Federal Workers Min. Wage raised to $10.10

if your shitty business can't afford to pay someone a living wage, it's not a viable business. You're simply preying on people who need to eat and pay rent. Like how a hospital can gouge you because what's the alternative: death.
 
in my experience, small businesses have always offered more than was offered by large companies. Plus we had things like bonuses and staff events and stuff.

if you can't afford to pay your employees properly, you deserve to sink as a business. People could go buy the same shit at canadian tire for cheaper, but they didn't, because we actually cared about what we were selling, and were therefore more helpful than a kid working for minimum wage at canadian tire.
 
You realize that on average a start up business takes around 3 years to turn a profit, right? So why should the entrepreneur who is risking their financial livelihood be legally forced to take on more risk by having to pay the uneducated, 16 year old stock boy a wage that the federal government sees fit to raise a family on? You see how dumb that is?

And I don't agree with your relation of minimum wage to hospitals because with regards to work, you always have another option. Search the job market, improve your resume', gain new skills that make you more valuable, etc. No one is forcing people to keep their jobs at Walmart.
 
The numbers I posted were an age distribution of *people who make the minimum wage*, not the percentage of all people being paid any wage in that age group who make minimum wage.

2007-Federal-Minimum-Wage-Earners-by-Age-Group.PNG


So, 52.9% of people who make MW are 25 or older, and 3% of all workers 25 and older make MW.
 
I was going to respond to this but you shouldn't of wrote this, you lost a lot of credibility. It takes an astonishing amount of capital to open a business, and yeah you're going to be in the read the first couple years. Weather you're paying your employees eight dollars or $15 an hour. Also small businesses have nothing to do with federal employees.
 
Thanks for posting that, I honestly didn't think it would be that high of a %. That said, a sample size of ages 16 - 24 is much much smaller than that of 25+ so I think that stat is a little misleading.
 
I know it doesn't affect federal employees and mentioned that on the previous page, I think the discussion has moved more towards a national minimum wage.

I'm curious why you think I shouldn't have said that and how it I lost credibility from it?

My point isn't that minimum wage is necessarily a bad thing, just that I find it stupid for a company to be forced to pay part time, hourly employees, with little education (high school kids, teenagers, etc) a wage that the gov sees fit to raise a family on.
 
See I'll agree with you there, but on the other hand there are responsible people who make these wages and just can't live off them. Most of these people with 10 kids and no job ruin it for everyone else, but there are always outliers where a minimum wage job could be their career. There is nothing wrong with that. Somebody has to do it.

If 100% of people took these jobs as stepping stones, or temporary then there'd be nobody to run all these business and positions that nobody else wants to. Being on NS to have this discussion skews it because most people on here are from middle class, or affluent white families or communities where these jobs are indeed just a summer job, or a job to mature oneself and then move on. But in different communities they are look upon differently.
 
No one seriously believes it's possible to raise a family on minimum wage. I'm going to use Saskatchewan as an example because that's where I'm from and minimum wage is $10/hr.

If someone works 40hrs/week that works out to roughly $1600/month before taxes. A brief look at one bedroom apartments in Regina (second biggest city) shows average price is about $1000/month. include all your other expenses (utilities, phone, food, gas/bus fare, whatever you need for your kids if you have them, etc).

There are any number of reasons why people work minimum wage jobs outside of being young, inexperienced or uneducated and they deserve to make enough to live. How are can we expect people to get off income support/welfare if they aren't able to live on the income they actually earn?
 
If an entrepreneur can't create a viable business without her workers paying decent wage, then her business plan is not good enough.

I don't understand the "small business" fetishism in America, but if you really want to make it easy to start a small business you should support extending the social safety net, starting with single payer health care.

sb2-sm-2009-08.jpg
 
How do you feel about the across the board blocking of bills by republicans? Would it not be pertinent to identify cause and effect in this case? I would really like it if people stopped pointing fingers and just got together fo some filing bipartisan efforts for fucks sake. Rs are fucking over D's just to do it, and in turn the Ds are just cutting the Rs out of the process. It is ugly and it needs to stop.
 
Seriously. It even said Federal right in the fucking thread title, they didn't even have to read past that to have gotten it. SMALL BUSINESS DEMISE! RAWR!! Fucking retards. Jesus Christ.
 
Somewhere along the way the thread progressed towards "is raising the minimum wage, in general, a good thing?"
 
Just always assume you were trolled until you can prove otherwise.

I would say it's obvious that Obama's political plan for making this executive order was to change the conversation and get us all talking about the MW. There is also a bill in congress and democrats and democratic proxies everywhere have been throwing the idea out there. A raise in the MW is hugely popular with the American people and historically, raises in the MW have been tied to huge democratic wins. The democrats are pushing this issue into the midterms.

That's why they support it. I just think it's a good idea.
 
But it's pretty widely accepted that increases in minimum wage coincide with an initial raise in unemployment. So how can you expect to get people off of government aide when you're cutting the number of jobs available to these people in the first place?

http://www.epionline.org/release/new-study-10-10-minimum-wage-could-eliminate-as-many-as-one-million-entry-level-jobs/

I'm all for employees not being taken advantage of and being paid a fair wage for their labor. I'm totally OK with subtle raises that match inflation. I just think that with the current economic and unemployment issues facing the US, a raise of almost 30% would cause more harm than good.
 
America has a fetish with small business because it makes up the overwhelmingly vast majority of businesses in this country.

"There were 5.8 million employer firms in the U.S.

Firms with less than 20 workers made up 89.7 percent of these businesses.

Firms with fewer than 500 workers accounted for 99.7 percent of employer firms."

http://www.sbecouncil.org/about-us/facts-and-data/

 
The Congressional Budget Office just released their study on the effect of raising federal workers minimum wage. Not only do they project the net effect to be a reduction in the number of jobs, but also of the total increase in payout to workers, only 19% will go to those below the poverty threshold. So as I have continually stated, the only outcome will be inflation, with a net neutral effect on "poor people" (some lose their job, some make more money).

"In addition to affecting employment and family income, increasing the federal minimum wage would affect the federal budget directly by increasing the wages that the federal government paid to a small number of hourly employees and indirectly by boosting the prices of some goods and services purchased by the government."

Link to CBO study:

http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995

"Once fully implemented in the second half of 2016, the $10.10 option would reduce total employment by about 500,000 workers, or 0.3 percent, CBO projects (see the table below). As with any such estimates, however, the actual losses could be smaller or larger; in CBO’s assessment, there is about a two-thirds chance that the effect would be in the range between a very slight reduction in employment and a reduction in employment of 1.0 million workers."

"The increased earnings for low-wage workers resulting from the higher minimum wage would total $31 billion, by CBO’s estimate. However, those earnings would not go only to low-income families, because many low-wage workers are not members of low-income families. Just 19 percent of the $31 billion would accrue to families with earnings below the poverty threshold, whereas 29 percent would accrue to families earning more than three times the poverty threshold, CBO estimates."

Again, inflation is the main outcome, stealing purchasing power from your parents and your retirement funds, bank accounts, and income. I already know this, and am invested accordingly. I hope you are too.
 
First of all, if your definition of "small business" includes 99.7% of businesses, your definition needs to be updated.

Second of all, these 99.7% of businesses only employ about 50% of the total workforce. Why should they get special treatment? Small businesses are one of the biggest takers of government handouts in America, receiving $30 billion annually in federally backed loans. Small businesses often have the least efficient jobs and are responsible for the most layoffs.

Why should I care about small business?
 
I doubt facts will sway your opinion, but here are some facts:

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Were you complaining about executive orders before the black guy got into office?
 
You never fail to entertain. I'm not sure where you got the idea that I was fat, but I can certainly shoot a hole through your wall decorations.

Besides the fact that the Canadian obesity rate isn't far behind the US rate, I don't see how a nation's obesity rate justifies unilaterally forcing through legislation.

Well done, amigo. Looks like that kale-only diet is doing wonders for your cognitive abilities.

 
That's not my definition of small business, that's the definition of small business. Although, personally, I feel like 50 employees or less would be a more accurate description, 500 seems a little much.

And if 50% of Americans are employed by "small businesses", half the people you know are, and there's a real good chance you will be one day, which IMO, is a pretty good reason to care about them.

Federally backed loans allow more companies to start and get going, more companies equals more competition, more competition benefits the consumer (you and me), so I don't see what the problem is there, but that's a topic for another day.
 
There is definitely evidence that can be used in both of our favors on this subject, but the truth is, to date, the highest minimum wage increase has been 70 cents (to my knowledge). We've never experienced a single increase of $2.85 before so no one can be sure of the effects it will have. Honestly, I hope you're right, I don't want to see any more people unemployed than there are now.
 
Every time I want to feel better about myself I just go read political debates in NSG. Seriously, there's some gems in here.

"Raising the minimum wage for federal employees will hurt small businesses."

"Just because the link for my inaccurate graph made by some random person with a blog doesn't work and there's zero supporting evidence for it doesn't mean it's not true."

"Why not raise the minimum wage to $1000 dollars if raising the minimum wage is so great."
 
Yeah a lot of my posts in this thread have gone unanswered by people. I really wanted him to answer my thousand dollar an hour response.
 
Just like you think $1,000 an hour is overpriced, I feel the same way about $10.10. $10.10 will be hard for employers to sustain also, that is why people will lose their jobs, as stated by the CBO.

I chose $1,000 because even people that agree with minimum wage increases will give the same reasons not to increase it to $1,000 as I will give not to increase it to $10.10.

 
But 10.10 an hour can be sustain, and your wrong about that. Most people don't even make 2,000,000$ in profits so they can't pay people that amount. Do you not see that In between the 8.20 I want more of and the 1,000$ you don't want, we can find a compromise?
 
Yes, I do think we can make a compromise. The only way to arrive at a TRUE compromise is to let the market decide what wages should be. Otherwise we are influencing the number based on our personal beliefs and personal biases. Your belief is that minimum wage should be $10.10, I think it should be $0.00, someone else thinks $9.25, another person wants $17.00, and so on.

But I do believe this is the exact argument they want us to have, arguing over a number, instead of realizing that the actual number doesn't matter, as someone else pointed out, it is a net neutral effect on employment (even though I would argue it creates unemployment, and the CBO agrees, let's leave all that aside) but the undeniable effect is inflation. Inflation is a tax, and this is a tax increase. It is hard to understand, but it is.
 
Well you clearly have no idea what the effects would be if people could pay you pennies an hour for work. Remember when we did do that with children in sweat shops? There's a reason we no longer do it.
 
If you want to talk about the real history of the minimum wage, it was forced through by white labor unions in order to price blacks and women out of the labor market.

If a teenager is willing to work for $5 and hour, and that equals his or her marginal production, who are you to say he or she cannot?

Either way, between Obamacare and this, it's very clear that "job creation" is a definite priority for this sad joke of an administration.

 
Although I don't agree with you, I would like to congratulate you for being the first person to give an intelligent response to voice your opinion. I also agree with you 100% that the administration creating new jobs is a huge joke, and the number one thing that Obama is doing that I don't agree with.
 
I wasn't really serious. Political parties are the worst things ever. Democrats and republicans both suck. I'm about as moderate as possible and it's sad how little the two big parties can do to come together and actually accomplish something.
 
Well here we are 1 week and 4 pages later and people are still talking about general minimum wage.

Thread title anyone? Subject anyone?
 
Everyone pretty much agreed on the first page that since it's only federal contractors that it wouldn't really effect much. The conversation has since evolved to discussing federal minimum wage since that is what President Obama wants to do. Everyone discussing it knows what the thread was originally about.
 
Even the definition of 50 employees or less includes ~97% of businesses. A business with 50 full time employees probably isn't all that "small."

"And if 50% of Americans are employed by "small businesses", half the people you know are, and there's a real good chance you will be one day, which IMO, is a pretty good reason to care about them. "

You're missing the point. Why should I care for my employer if they're not doing a good job at what they do? Why shouldn't I want a more efficient business model to move in and take over the enterprise and then have my share of those efficiency gains?

"Federally backed loans allow more companies to start and get going"

80% of which fail.

"more companies equals more competition, more competition benefits the consumer"

Not when a lot of the new competition is from low efficiency business models that go out of business and destroy Americans' savings. More new businesses are not an inherently good thing. Efficiency gains are.
 
If you're employer is managing their bushiness poorly then, by all means, you shouldn't care, especially if you feel as though they're not compensating you fairly. I totally agree with you. But that goes for all business, big and small. That's a management issue, not a size of business issue. You should work the job market and keep an eye out for a better employment opportunity.

80% failure rate seems really high. I found a few different stats (none that high), with an average around 30 - 35% failure in the first 3 years. Still though, whatever the rate, if business are failing and leaving the government holding the tab, I agree that is a huge problem and should be dealt with. The government should not be backing every single Joe Shmoe that want's to be an entrepreneur, there should certainly be personal responsibility in that.

Those inefficient business you mention are the ones that will be going out of business due to being out performed by their competitors. They go out of business for not providing as good of a product, or not being able to match price points. All of which are good for the consumer.

 
All economic theories aside, just about everyone saying no to a higher minimum wage has yet to make a valid point without sounding like a total asshole.
 
I have yet to see someone argue against the "why shouldn't the mean wage be 1000 dollars an hour?" with logic. Also

1)

Higher minimum wage = higher prices for goods

Higher prices = you cannot afford to buy as many goods

you cannot afford to buy as many goods = your standard of living has decreased

2)

Higher minimum wage = money money for low end workers

More money in the market = inflation

inflation = your money is now worth less

your money is worth less = your standard of living has decreased

3)

higher minimum wage for low end workers + higher price for goods + inflation = no/little net gain.

4)

Higher minimum wage for low end workers != higher wages for middle/upper end workers

No wage increase for the middle/upper end workers + higher price for goods + inflation = the standard of living for those workers decreases

5)

Inflation = money is worth less

money is worth less = any debt one has becomes effectively less

Government has debt + debt is now less = government is not in as much debt.

 
^ yeah I did, No company in the world can pay it's workers over 2,000,000$ a year, the company would go under in a day. However they can pay there employes 20,000+$ a year, and if they can't there there business is doomed to fail anyway.
 
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