you even read the topic of discussion? It says 'GOD DOESN'T EXIST' Sounds like the other way around, more like people who don't want religion trying to rub that in the face of people who do. FOOL!

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
yes, i agree with tim.

holy crap, this thing has more than doubled since first looked at it THIS MORNING. wow.

********************

Light a candle and stick it in the microwave. Then turn the microwave on.
 
When we say nothing, we are talking about nothing that has mass or takes up space. That's what a vacuum is. Essentially I suppose you could say that the vacuum is the space. Space is pretty much nothing. You can't really have absolute nothing because then there wouldn't be space, and then space couldn't come out of something where there seriously is nothing. I don't think that's realistic to say there was ever an absolute nothingness. There's always space. And like empirical measurements have shown the vacuum fluctuations can come from nothing, meaning a vacuum.

 
That's cause religion is a hot-button topic, everyone has an opinion on it, even the people who cop out by saying 'respect other's beliefs man, nobody's right or wrong...'. I respect the fact that you can have your beliefs, but that doesn't mean you can't be wrong as hell, which most of you are. The only way you can believe in God and not be wrong, is if you don't believe in the conventional one, and imagine a God who exists, but hasn't done one single thing that would indicate his presence.

Gravteck, that was really good. I was going to try to go into physics and other principles, but if you haven't actually studied the stuff, it's hard to wrap your mind around, and so I chose to stick to abstract concepts.

And for the love of God (haha), don't say that God could have started evolution, that they can theoretically coexist. WE KNOW THAT, I SAID IT IN THE FIRST POST. Say someting new. Or is it that you fools have run out of rhetoric, and all your arguments have been refuted?

We have an old saying down on the bayou....Blehhhhh!!!
 
Yes but if there isn't complete nothingness then where did that stuff come from? The big bang relies on there being something to cause the explosion. There needs to be matter to support and create new matter. I'm meaning that there is not even anti-matter here, not even a vacuum. Just complete nothingness. Not even space, not even the colour black, just total non-existence.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
I'm saying that space is nothing, and that since we exist it was never possible that there was absolutely complete voided nothing. I'm pretty sure this is sound physics. As long as you can accept that it's possible that there has always been the vacuum of space (which again i think is physically sound...) then the vacuum fluctuation observations support the theory of where matter for the big bang could have came from.

 
gdawg3, do u realize that in your second post that you made, you said 'goddamned evolution thread' if you beleive (or in your case, know,) that there is no god, then why did you say to damn it by god?

'Who wants to put the screws in?'

'I do!'

'No I do! my dad is a mechanic, so I bet I am a lot better at stripping and screwing than you are!'
 
So where did that matter come from? I understand that your points are physically sound, I know you can prove them and I think you have before. But if there was space, and there was a vacuum and there was some matter in there and the vacuum was able to fluctute then where did this all come from? The matter to allow the big bang to happen, where did it come from?

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
Tim, by the same reasoning, where did God come from? A vacuum could just as easily exist as God, even according to your reasoning. And a vacuum is the absence of matter, therefore it doesn't need matter to exist.

And ski_615 or whatever, playing semantics just makes you look like a retard who can't come up with a real argument.

We have an old saying down on the bayou....Blehhhhh!!!
 
I'd have to say that god is like a clockmaker. He makes something and lets it run on its own.

My girlfriend told me to shove my skis up my ass
 
I don't have any idea where God came from, I can't explain that I'm sorry.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
can you people all agree that the theories you're speaking to are just that, theories? they haven't any conclusive evidence, right? by this, it can be shown that creationism is no less incorrect or flawed than evolution is. and i'm certainly not copping out here.. i could get very deep into my beliefs, i simply choose not to.. arguing semantics of theoretical thought will get us nowhere on this board.. it simply illustrates the cyclical nature of life.

 
Yeah dude, I completley accept that, have done right from the beginning. and I would love to get into a deep debate with ya, but yeah, maybe you're right.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
I'm kinda goin with the flow on this one, but who are we to say there was always 'something?' was there always, at least, empty space? for all of eternity? where'd it come from? like I said before, why is there anything? people have been pondering these things forever and they always will; it's cool to talk and think about though.

 
ive got my own little idea on this topic (how god came to be) but its pretty long, and i dont feel the urge to tpe it out now. but if anyone has an urge to hear it, ill tell it.

-all you need are drums to start a dance party-

 
The vacuum fluctuation produces two subatomic particles, one positive and one negative. This is the first sign of any matter. the theory is that the false vacuum produced further subatomic particles, because one characteristic of the false vacuum is that it has an enormous repulsive gravitational field strong enough to explode into a universe. So when the false vacuum starts compounding there is a huge amount of ever doubling energy which decays and reacts w/ the other subatomic particles to turn into a stew of electrons, positrongs, and neutrinos. By the rate of compounding this soup of electrons and positrons and neutrinos heat and neutralize eachother into atoms... in the time of about 300,000 years. Simple atoms like hydorgogen, helium, and lithium were further 'ripped' apart and 'crushed' together to form more complex atoms inside stars and were eventually exploded into space by supernovas. so we start w/ the false vacuum whic hi is an era of quantum gravity->quark soup->origin of protons and neutrons->origin of light atomic nuclei->origin of atoms->first galaxies->on into today. Theoretically the quantum mechanics of vacuum fluctuations actually allow for even a dog or cat to pop into existence, but the probability of subatomic particles sustaining is already low, and the actual high ordered animal is hella unlikely, but it's kinda cool to think about anyway.

 
Tim, you sure do post alot.

America, we love you as the child loves the father who sits slobbering in his corner eating flies and spiders.
 
Yes, yes I do.

Gravteck: Yeah, interesting, I see what you're saying dude. But what about the Cosmological Red Shift? It's due to the Crompton effect rather than the Doppler effect. If the red ship was produced as a result of the Crompton effect then the universe is not expanding at all, it is 'static'.

The oldest and perhaps best known problem of Big Band Theory is that of the singularity. At the first instant of the Big Bang universe, in which its density and temperature were infinitely high, is what is known to mathematicians as a singularity. That situation is considered to be a breakdown of theory. That is, it cannot be assumed that the laws of physics as we know them can apply to that event, thus presenting serious questions about it.

In addition, the postulated creation of the entire mass and energy of the universe out of nothing in the first instant of time, seems to represent an extreme violation of the law of conservation of mass/energy.

If the big bang were to have happened. It would have required an infinate amount of energy right? Accelerating particles to well about light speed which would take an infinite amount of energy to do so. All these accelerating particles would create so much energy that any other particle gaining speed would simply not be able to escape the ever increasing gravitational mass of the center of the 'forming universe', leading to a probable implosion or something, I dunno but they would never be able to escape that energy in the middle.

There is also the problem with age. Most big bag theories predict the universe to be around 10 million years old (give or take 10-15 minutes, hehe). However most observations predict a lot of stars - based on their uranium content and light given off - to be more than 15 million years older. Stars that are older than their alledged creation.

Yeah, so that's some of the issues that I find the most weird and challanging about the big bang. Sorry if I used a tonne of abreviations and stuff in there, is annoying to type that much. But gravteck, you had some good points dude, I'm gonna have to sit down and have a think now.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
In classical physics it seems like this violates the first law of thermodynamics (conservation of energy) and conservation of mass. But in quantum physics:

'But in the quantum microworld, energy can appear and disappear out of nowhere in a spontaneous and unpredictable fashion.' - (Davies, 1983, 162)

And since mass and energy are interchangeable (e=mc^2), the creation of this matter from a vacuum fluctuation doesn't violate those laws.

 
I think I left something out that would be a big mistake on my part. But that just raises the question of where the energy came from. The answer is that the total energy of the universe is exactly zero. The matter in the universe is made out of positive energy. However, the matter is all attracting itself by gravity. Two pieces of matter that are close to each other have less energy than the same two pieces a long way apart, because you have to expend energy to separate them against the gravitational force that is pulling them together. The equation for gravity is actually G = g((m1d1)/(m2d2)) where g is the gravitational constant. Thus, in a sense, the gravitational field has negative energy. In the case of a universe that is approximately uniform in space, one can show that this negative gravitational energy exactly cancels the positive energy represented by the matter. So the total energy of the universe is zero. So having zero energy in the vacuum, actually allows for the matter to be produced because we have zero energy afterwards still... I know this isn't the most deductive explanation, but I think it shall do.

 
Hmmmm, that's interesting.

So you're saying that the negative and the positive energy in the universe basically cancels each other out to make a zero constant gravitational value over the universe? Okay.

According to the Big Bang theory, some 10 to 20 billion years ago, all of the matter and energy of the universe was compressed into a cosmic egg, or plasma ball, consisting of sub-atomic particles and radiation. Nobody knows where the cosmic egg came from, or how it got there -- it was just there. For some equally inexplicable reason, the cosmic egg exploded. As the matter and radiation expanded, so the theory says, it cooled sufficiently for elements to form, as protons and electrons combined to form hydrogen of atomic weight one, and neutrons were subsequently captured to form helium of atomic weight four. Most of the gas that formed consisted of hydrogen. These gases, it is then supposed, expanded radially in all directions throughout the universe until they were so highly dispersed that an extremely low vacuum and temperature existed. No oxygen, nitrogen, phosphorus, carbon, sulfur, copper, iron, nickel, uranium, or other elements existed. The universe consisted essentially of hydrogen gas.

So that's how space got here according to the big bang theory. Then there's planets. You have all these clouds of cosmic gasses out there with all kinds of gravity swirling around. What I don't quite understand is how these gas clouds and elements managed to form planets. Surely you could have a few particles join together with their own individual gravitational pulls right, but seeing as to begin with, all the particles are seperate they would have either stayed all apart or they would have grouped together and formed one giant planet - perhaps. Else they may have formed many smalled balls and then torn each other apart or gradually formed a larger one - maybe. But seeing as we can't bring gasses together like that here on earth under controlled environments, how would it happen in space in such an unpredictable state? Perhaps it's that unpredictability that could allow it to happen, I don't know, but we're dealing with something pretty darn amazing.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
Yea I'm not so sure either Tim. I'm not really too great w/ the Big Bang anyway. It actually doesn't really interest me as much as the creation of the matter, hence I've never really gone in depth into reading a lot about it. I mean I could go down to the science and engineering library and in 4 hours I could come on here and throw some shit down, but do I really want to lol?

 
haha, I know what you mean bro, totally the same over here. Except yeah, can't be bothered going to the library. It's all interesting stuff but yep, just far too deep and way over my head really to go anywhere with it, It's pretty interesting.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
wow. thank you. phatttim, gravtek, and joshbryant have restored my faith that there is intelligent life on this site.

i don't know a whole lot about the big bang theory, but the dopper effect is definately responsible for the red shift. halley figured this out a long time ago. everything is moving away from each other.

********************

'welcome to colorado: 49th in school funding.'

-a bumper sticker
 
God is most definitly real. Who else would let scum like us live on the earth. I can't think of anyone.

~Jameson~

'So you don't wanna fish sandwich?'

-Leon Phelps
 
Lizziebeth: haha, yes, there is intelligent life on this site. And yes, it is believed that the Doppler affect is responsible for the red shift proveing that the universe is rapidly expanding away from itself in all directions. But this would mean that the universe would have to be smooth and possibly flat as well. However it is also believed that the universe could be not flat (don't know what shape, probably round) and 'static' due to the crompton red shift theory.

There is also the idea of CDM (Cold dark matter) which is theorised by Big Bang scientists to be 98-99% of the universes matter and is all invisible and undetectable. If this were proved correct then it would be substantial. That amount of matter could easily prove that the big bang could have produced the required energy to make parts of our known universe. However there have been bands of stars discovered that require more energy just to make them alone (let alone the whole universe) than is possible to have in all the CDM in the universe. Very interesting stuff.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
I have a Big Band Theory- It involves Lawrence Welk being God!

Commander of the Silent Army

Viva La Resistance!

I got so battered last night that I had to send my clients around the corner so I could run behind a tree to be sick. Unfortunately I fell into a snow hole under a pine tree and the impact of falling into an eight foot deep trench made me vomit on myself-love Bawbsy....
 
Now this is a real discussion..(no hard feelings tim, I respect your beliefs, and I can tell you respect ours)But yeah, dark matter is pretty crazy, i've been doing a shitload of research on it lately, and there are some insane theories on it.

The weirdest one is, ok, we know now that there are at least 4 other 'dimensions' than our own. They're discovering more, but it's impossible to understand them unless you're a high level physicist. Basically, they're saying that theres more gravity than there is matter, and that in the big bang there's all this missing shyt where the rest of the universe should be. Now they're thinking that an explosion like that ripped holes in space/time(i actually saw equations for it O_O) and that our universe is experiencing gravity from those alternate dimensions. by alternate dimensions I don't mean you step through the mirror like in sliders or something, I mean it would be incomprehensible to us, and most likely our scientific laws would have no standing there. It's...yeah. Sounds like it's out of a science fiction novel, but some of it's been proven

Mayor of NS Isle

If you don't make it the first time, you need to go bigger
 
Whoa, hold up, I think maybe we misunderstood each other. I don't think that Cold Dark Matter exists at all. I think it's way too crazy a theory to be real, and there's far too much evidence against it to make it very feasible.

I actually disagree with the CDM theory profusely. I've also seen those equations you're talking about and yeah, they're pretty wild, haha. I like what gravteck was saying earlier, about the negative and positive gravity cancelling each other out to make the overall gravity of space nil.

I'll be back after work once I get my thoughts together.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
hey, this is a good arguement, but gimme a few days, i'll have some good evidence that God is real, just wait, it'll be good

keep your head screwed on tight
 
yeah I might join you on that fence gravteck. While I am very set in my beliefs that God does exist and created the universe, I still think he could have done it in any manner of ways, including such things as a big bang and what not so yeah, that fence looks pretty good about now.

~~Phunkin Phatt Phreerider~~

#Cut the Jibba Jabb Crazy Fools! Start Skiing!#

*Be greatful, everyday, for snow, mountains, gravity and skiing*

@Talent Is Important, But Image Is God!@

 
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