Evolution vs. Intelligent Design redux

squeakywaffle

Active member
Post your opinions, eh?

I personally have problems with intelligent design because a) it's a total cop-out and b) it's being used as a front for sneaking some Christian values back into the curriculum of science classes, which is totally not cool.

On the other hand, Darwin's evolution doesn't even apply to the "origin of life" question. It's used to describe the process that brought life from a single cell to a human being, and for that it works perfectly and intuitively. We can see it at work all around us.

However, Darwin never claimed that his theory would apply to the genesis of the first life form to exist, just a cell floating around in a primordial soup. This is where intelligent design claims to have the answer.

Therefore, if you don't believe in evolution, you're a total douchebag. If you do believe in evolution but don't think it accounts for that first cell, you have a good point.

Intelligent Design is still a dumb conclusion to reach, though. It's a scientific dead end. What we need are new theories that don't declare themselves to be the final word, like this one:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/01/0130_030130_originslife.html

We just have to remember that early life was nothing like the complex cells we can see under a microscope today. All those weird little molecular machines working inside our cells had plenty of time over trillions and trillions of generations of cells to spontaneously put themselves together. The first cell to exist might not even have been a cell- it probably existed in a form we haven't even considered yet. Just because we can slap some complex animal cell into a
 
oops...

continued:

modern microscope and see all these weird little things going on doesn't mean that what we see is the only possible form of cellular life and that it could never have been simpler.

We have to broaden the scope of our thinking, not simply think ourselves into a corner.
 
actually, scientists have found that lightning combined with the nitrogen in the air in water creates a thin cellular membrane that eventually becomes life.
 
well its been show that the conditions on primordial earth could have created amino acids, which are the building blocks of proteins
 
**Copied from a post I made 6 or so onths ago, it's an essay I wrote this past year.**

Here's an essay I wrote for my english class as an argumentative research essay.

Wanted to post this since this movement is starting to gain some momentum.

Enjoy. (I haven't included the works cited page, but you can see where I have cited sources within the text)

The Downfall of Intelligent Design

When Charles Darwin started writing about his theory of evolution back in the mid 1800s’ he kept it hidden from the public for fear of an outcry against him by those of the Christian faith. A similar outcry has come in the form of a push from believers in intelligent design to get their theory taught in schools alongside evolution. The movement has recently gained some small victories in rural communities around the country. Unfortunately, the intelligent design movement, while based around a somewhat logical idea with arguable proof, is being presented in an incorrect manner by people with little expertise in the area of science.

To understand what the intelligent design movement is, one must first understand what the theory of intelligent design is. Intelligent design is a theory that argues that things today are far too complicated to have evolved by chance, and therefore there must be an intelligent agent behind their design (Wikipedia). According to Michael Behe, a biochemist who is a proponent of the theory, it has nothing to do with religion. The problem with intelligent design is that “intelligent design is an umbrella term for scientists and philosophers who are beginning to question and separate out the claims of an implicit materialist philosophy that have grown up alongside, indeed almost inside, modern science� (Behe). Therefore, those leading the intelligent design movement don’t completely agree with each other. It’s such a broad idea that many different theories fit into it (Wieland). The main theory is that in the beginning of time, something created us. However, intelligent design theorists can’t agree on much beyond that. Some believe that we were created by an intelligent agent but have evolved completely on our own from that point, while others believe that we have been guided along our ‘evolution’ by an intelligent agent. Still. others believe that we were created as is by an intelligent being and have seen only minor changes since were created (Wikipedia). The lack of agreement within the intelligent design movement makes it hard to take it seriously, as there isn’t even agreement within the community about what it is.

The movement is pushing for intelligent design to be taught as an alternative to evolution in schools. In Dover, Pennsylvania, the school board passed a motion for teachers to inform students of alternatives to evolution, specifically intelligent design (Adler). In Cobb County, Georgia, biology textbooks had a sticker attached to them urging children to consider that evolution is not a fact and that they need to consider other theories (Mathews). For something to be taught in a science class, as intelligent design proponents are pushing for, shouldn’t there be some fact behind it? When you teach something without these facts, you are not teaching science (Cook). Intelligent design is a theory without any scientific backing to it. It is far more a philosophical issue than a scientific issue. So if you are to teach intelligent design in schools as an alternative to evolution, shouldn’t you then teach all other theories which oppose evolution, such as Native American creation myths, or Hindu beliefs? The answer is yes. If you’re going to teach one thing as an alternative, you must teach all the others as well (Cook).

Many people believe that intelligent design is “stealth creationism� (Wikipedia), with creationism being the Judeo-Christian belief in god having created everything (Sessler). People who believe in intelligent design are quick to point out that there is no indication of who the ‘intelligent designer’ is, and refuse to use the word ‘God’. However, the places where it has been taught in schools are all highly religious areas (Wieland). Is it not a fair claim to make that most who are pushing intelligent design are doing so for the purpose of having a divine creator be accepted in science? It’s entirely reasonable; in fact, some scientists think that is exactly what intelligent design is. Jerry Alder, a writer for Newsweek wrote a piece entitled “Doubting Darwin� in which he showed this very clearly, the following is an excerpt from his piece.

For Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, there's no mystery about what I.D. proponents believe: "It's another way of saying God did it. It isn't a model of change; it isn't a theory that makes testable claims." A 2002 resolution by the American Association for the Advancement of Science called I.D. "an interesting philosophical or theological concept," but not one that should be taught in science classes. In fact, the Discovery Institute doesn't call for teaching I.D. in school either, only the "controversy" over Darwinism. But most scientists don't believe there is one. The institute's "Scientific Dissent From Darwinism," whose operative sentence reads "We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life," has been signed by about 350 scientists. (AAAS has 120,000 members.) Scott's organization has circulated a countermanifesto asserting that "there is no serious scientific doubt that evolution occurred or that natural selection is [the] major mechanism..."(Adler)

Scientists who are highly educated don’t doubt evolution (only 0.3% do according to the numbers published by Alder), and these are the men and women who are the most credible and should be the ones who are believed.

Examining Wikipedia.com’s listings for further readings in intelligent design, you notice three names over and over: Michael J. Behe, Phillip E. Johnson, and William A. Dembski. Of the three, only Behe has expertise in biology, let alone science, as he is biochemist (Behe). Johnson is a law professor, and Dembski is a mathematician and a philosopher. While both are doctoral scholars, neither has any credibility or expertise at all when it comes to science (“Johnson, Phillip E.� ARN; “Dembski, William A.� ARN). The trend is similar as you look at other proponents of intelligent design; few have any expertise in the areas needed to be credible when it comes to intelligent design. Would you bring your car to a library to get it fixed? No, of course not, because librarians are not mechanics. That is exactly how it is in this case. Many of the people behind intelligent design are not experts in the fields that they need to be in order to be a credible source. It’s just another weakness in the movement.

The facts (or lack thereof) behind intelligent design are its biggest downfall. Apart from a few biologists, such as Behe, who believe cell structures are far to complex to have evolved by chance, there is only one other way to back up intelligent design with fact. That is to look through fossils and see if you can observe changes, or find the transitional fossils that would be decisive proof for evolution (Sessler). If you cannot, and the fossils simply appear, then intelligent design is possible. For one Chinese paleontologist, his findings support that idea. He believes his findings go against evolution, because the fossils he has found appear so abruptly and show no signs of evolution (Johnson). However, all of the proof can be argued against. From the idea that things show signs of intelligent design because they are too complex come questions about features of the body which show signs of unintelligent design, or possible proof of evolution.

In mammals, for instance, the recurrent laryngeal nerve does not go directly from the cranium to the larynx, the way any competent engineer would have arranged it. Instead, it extends down the neck to the chest, loops around a lung ligament and then runs back up the neck to the larynx. In a giraffe, that means a 20-foot length of nerve where 1 foot would have done. (Holt)

As for the fossil argument, for this single paleontologist’s findings, there exist numerous findings by other paleontologists which support evolution (Quammen). Further support for intelligent design comes from arguments against evolution. One of these such arguments is that evolution violates the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (Sessler). The law states that in a closed system, you cannot create a process that will finish with the same amount of energy as it had before, some is always wasted (Klyce). The argument is that because the 2nd law states that entropy in a closed system can never decrease, therefore things cannot organize themselves, and that is what evolution suggests (in very basic terms without going into the pages needed to thoroughly explain it). The problem with this argument is that the earth is not a closed system, meaning it is not a self contained place where all energy is contained within it; the sun provides energy to us and therefore the earth is not a closed system.

There are many findings that support evolution. Darwin noted instances where domesticated animals’ bodies had developed differently than non-domesticated ones to better suit their surroundings. Domesticated ducks fly less and walk more than wild ducks, and cows which have been milked have, through generations, developed udders which are better suited for milking than those of non-milked cows (Darwin 74). Fossils show that through history, when species disappeared, they were typically replaced by a similar species. Darwin argued that this is evidence of evolution (Quammen). Such strong evidence exists supporting evolution that even the Late Pope John Paul II believed in evolution, although he believed that in the beginning god created everything, as do other modern day scientists who are religious (Alder). It’s very hard to argue something that has so much evidence for it, and many religious people have found a way to believe in evolution while still keeping their religious beliefs.

Believing in evolution does not mean you are going against your religious faith. As stated previously, the former leader of the Catholic Church, Pope John Paul II declared that evolution had been proven true (Holt). It is not a completely black and white issue as many intelligent design proponents and opponents make it out to be.

It’s easy to see where the intelligent design movement fails. While views similar to those of Behe cannot be disproved, the ID movement as a whole doesn’t work. The lack of scientific backing for it provides more then enough reason to doubt it. The lack of agreement between leadership at the head of the movement casts even more doubt over the theory. The lack of credibility that intelligent design ‘experts’ hold cast even more doubt upon the movement. The overwhelming amount of evidence behind evolution provides even more reason to doubt it. Numerous other facts and arguments break the idea down even further. There is nothing but speculation and rough-edged theories to back up intelligent design, and that is why the movement fails.
 
Could someone please paraphrase the essay? I'm not feeling well. That's my excuse and I'm sticking with it.

Anyways I have a couple things to ponder:

1) Obviously evolution is undeniable. But that doesn't disprove all religion or any possibility of intelligent design. Could evolution be the byproduct of intelligent design?

2) Sure the building blocks of life could have spontaneously assembled in a primordial earth, but where did those building blocks come from? How or what created them?

3) How the fuck did time start? Frig, this used to blow my mind as a kid. Like when I was six I'd try to go back to the beginning of time in my mind but then I'd be like, "but if this is the beginning of time, what happened 5 mins ago?" So confusing, it's an endless spiral. AHHHHH.
 
time never began, it will never end, something has always been for all time. Just thinking about it makes me feel weird in the stomach
 
I think your thinking of a clock

anything in the universe follows sequentially, past actions cannot be repeated, so time in essance has always been, he have recognized it, and given it the 60 seconds, 60 minuetes thing that we are familiar with
 
1) Like I said, Darwin's theories of evolution and "Intelligent Design" don't overlap at all. Intelligent design is trying to explain the very first instance of life, while evolution explains how different species arise. Evolution has already been proven true.

Intelligent design can never be proven true except in a case of divine intervention. How convenient...

2) Who knows? That's what we need to find out. We don't know about the first life on earth, and we'll never know anything with complete certainty because we can't go back and see it- it's certainly not going to be preserved.

Some people talk about this experiment where a dude produced amino acids via "lightning" through a "primordial soup" or something, but I don't know if I buy that. If someone has a link to info on that experiment, post it...

It's true that amino acids make up proteins, but there's a lot of other machinery required to assemble them into anything useful.

3) The Big Bang? This is the real question we should be trying to answer... not why life started, but why the universe itself started.

It's a whole different kettle of fish. It gets weird.

Nice essay, melvs... I totally agree with you on the count that intelligent design is being used as a puppet by the fundamentalist Christians.
 
^good points.

The answer to the question on why the universe started cannot be answered, and I think it is fun to boggle the mind with such crazy thoughts. The theory of the Big Band is fairly widely accepted now, it is just the reasons behind it that are unknown.

With increasing power from telescopes, we are now able to get images of galaxies beginning. Dabbling into these images that are from millions or billions of years ago (because they are so far away), is a crazy thought to try to grasp.

It is not just "why" but also "how" the universe started. We know the Big Bang theory, and accepting that still leaves one question: The dense nucleus that started this universe had to come from somewhere....scientists leave the universes history at this point and say "the dense nucleus was created"

So, if it was created, why is it so hard to even give it a slight thought that this creation could have been made by something else...God maybe...it is a possibility that cannot be proven or disproven. I for one like to believe that I am not some fluke of nature and actually have some meaning to life.

Just a question: For those of you who absolutely deny any type of devine God, why do you think you are on the Earth? fluke? to consume the planet of all resources? do you have any purpose to your life?

I am not making any judgements here, I am simple curious to see what other people think. I am always open to ideas, and I assume you are all also.
 
yeah, the big bang might not have been the first big bang, where did those atoms come from, its a weird thought, I mean have these atoms that were in the big bang, did they always exsist, how the hell where they created, and if indeed they are strings of energy (sting theory) what created that energy
 
We don't know anything about why the big bang happened, but physicists are still working on it... string theory, the search for a "theory of everything," etc.

With new data from the next generation of particle accelerators, we might be able to make some significant progress towards this goal. Maybe we'll finally find the Higgs boson, for example. In turn, maybe this will lead us down the path to finally explaining the origin of the universe in more concrete terms.

"Just a question: For those of you who absolutely deny any type of devine God, why do you think you are on the Earth? fluke? to consume the planet of all resources? do you have any purpose to your life?"

I don't know about a "fluke," but the idea of a "cosmic purpose" also seems a little weird to me. If God created us and our universe, then why did he do it? Where did he come from? What cosmic right does he have to declare our "purpose," and what's his purpose?

I don't know why I'm here, but I'm not going to let anyone read me my purpose out of a book. Life is what we make of it- nothing more, nothing less. When we die, we die. I'm inclined to think that's the absolute end. Maybe it isn't, but I guess we'll all find out sooner or later...

I officially dedicate my life to enjoying myself and forming bonds with other human beings. I like being with other people, and I like doing things that I enjoy. If I look back on my life and see that I sat behind a desk dealing with somebody else's shit for 40 years and then sat on my ass doing nothing for another 20, then I've failed. I'd much rather expire at 25 with no regrets than die at 80 having lived a totally miserable life and generally having fucked everything up.

Of course, dying at 100 with no regrets would be even better. :)

Don't take me for a nihilist... I'm not saying that nothing matters. We happen to exist, and that's a big deal. However, that's all we know for sure. We can go from there. If anyone wants to tell me that they have purpose and I don't, then I hope they suffer from extremely painful explosive diarrhea and shit their pants in a public place. (I'm not accusing anyone here of this, by the way...).
 
Im going to chime in here about the amino acids out of basic elements thing. We actually did this my senior year of high school using an elaborate setup to simulate the early earths atmosphere. We took a whole bunch of basic elements and water, boiled it, zapped it with current when it was a gas, and let it condense again to be boiled over and over. We let it sit for a few days to repeat the process a few thousand times and the water turned from clear to brown, and tested positive for some basic amino acids and molecules. So theoretically, that can work.

Also,with certain types of carbon chains, the hyrdophobic properties actually tend to form double walled membranes, like we see in cells. Therefor, its not to far to reason that a double walled membrane could form around some basic amino acids and jumpstart cell processes.

The problem though is that we have actually never 'created' life, we've only done parts of the process. It would take an extremely long time to do these experiments enough to actually start making pieces of RNA and such that could lead to life, and so nobody (to my knowledge) has been able to do that.

Ok, now to the Big Bang thing. The super-nucleus, or near infinite point of mass where everything came from is really weird to think about for us. How can something be just a point, with no surface area at all, and be so incredibly massive and hot? Its boggling.

Just recently however, a new possible theory was announced (http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/astronomy/bigbang_alternative_010413-1.html) that offers an alternative explanation for one of sciences toughest questions. Heres my summary. Instead of one infitie point of creation, it is possible that our universe was created by two 5 dimensional membranes, or 'branes' that collided over time. 5-dimensional objects can be thought of as sheets of paper. They all move together on the same plane, but sometimes bend and touch. When this tough happens, the two planes intersect and the 5th dimension collapeses, making a 4 dimensional space (real space, where there are 3 direction dimensions and 1 for time). Its a really interesting theory and better explains the creation of the universe for me than the big bang or intelligent design.

And as for intelligent design... I guess honestly we will never be able to scientificly explain something that happened before "everything". Intelligent design needs to be categoriezed just like the Big Bang, because theres no way (yet) to prove either, or one over another.
 
So why should they teach evolution over intelligent design? why can't they teach both and let people come to their own conclusions...I think that it's pretty obvious neither one has the proof necessary to make it science. Both models require an obvious amount of faith, because they've never been proven. It really doesnt even matter where I stand on this issue personally, I just think until one has been proven to be truth it's necessary for them to teach any and every possibility. And don't try to tell me evolution is fact..thats bs.
 
The thing is, there is some scientific fact behind the big bang. We know it happened, even if we don't know how. We have radio telescopes that peer to the near edges of the universe, detecting the cosmic radiation that was created from the big bang. It explains why stars and galaxies are moving farther and farther apart at great speeds. Evidence of the big bang is all around us.

Now, show me one bit of factual (not philosophical) evidence that supports Intelligent Design. Can you think of anything? I know I can't.
 
Actually, most of the philosophical evidence is against it, too. Hard to find a phil grad who'll stand behind ID.
 
it just seems to me that I.D. has absolutely no scientific backing and therefore should not be taught in Science classes. That's a pretty simple concept. It's a topic for philosophy classes, but it seems that it is a waste to be sitting there discussing this view point when it is completely irrelivent.
 
"On the other hand, Darwin's evolution doesn't even apply to the "origin of life" question. It's used to describe the process that brought life from a single cell to a human being, and for that it works perfectly and intuitively. We can see it at work all around us."

i have to disagree. if you haven't read michael denton's " evolution, a theory in crisis", you should. he is in no way a christian, or otherwise religious man, but he is a micro biologist and has, through his research come to doubt orthodox darwinism.

i don't want to strees on this, but there are a few things you need to know for the creationist point of view:

firstly, the difference between MACRO evolution, and MICRO evolution. Micro evolution is what we, as you said, observe everywhere today. it is also known as speciation, that through natural selection certain animals with characteristcs helping them survive better in some conditions will survive to pass on their genes. This is widely accepted and observed. However, this is a LOSS of genetic information, not a gain, a reduction of the gene pool. All the animals characteristics arise from information stored in the DNA strand, manifested via alleles and such, like having green eyes, for example.

However, macro evolution, the goo to you via the zoo, has NO observational data whatsoever, NO fossil record, and is impossible from a biological standpoint. It necessesitates new information arising, and necessitates biological changes that are impossible for the creature, and since, this being passed on by a random chance process determines wether it betters the species, it becomes too improbable to happen.

for example, if you decrease the size of an animals kidneys, you need a proportional decrease in its livers size, then heart, bladder etc, and an animal in between at anystage is not viable, therefore natural selection would not select it to survive, by the "law of the jungle".

also, for the argument that life is too complicated for it to be random chance, which i agree with, i think you shoudl look at it liek this: life as we know is too diverse for it to arise from darwins claim (not origins, where we are today froma cell). there shoudl not be as many different animals as there are today f the strongest must survive. the claim of darwin is, in essence, the slow self destruction of life, when looked at liek this: it is the strive for an über animal, über species, that will rule and get rid of the weaker animals, which in the end, it will kill itself off. you hae to add to the theory a need for hunger, a no eating ones own species, etc, etc, until the claims add up to make it just assumption.

why did God create the world? i ahve no idea, but think of it liekthis too: why does an artist create? for te simple joy of creating. thats what i think.
 
If melvs can cut and paste an essay, then dammit, so can I.

Reverend W. Paley's teleological argument, more aptly dubbed the argument from design, is essentially comprised of the premises that nature is complex and purposeful, and could not have been created save by an intelligent creator with a purpose. If we were, as Paley hypothetically puts it, to find a watch in the middle of the forest, would we say that it had come into being on its own? Given that it is a very intricate contraption, and is able (conveniently) to tell time, we would naturally assume that a watch-maker had constructed it. Similarly, Paley argues, a great variety of beings that exist are similarly complicated, and serve a purpose:, as do we: to please god. Just as no one would assume that a watch had been formed through natural processes, Paley argues, we must not make such an assumption about the universe, nor ourselves.

Unfortunately, this argument has a number of flaws. Firstly, any competent engineer understands that one of the most fundamental principles of design is that simplicity is preferable to complexity. The simplest functional method of doing something is always the best way. So, if we can detect in anything supposedly created by God any unnecessary overuse of materials, or anything that is tangled with complexity, we can infer that either the creator does not meet the criteria laid out for Godhood, or there is some alternate method of explaining the universe, other than its creation by an ultimate being.

The other aspect of Paley's argument, that creation has a distinct and discernible purpose, can be disproved soundly. If for some reason something which has supposedly been created by God exists in a form such that it is restricted in its purpose, and our theory of creation can provide no principled reason to support its being so, we must conclude that there is another explanation that does account for the state of this thing. In other words, if, given the argument that all things were created by God, we are left asking 'why are things assembled this way, when it is so obviously deficient', then we are correct to seek an alternative theory that would tell us why.

To add perspective, here is a hypothetical situation to counter Paley's. Suppose that you had a dog who, when asked simple arithmetic questions, would bark the answers correctly. You assume, based on this, that the dog has an understanding of mathematics. However, you note that the dog could (suspiciously) only answer correctly if his trainer knew the answers and was present; curiously enough, were any other individual to ask the sum of two small numbers, the dog would remain mute. The concept of the owner's presence is not connected to the concept of mathematics, and yet the dog's ability to solve problems relies on it. Given this, we must say that the dog has no knowledge of mathematics. It is not simply improbable that the dog knows arithmetic, it is conceptually preposterous given the circumstances. To apply this to the discussion at hand, were we to find an example in creation, (though the universe as a whole may on some level seem well conceived) of poor or wasteful design, we can conclude that creation is not intelligently designed, and there is no way of defining 'intelligent design' so that it would apply to creation.

In the interest of furthering these premises, it would be fitting to present several examples of markedly poor and wasteful design, that, had an omniscient creator made them, would be wantonly stupid in their conception. In many birds, the bones of the legs are hollow to facilitate easier flight, an incredibly efficient design that would seem to support Paley. However, why is the same design present in the Ostrich and the Emu, which are not only flightless birds, but depend on leg strength for their transportation? They too have many hollow bones*. There is incredible waste in all parts of nature; many animals' eggs (fish, for instance) are incredibly multitudinous, but few young survive. Of the thousands of acorns dropped from trees, only a few actually grow. Finally, it is an interesting fact of human anatomy that the eye, due to certain cells being in backwards, create a 'blind spot' present in many mammals. Despite this, the same problem does not exist in the Octopus and the squid, assumedly God's chosen creatures. There are hundreds, if not thousands of other examples of inefficient design, and it is because of this fact that we should doubt Paley's explanation as firm proof of God's existence.

We do not even require that any other theory be present in order to reject Paley; for there must simply be some alternative, whether or not we know what it is. To assume that there is simply one answer or another, the popular theories in this case being evolution and creation, would create a false dilemma. To prove one wrong does not immediately affirm the other. Another answer may exist, and we do not require knowledge of it to dismiss those currently under examination. So, despite the fact that it defeats the purpose of religion and leaves us in the dark asking 'why?', the dismissal of Paley's argument from design is the most logical conclusion to its examination.
 
"However, why is the same design present in the Ostrich and the Emu, which are not only flightless birds, but depend on leg strength for their transportation? They too have many hollow bones*. There is incredible waste in all parts of nature; many animals' eggs (fish, for instance) are incredibly multitudinous, but few young survive. Of the thousands of acorns dropped from trees, only a few actually grow"

how is inefficient for the ostrich and emu? does it hamper their running capabilities? does it make them more susceptible to blow away in the wind? no.

how is it ineffcient for there to be too many of something, if enough grows? it would be inefficient if too many fish eggs were made, and that not enough eggs each time did not survive. But if there are many, many made, and enough survive each time, how is it ineffective? you need to remember that other animals eat these eggs, that water temperatures can vary the survival rate of fish eggs, same as fertility of the ground, competition for space and squirrels (yes, the derangered mutant killer montser squirrels) for acorns. it would be inefficient for there to be nothing predating them or acting on them, and not all of them grew.
 
First, if any of you want to read the Miller/Urey experiment (Amino acid creation), heres a site that dictates it pretty clearly:

http://www.chem.duke.edu/~jds/cruise_chem/Exobiology/miller.html

Also, in relation to the idea presented above, if anyone else is interested, heres another site that goes a little more in depth:

http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0737_Macro_vs._Micro_Evol.html

From what I gathered from it, yes, there is a significant gap in our knowledge of 'transitional' species, eg. fossils of fish with amphibious qualities and sturdy legs (Unlike the Celeocanth).

However, think for a minute. If you were a fish that suddenly had access to this whole new open enviroment with plenty of food and no predators, you really would evolve rather quickly to be more adaptable in this new climate. Therefore, one would drop the useless fins and scales and instead quickly develop a skin that allows passage of moisture to air, feet and arms for bringing nutrients to the mouth and a developed musculature to support your weight in the new low density medium (air).

Evolution normally does go slow, by taking millions of years and generations, but when a species transitions, the absecnce of fossils could very well be because there are so few generations of that trans-species. Evolution between two species when a new optimal enviroment is presented could theoretically take many less generations. Just a thought, by no means can this be 100% correct, im just a college student, not a PHD.
 
It is a) wasteful and b) in the case of the emus that I referenced, it makes their legs weaker and easier to break for no reason whatsoever. But it doesn't have to be counter-productive, it just has to be pointless for no reason to work for what I'm arguing here. I mean, why do whales have hip bones? They don't serve any useful purpose whatsoever.
 
and you know that, how? could it be structural? could it help the animal swim better, could it help keep organs and fluids and blubber in place?
 
I though this was an interesting topic you brought up. It's funny that this would be used to disprove Darwin when we actually have an example of this going on as we speak.

There has been a fairly sharp increase in extinctions in recent history due to the presence of man kind. I think that WE are the uber species you speak of.

We rule over all other animals. We eat pretty well any animal we think tastes good, we kill off any animal we find unattractive, we cage any animal we find attractive, and we kill just for the fun of doing it. We have no natural predators. Sure every once in a while a shark gets someone while they're swimming of a mountain lion mauls someone hiking, but for the most part we dominate over our fellow animals. We have caused many species to go extinct.

And finally you state that eventually the "uber animal" wil kill it's self off. Predictions of massive environmental damages and the complete exhaustion of all natural resources would tend to lead to this conclusion.

So as my conclusion, I think you have proven Darwin's theory.
 
Ths looks fine, but really, it is not what i am talking about.

we shoudl be heading towards where only one single individual, let alone a species, heads its niche and firther on, the world.

for example: why does a lyon not kill off every single animal it sees, because it is obviously the higher animal in its niche? why does it not kill off other lyons that are inferior to it, and so on? you can add that it needs to be hungry, that it doesn't kill its own projeniture, etc, but then you ahve to add so many reasons, or motives, behingd a random process for the betterment of the DNA gene pool, that it makes no sense in the end to accept it.

as for us humans, do you kill each and every other human you see that you consider to be inferior? why is there not an über man? you need to follow largely frwoned upon doctrines to find people who have brought darwins ideas to us humans, which is to say the Nazis as a prime example. if you do not condone the mass extermination of persons for the betterment of the gene pool, which they obviously weren't fit enough to survive in, hence their death, then you are a rebel against Darwin.

unless you want onlöy "natural" happenstance to affect natural selection. which includes predation, and competetion. so its not far from it at all.

also, why then are there anumal rights activists? why do you not presonally kill every singlke animal you see that is inferior to you? that is the logical conclusion.

that we affect our environment, sure. but this has nothing to do with there being such diversity in the same niches across the world, surely the animals that are better hunters than us would have had the upper hand along the way?

the simple fact that we go against what would be deemed natural by the theory is proof against it, i think.
 
I don't really agree with your thinking here. I'm not saying that God doesn't exist or anything. I'm just saying that Darwin's theory is pretty solid.

The problem I'm having with what you just said was: "why would you not just kill everything inferior to you?" I just don't think Darwin intended his theory to be taken in this way. Just because you are fitter, doesn't mean that you must kill everything less fit. It just means that you have a better chance of survival than those less fit. And just because you are stronger physically than another species, doesn't mean you are more fit. Squirrels are very fit for their niche. They are the only ones who can break the tough shells of acorns, so they have an abundant food supply. They can climb to the top of a pinetree in a matter of seconds to escape predators etc. Yet, if one attacked me, I could totally stangle it to death and break all it's bones. So, suirrels don't attack humans cuz humans are stronger, but humans don't kill squirrels bacause they are too hard to catch.

As humans, we have the capacity to predict the affect of our actions. So we would realize that if we kill everything right now, we will have nothing to eat later.

For the most part animals do the minimum necessary to survive. Since there is no need to kill every one else, they don't. That would certainly be inefficient (to come back to JD May's essay.)

I do, however, toatally agree with you about the eggs and acorns and how they do serve a purpose.

(I realize that this is quite scattered but I hope you can get my point.)
 
i get your point, and i realise i exagerrated.

but my point is this: in the quest for bettering ones genes, why do birds not kill every other bird that is not them and their mate, to pass their genes on? why do lyons that take over a pride kill only the young ones fo another father, but not the lionesses that are not of their own genes and not as fit as them? well, they need the lionesses for food, for sex, and for protection. yet they are inferior to them in strength, and likely in genes.

why do we not have a reaction to get rid of people who are born blind or handicapped? we would want to better our specied by not allowing their inferior genes to soil the gene pool, wouldn't we? but if you don't agree, you are not acting out of instinct, but using morals, which no one has explined reasonably where morality evolved from basic instincts.

my point is that there is too much diversity and variation in this world for a random process to yield it, and the fact that animals are not competing agsint one another directly at every trun to better the species in genes is not compatible with the "law of the jungle", unless you change it to another form which is not what it implies.
 
Rekker*

"However, think for a minute. If you were a fish that suddenly had access to this whole new open enviroment with plenty of food and no predators, you really would evolve rather quickly to be more adaptable in this new climate. Therefore, one would drop the useless fins and scales and instead quickly develop a skin that allows passage of moisture to air, feet and arms for bringing nutrients to the mouth and a developed musculature to support your weight in the new low density medium (air). "

Fair enough thought. However, how does a fish grow arms, legs, and lungs. A fish can only breath in water with gills. If all the fish decided to use the wide open space of land presented to them, they would flop onto the shore and die. There has to be something more to that if a fish is going to grow some legs.

What about the idea of Ireducable Complexity. This means that some things in our world cannot be created through a serious of tiny steps over great time, it is not possible. For example, the eyeball: This cannot be created in a serious of steps. If a single part of the eye evolved first, the iris for example, there is absolutely no function for a lone iris, it does nothing without the rest of the eye. Also, some may say that cells can have light sensoring functions. This is true, but there would be no evolutionary advantage to go from an efficient light sensing cell to a complex eyeball.

Example 2: Blood clotting mechanism. This is a mechanism that like the eyeball, cannot develop in steps. It is a mechanism that is all or nothing, and split up into steps there is no purpose.

I am not saying one way is right or wrong, just putting some food for thought.

Also, someone said something about learning from a book. Well, you are obvisouly not a religious person yourself, so this may be hard to grasp, but learning does not come from just a book. A book, the bible I am sure you are referring to, contains information, but it is not a script to the past. It is full of stories, and biographies, like any book you can read these days. The bible is important to some people less to others.

Also, I am sure some of you think that the bible may disagree with an form of evolution and science. I would disagree, and say that the more you look at it, the more it compliments science perfectly.

if you are happy to live on earth as you do, good for you, I am glad. The last thing we need is a bunch of slobs who don't feel like life is worth anything. i am not here judge anyone. We all have our choices to make, and I respect them all.
 
Yeah man, there's so much variation in the world. It kindof depends on 1) if you believe the world has been around for 4.5 billion years and 2) whether it is even possible for this variation to errupt in that time through simple gene mutation.

And you know, it's weird that everyone hasn't evolved to look exactly the same. It's also a good thing because an entire species would be wiped out by a single virus if this happened.

The other interesting this is about the handicapped people. Now, more than ever we care for people who have "defects" in their genetics. This could potentially lead to the human race being genetically very weak in the future, given that survival of the fittest is being controlled.
 
Then you're overlooking the fact that there are fish with half-developed eyes. So much for his example...

By the way, whale hip bones do none of those things. They're entirely superfluous. "How do you know that"... hahaha, a religious skeptic. It's a biological fact. Want a list of a whole lot more? I have about 100 more of these. There are probably thousands in total. Would you like to go through each and explain why they're all useful for some purpose? So far you're making some pretty weak justifications. Try some more:

"Useless eyes: cave critters

There are hundreds of species of animal which, living in total darkness in deep caves, have no need for eyes. They range from fish (eg the Mexican blind cave tetra Astyanax fasciatus mexicanus) to insects (eg the Hawaiian cave planthopper Oliarus polyphemus), spiders (eg the Tooth Cave Spider Neoleptoneta myopica), salamanders (eg Typhlomolge rathbuni) and crayfish (eg the Dougherty Plain cave crayfish Cambarus cryptodytes).

Yet, these creatures do in fact have eyes. The eyes are often tiny, lacking crucial parts, and so on, and so they would not function even if there were light to see. But they are clearly eyes, set in skull apertures, on stalks etc as normal, nevertheless.

Eyes that don't work in creatures that don't even need eyes? Surely not?!

Useless eyes: burrowers

The non-functioning eyes of burrowing animals, such as marsupial moles (order Notoryctemorphia: no lens or pupil, reduced optic nerve), golden moles, amphisbaeneans and naked mole rats (Heterocephalus glaber).

Useless eyes: river dolphins

Not all river dolphins are blind; in fact, Amazon dolphins (Inia geoffrensis) have quite good eyesight. However, most others have reduced vision. Most of their habitats are murky waters, where eyes are of little use. And the designer's gift of good sonar is perfectly adequate instead. Why, then, do Ganges and Indus dolphins (Platanista gangetica and P minor) have eyes at all? For their eyes lack a lens, leaving these species unable to resolve images: the most they can do is perceive the presence or absense of light (of which there's rather little where they live anyway)... for which skull apertures, eyeballs, muscles, retinas and the rest, the same design as normally-sighted dolphins have, seems a bit excessive.

Nautilus eyes

Whilst on eyes... is it not strange that the creator, having given the nautilus (Nautilus pompilius) an otherwise very good pinhole camera eye, chose not to give that eye a lens?

Tarsier eyes

Most nocturnal vertebrates, from owls to cats, have a membrane behind their (backward) retina, the tapetum lucidum. This reflects back any stray photons, giving the retinal pigments a second chance to pick them up. Seems like a good idea, yes?

It is strange, therefore, that the creator saw fit to omit this apparently very useful piece of design from nocturnal tarsiers (and other nocturnal primates, such as bushbabies, owl monkeys etc). These cute little prosimians clearly need to see well at night. At least, we can assume so, because they have eyes so huge that each is larger than their entire brain! These vast eyes can barely be swivelled in their sockets, so the tarsier design requires the addition of an extremely rotatable neck.

If they were designed to see in the dark, think how much better they could do so with a tapetum lucidum behind each retina too! Alternatively, if they had one, perhaps they would not need such huge eyes. A waste of materials, perhaps? Or might this be design constrained by history?

(The designer also forgot to include a tapetum lucidum in the eyes of owlet nightjars (Aegothelidae), and of the Galapagos swallow-tailed gull, all of which would presumably benefit from having it. And he obviously was not bothered about the low-light visual abilities of humans either, for we too lack a tapetum.)

Mammalian vision processing

Also strange is the fact that the part of the mammalian brain that does the image processing is at the back of the head, so the nerve signals have to travel further from the eyes than they might otherwise need to.

The vertebrate retina

The retina is the 'screen' at the inside back of each eyeball, onto which is projected the incoming light. It is made up of lots of photoreceptor cells with their associated out-going nerves, and the blood supply to them. The problem is, the photoreceptors are in backwards, pointing away from the incoming light: the 'cable' from each cell is therefore in the way, and trails across the eyeball's inside surface to exit the retina at the correctly-named 'blind spot'.

Now, the brain compensates for this, so we don't usually notice it. But a design that needs compensatory mechanism for some aspect of it, is not a good design.

But to make matters worse, this design actually causes unnecessary problems.

The photoreceptors have delicate, hairlike nerve endings, which means they cannot be cemented firmly into place. Instead, they are loosely joined to a layer of cells called the retinal pigment epithelium. This absorbs stray photons that would otherwise blur the image, and contains the retina's blood supply. But the connection between the retina and the epithelium is so fragile that the retina can detach, either due to a blow to the head, or often, spontaneously. Starved of their blood supply, the retinal cells die, causing blindness.

Strangely, the creator was able to put retinas the 'right' way round... in those pinnacles of His purpose, the octupus and squid. Not only do their eyes, which are basically the same design as vertebrate ones, have their photoreceptors pointing towards the light, and so lack a blind spot; with the nerves training behind them and embedded in their blood supply, the cephalopod eye is far less prone to detached retinas.

Locust wing nerve 'wiring'

In the African locust (Locusta migratoria), the nerve cells that connect to the wings originate in the abdomen, even though the wings are on the thorax. Nerve signals from the brain have to travel down the ventral nerve cord past their target, then backtrack through the insect to where they are needed.

The recurrent laryngeal nerve

The nerve 'wiring' of the mammalian larynx is also bizarre. Nerve signals for bodily operations travel from the brain down the spine, then branch off. Fair enough. The larynx is in the neck, so one might expect that the relevant nerve would come off the spine at the neck. And, it does: the recurrent laryngeal nerve originates from the spinal cord in the neck, as a branch of the vagus nerve. But then, bizarrely, rather than taking a direct route across the neck, it instead passes down the neck and into the chest, loops under the posterior side of the aorta by the heart, then travels right back up again to the larynx. Which is a waste of materials by anyone's standard, but in the case of the giraffe, it implies a Creator so set on the mammalian Bauplan that an extra 10 to 15 feet of nerve is needed.

More on the recurrent laryngeal nerve here.

The human larynx-pharynx junction

Talking of larynxes, there's the opening of the human larynx (leading to the trachea) being from the pharynx, so that swallowing impedes breathing (and vice versa). Not only that, but with the wind-pipe coming from off the food-pipe, there is a constant risk of choking. Before the Heimlich manoeuvre was invented, choking was one of the leading causes of accidental death; even so, thousands still die worldwide each year from inhaling their food. Children are more vulnerable because their airways are narrower. Great design.

Human ear-moving muscles

The cartilage-y bits which funnel sounds into the sides of our heads, which we usually call 'ears', are known more formally as pinnae or auriculae. (It's actually only the most external part of the external ear, which is everything up to the tympanum (eardrum). And the human pinna (or auricula) has three muscles attached to it: the Auriculares anterior, superior, and posteriore. They naturally have a blood supply, and their own nerve wiring (by a facial nerve -- the temporal and posterior auricular branches of cranial nerve VII).

Yet, as Gray's Anatomy puts it, "In man, these muscles possess very little action: the Auricularis anterior draws the auricula forward and upward; the Auricularis superior slightly raises it; and the Auricularis posterior draws it backward". They move our ears.

In other mammals however, these muscles possess a very useful action, rotating the funnel that is the pinna to point towards sounds. Human ears, being more or less flat and fixed to the sides of our heads, cannot rotate towards sounds... which doesn't stop these muscles giving it a feeble go.

The ability of some people to wiggle their ears is, sadly, one of God's lesser-appreciated gifts to us.

Aquatic embryos

Terrestrial salamanders, which live their whole lives on the land after hatching, have to return to water to lay their eggs.

Sea turtle eggs

Conversely, aquatic creatures such as sea turtles, which spend their whole lives at sea, have to struggle out onto land in order to lay their eggs.

Gill-less cetaceans

Cetaceans -- dolphins and whales -- have to breathe air, and despite being designed to live underwater, have to return to the surface regularly to catch their breath. They do not drown, since they do not inhale underwater, but they can suffocate if they don't get to the surface in time.

This is especially a problem for newborn calves, which are born underwater. Taking the first breath is triggered by the touch of air on the skin, and post mortems of dead calves sometimes show that it never got to the surface to take that first breath.

So, why no gills? It's not like the designer couldn't include both gills and lungs if it saw fit, since salamanders and lungfish have both -- though it is unclear why cetaceans should have to breathe air at all.

What's more, cetaceans can suffer from the 'bends' -- decompression sickness -- if they surface too quickly, just like any other mammal. This is where nitrogen in the lungs -- lungs, yeah? -- is squeezed by the depth pressure out into the bloodstream as bubbles. When the mammal surfaces from depth, a lot of time needs to be taken so that the bubbles can be safely, gradually, returned to the lungs. So, whales don't usually surface very quickly. But if they do, they can die just as unpleasantly as any other mammal in that condition. And odd thing for a creature designed by a high intelligence to be able to suffer from, no? [Notes / references]

Haemoglobin

Haemoglobin, the molecule which transports oxygen around our bodies in red blood cells, has more affinity for carbon monoxide than for oxygen. It is better at carrying this poisonous gas than at the job it was so intricately designed to do.

Mammalian foetal blood circulation

There's two problems here. Firstly, in the mammalian foetus, the lungs are not yet functional, and the oxygen and carbon dioxide exchange takes place in the placenta. Here, oxygenated blood coming into the foetus mixes with deoxygenated blood that has already circulated. This is very inefficient, as it means much of the foetal body receives only partially oxygenated blood. In adults, the deoxygenated blood goes directly to the lungs for oxygenation before circulation to the rest of the body; the mixing does not happen because of the closed connection between the heart and the lungs.

Secondly, to make this rather circuitous circulation possible, there is a hole between the chambers in the foetal heart (the foramen ovale), and foetal blood vessels (eg the ductus arteriosus). These need to close off at birth for the transition to adult circulation. Sometimes they don't, leading to two relatively common, and sometimes fatal, birth defects -- so-called 'hole-in-the-heart' babies.

Could the designer have done it better? Sure! If the umbilical cord were inserted at the chest, rather than the belly, it would solve several of these problems, because the umbilical vein and umbilical artery could connect to the pulmonary vein and pulmonary artery. If this doesn't take a genius to work out, where does that leave the designer?

Many thanks to Mr Darwin at IIDB for this item.

Snake lungs

The lungs of snakes such as blindsnakes and colubroids. They have two lungs in their elongated bodies: a 'normal' sized right lung, and a tiny left one. Why waste material with the small one? More surface area for respiration would be available if the space the little lung's non-gaseous-exchange tubing takes up were given over, instead, to a larger-volumed single lung. After all, that is what is found in other snakes.

Amphisbaenean lungs

Amphisbaeneans -- 'worm-lizards' -- have the same oddity as the colubroid snakes above... but in them, it is the right lung that is reduced. The designer clearly couldn't decide which poor design to stick with!

Cephalopod gills

The flow of blood and water through the gills of cephalopod molluscs (octopus and squid) is not a counterflow arrangement, and so the gills are far less efficient than they could be. Sure, they're good, but they're good despite this disadvantage. Counterflow systems, where two fluids move in opposite directions, maintaining as high a concentration gradient as possible the whole time, are so useful that they are found in a wide range of situations: lungs, fish gills, kidneys, cold-adapted animals' circulation (eg penguin feet), and so on. Yet the designer decided against using this basic arrangement... only in cephalopods...?

Snake pelvises

Many species of more 'primitive' snakes (that is, creatues without legs, yeah?), such as pythons, have bits of pelvis, hindlimbs and hindlimb claws buried inside their bodies. These are, of course, of immense use to legless creatures.

Whale pelvises

Whales have, buried deep in their bodies, remnants of pelvis and hind limb bones. Even if (as is sometimes claimed) they do have a function, why are the bones in question bits of pelvis and limb?

The panda's thumb

Why is the giant panda's 'thumb' made of an altered wristbone (the radial sesamoid), rather than the normal digit? If the human hand were the ideal design, we should expect a normal thumb, not some different way of doing the same thing. And if six 'fingers' are better than five for grasping, why do only pandas have this feature?

Male mammal nipples

Male mammals have nipples. They do so because, in the embryo, the tissues involved start to develop before the two sorts of bodies (male and female) diverge. But given that most other sex differences are confined, naturally, to the separate sexes, it is a remarkably odd bit of design. Males, after all, do not and cannot feed their infants with these nipples. Why are they then not pointless and a waste of materials?

Almost as interesting is the fact that male nipples are fully capable of feeding an infant. If a man is given the right hormones, and he will grow breasts that will lactate. So males potentially could feed infants. Surely that would be an obviously beneficial trick? But no. The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away, it seems.

Waste of life

There is a phenomenal waste of life in nature, everywhere you look:

Oak trees produce thousands of acorns, yet hardly any stand a chance of becoming trees.

Many fish species produce thousands of eggs, in the hope that a few will survive. Herring (Clupea harengus) for example produce around 35,000 eggs per batch, while cod (Gadus morhua) produce about four million.

Male animals produce millions and millions of sperm, yet almost none stand a chance of fertilising an egg. A human male produces around 350 million sperm at each ejaculation. The garden snail Helix aspersa, for instance, is hermaphroditic; sex is generally repeated with aound six partners during a mating season. Sperm from each partner have to fight their way up the reproductive system past a cavity called the bursa copulatrix. Only the fittest will arrive at their destination, a special vessel where they may be stored for as long as four years while they are gradually used to fertilise the snail's eggs. As many as 99.98% of them will die and be digested before they reach their goal, the storage organ.

Hundreds of millions of tons of pollen are cast into the air every year, with only the tiniest of fractions reaching its desired destination. (Mind you, compare Genesis 38:9-10: wasting one's gametes was a serious enough sin for Onan to be killed in punishment. Yet the Good Lord is supposed to have created things which by their very nature spill so much seed on the ground?).

Approximately a third of human pregnancies fail or spontaneously miscarry in the first trimester.

Male elephant seals battle so furiously for females that great numbers of them die of bloody wounds.

When a male lion takes over a pride, it will usually kill the cubs of the previous top male.

The boom and (catastrophic for the individuals) bust of lemming populations.

... and so on.

Functionless flowers

Flowers on plants such as dandelions, which are apomictic (asexual) and thus do not need to attract pollinating insects. Many apomictic species also continue to produce pollen, which may trigger reproduction, but its genetic contribution is not used and is thus wasted.

Functionless flower parts

The non-functional stamens (male parts) in some female flowers, and the non-functional pistils (female parts) in some male flowers. Most flowers have both sexes of reproductive organs (stamens and pistils). Some however have only one or the other, making the flower male or female. So having both where only one set works is a waste of materials.

Snail sex

Sex for molluscs such as the garden snail mentioned above is no easy affair. After finding a mate, courting may take up to six hours, and involves circling, tentacle touching, and lip and genital biting. Finally they get together and, being hermaphrodites, insert their penises into one another. As they live in shells, their genitals are located in their heads. They then fire 1cm long calcium carbonate darts into each other.

Back when I was at school, I was told that these served to hold them together, but the truth is much stranger. The darts' job is not to fix the snails together, but to fix the sperm contest in favour of the dart-thrower, by ensuring more of its sperm make it to the storage chamber.

The darts are fired as sex begins. As they plunge into the partner's body like hypodermic needles, they transfer a chemical called allohormone. This makes the female part of the reproductive system contract, sealing off the entrance to the bursa copulatrix, and diverting the sperm straight to the storage organ. A snail that has been speared will store twice as much of its partner's sperm as a snail that has not.

A design elegant in its simplicity? Nah...

(As reported in New Scientist, 2 November 2002.)

Spider penises

They don't have them. Now, internal fertilisation of egg by sperm seems to be a Good Idea: it is an effective way to ensure that the gametes meet. This can be accomplished by the female squatting over a sperm packet; that is how some mites do it. But more obviously and, one might think, sensibly, males often have a penis -- a structure to deliver the sperm.

A male spider delivers his sperm with his pedipalps. These appendages are located on his head (and are considered by evolutionists to be modified mouthparts). But inconveniently for the spider, the pedipalps are not connected to the part of the body where the sperm is made (spider gonads are, unsurprisingly, located in the abdomen).

So before copulating, the male deposits his sperm onto a small web he has spun especially for this purpose. He then siphons the sperm up into the pedipalps, like "drawing ink into a fountain pen" as Olivia Judson has described it. Only once his pedipalps are thus primed can he inseminate his mate.

Surely having the gonads connected to the pedipalps... or a penis-type arrangement located, well, anywhere the designer felt like, really... would be a simpler and more economical design...?

See eg: W S Bristowe (1958), The World of Spiders, p65-67.

Spotted hyaena reproduction

There are certain... oddities... about the reproductive system of the spotted hyaena (Crocuta crocuta). But I can do no better here than quote from this site (my emphases):

Female spotted hyenas bear, suckle, and care for their young like any female mammal. But although their genitals are clearly female in function, they are male in form. The labia are fused into what looks like a scrotum, complete with two pads of fatty tissue that resemble testes. In addition, the clitoris is elongated to the point that it is nearly the size of a male's penis and is likewise fully erectile.

Astonishingly, females mate and give birth through the long, narrow canal running down the center of this "pseudopenis." During mating it retracts much like a shirt sleeve being pushed up, and during birth it stretches so much that it looks like a water balloon. "From a human perspective, the process can be thought of as giving birth through an unusually large penis," says Frank.

[...]

Whatever the cause, female masculinization is apparently a very successful strategy for the spotted hyena, which is the most abundant large predator in its range. But this success comes at a cost that is tremendously high for the spotted hyena--and presumably prohibitively high for other species. Notably, giving birth is difficult and dangerous, especially for first-time mothers. The fact that the pseudopenis has such a long, narrow birth canal is enough to make it a poor organ for delivering a baby. But there is the added complication that the end of the pseudopenis cannot stretch enough to accommodate passage of the baby: In a first-time mother, the baby tears its way out. "It's the only time I've ever heard hyenas cry out in pain," notes Frank.

Even worse, the umbilical cords are so short that many first-born babies die. At only six-inches long, the umbilical cord is far too short to traverse the foot-long canal down the pseudopenis, which means that either the placenta detaches or the cord breaks before the baby is born. (For comparison, in women the birth canal is only a few inches long and the umbilical cord is a generous foot and a half long.) The longer a hyena's labor, the more likely her baby is to suffocate and be stillborn--and the more likely the mother is to die. In captivity, first-time mothers labor as long as 48 hours and nearly three-quarters of first-born cubs die. Without veterinary help, many of these mothers probably would have died along with their babies; in the wild, many females die at three to four years, the age when hyenas typically first give birth.

'Nuff said, I think.

Manatee toenails

Manatee flippers have toenails. Why?!

Marsupial infants

Newborn marsupials infants are born from the usual opening, and have to wriggle arduously through their mother's fur to reach the pouch and nourishment. Why are they not born either more fully developed (like placental mammals), or even straight into the pouch?

What is even more strange is that the designer -- working with a fresh slate for each 'kind' of organism -- should choose to use this clearly suboptimal design over and over again, in such diverse creatures as kangaroos, koalas, wombats, numbats, marsupial moles and thylacines. And quolls...

Eastern quolls

Quolls are Australian marsupial carnivores. They are overall rather cat-like, but with mouse-shaped faces. They are, in two words, dead cute. As with other marsupials (see above), baby quolls are tiny pink jellybeans, which have to wriggle through the fur from vaginal opening to pouch. Once there, they attach themselves to a nipple and stay there until ready to leave 'home'. Unlike placental mammals, therefore, nipple use does not rotate among the young.

A female quoll has six teats. Which makes it rather odd that Eastern quolls (Dasyurus viverrinus) give birth to up to 30 young. So the 24 weakest / slowest to the nipples are guaranteed to starve to death.

Having at least three-quarters of your offspring inevitably die, because they can't get at the food you provide them... is good design?

More on the quoll here.

Apoptosis

Apoptosis is a process in the development of an embryo which involves programmed cell death. Cells are formed... only to be destroyed. Now, it's possible that this might be a sensible way to go about making some parts. But for instance, vertebrate distal limbs -- that's your legs and forearms -- have two bones in them, the tibia and fibula, the radius and ulna. That's how they need to end up, how they're designed to be. So why do these two bones start out as a single bone, that then divides into two by the cells dying off? If two bones are required, why not make two bones? That happens elsewhere in the body. Why kill off cells that resources have gone into making? What a waste of materials!

Toothless creatures' foetal teeth

The foetal teeth of anteaters and baleen whales, which are made, only to be reabsorbed.

Dolphin embryonic hind limb buds



As they develop, dolphins (and -- an evolutionary prediction -- other cetaceans, I'll bet) start to grow hind limbs, which of course they do not have and do not need once they're born. These are later reabsorbed. So for what intelligent design reason do they have them?

See eg: Sedmera, Misek and Klima (1997): 'On the development of Cetacean extremities: Hind limb rudimentation in the Spotted dolphin (Stenella attenuata)', European Journal of Morphology 35(1): 25-30. Abstract.

Human embryonic tails

Between four to seven weeks of development, we humans have a tail. It is later reabsorbed. Not only that, but we share with mice (in whose genome they've been found) the same tail-making genes. It appears that there is a separate mechanism controlling the tail's apoptosis (qv), so that the occasional human born with a tail isn't like that because of the reactivation of old genes, but rather because the genes to remove it have malfunctioned. Erm, special genes to remove something we're not supposed to have?

The human coccyx

If a single bone is required, why does the coccyx start as separate ones that just happen to look like little vertebrae, which then fuse into a single lump? Why is there a muscle -- the extensor coccygis -- which would flex these bones, if only they weren't fused -- isn't that rather pointless? And why is the coccyx's development controlled by the same genes that make tails in other mammals?

When a coccyx is longer and its bones not fused, we call that sort of coccyx a 'tail'. Or conversely, a really shortened tail with the remaining bones fused would look different from a coccyx how?

Guinea pig tails

The tails of guinea pigs, which are present but which are so short (reduced?) they do not extend outside the body.

Peacock tails

The tails of peacocks are so long that the birds (which are a favourite food of tigers) can barely fly. Surely there are less dangerous ways to attract females?

Dietary requirement for vitamin C

Apes and humans require vitamin C in their diets... which is rather odd, because most mammals synthesise their own. Yet although we humans cannot; we do have the same gene for this that they do... but it is broken! And it is rendered non-functional by precisely the same mutation in all the great apes. Coincidence? And how loving of the creator to give people without adequate diets scurvy!

Grass as a food

All those animals that are 'designed' to eat grass. Yet grass is a terrible food. Why does it contain so much silica, if not to protect itself against... the animals that were designed to eat it...? And it is deficient in minerals, so much so that animals have to migrate for hundreds of miles to get to 'salt licks', and elephants have excavated whole caves in their efforts to get minerals from the rock.

Cellulose digestion

What's more, ungulates can only get the little nutrition they do from grass because of the millions of bacteria and protozoa in their guts that break down the cellulose that makes up the plant cell walls. Enzymes are readily apparent in animals to break down other foodstuffs. Surely the designer could have given plant-eaters an enzyme or two for this for themselves -- after all, 'mere' bacteria can do it!

The Chinese grass carp

In a similar vein, the Chinese grass carp, Ctenopharyngodon idella, grazes on aquatic plants and, during floods, on land vegetation. It has specialised pharyngeal teeth that enable it to break up leaves, and so access the cell contents. So the creator clearly intended it to be able to eat these plants. Yet like most vertebrates, the cellulose itself, and the many unopened cells, pass undigested through the gut. If only it had the appropriate gut bacteria... (Did the intelligent designer just forget the grass carp when he was giving out the bacteria? Well I suppose there are a lot of species, so he can't be expected to remember everything.)

Aphid symbiotic bacteria

Why do aphids need bacteria living inside of them to produce dietary supplements, when a reasonable designer would have given aphids all the biosynthesis capabilities needed to live off of plant sap?

See eg Shigenobu et al, Nature 407, 81-86 (2000). Abstract.

Convoluta flatworm mouths

Flatworms of the species Convoluta roscoffensis are green because their translucent tissues are packed with Platymonas algae. The algae live, grow and die inside the bodies of the worms. Their photosynthetic products are used as food by the worms, and the algae recycle the worms' uric acid waste as food for themselves. The worms' mouths are superfluous and do not function after the larvae hatch: worm plus algae plus sunlight is a self-contained unit. For what divine design purpose do the flatworms have mouths, as other flatworms have?

Animal chlorophyll

And just how useful would it be in times of hardship if any animal could make its own food? Some chlorophyll (or strategically placed algae!) would do it. But only plants have it.

Mayfly mouths

Many groups of insect divide their lifecycles up into a feeding stage -- a caterpillar, for example -- and then an adult stage, whose main job is to find a mate. In many species, though, such as mayflies, that is just about all they do -- they do not even feed (and hence have a short adult life). And yet these adults have mouthparts -- often reduced -- that serve no purpose.

Mammalian lung ventilation

The mammalian tidal respiratory system. Because of the way it works, mixing fresh air with 'used-up' air, it is not very efficient. Is there a better system available? Sure! Birds have a through-flow system, whereby the incoming air is not mixed with the deoxygenated air. This is not just a bit more efficient, it is in the order of ten times more efficient.

So the Intelligent Designer gave bats (eg pipistrelles) a hugely inferior lung ventilation system to that of birds (eg nightjars)! And used the bird one in kiwis, and the bat one in humans, whales and cheetahs. Go figure.

Echidna spurs

The monotreme echidna ('spiny anteater') males have non-functional and reduced poison spurs on their hind legs. Reduced relative to what? Why, the working version found on the hind legs of males of another creature. And that is... the hedgehog? Porcupine? Nope, the only other egg-laying mammal, the platypus.

Pouchless penguins

The echidnas above lay eggs... and put them straight into their pouches. One might think that if a pouch is a Good Idea™ for an egg-laying thing, that it would save birds having to fanny around with nests. Ah, you might say, but birds have to fly, and having a nestfull of eggs or chicks in a pouch would make flight difficult. Sure... but not for flightless birds!

This is especially relevant for penguins. Penguins, like every other bird, need to keep their eggs warm. Living in the silly places they do, however, means they can't have a nest (made of what -- shaved ice?). Instead, the poor little buggers have to sit the egg on their feet and cover it with a flap of groin skin. When they do this, they can hardly move, and they have to swap it over to other penguins if they want to go and grab a bite to eat, which often involves rolling it along the ice. This is a dangerous way of keeping an egg warm. Imagine how much easier it would be for them to have that flap of skin surrounded with contractile muscles, like a marsupial pouch between its legs. If it was really good at sealing (with glands producing water-resistant mucous?), then the bird could even take the egg with it when it goes swimming for food.

There is no questioning that a better developed pouch would be useful to penguins, given that they try as hard as they can to have one anyway. And, a sealable pouch design was known to the Creator, because he used it in the yapok (water opossum, Chironectes minimus). But... but... the eggs might get broken! So, uh, how about having live young?

Many thanks to Doubting Didymus at IIDB for this item.

Cell organelles

Cell organelles such as mitochondria and chloroplasts have their own DNA, which is inherited separately from the rest of an organisms' genetic material. Why should the code for small elements within each eukaryotic cell be inherited separately and differently from that which forms the rest of the organism in all its intricacy -- the leaves, bone, teeth, eyes, antennae or brains? An odd design -- and the numerous structural and biochemical resemblances between these organelles and existing parasitic bacteria are mere coincidences, of course.

Human limb regeneration

... or rather, our lack of it. If a 'lowly' salamander loses a limb, it can grow another one. It does this by reactivating the genetic instructions for limb formation that, in the embryo, formed the limb first time round. If we are such important creatures to the Creator, why did he not bother to endow us with this ability? Why do mammals in general not have this blatantly useful feature?

Flatfish skulls

The twisted skulls of bony flatfish (order Pleuronectiformes): around 500 species including halibut, plaice, sole and turbot. If you are a fish and want to hug the contours of the sea bed, there are two ways your body can be flattened. The most obvious is front to back, laying on your tummy, as rays and some sharks are. Sharks are generally already slightly flattened dorsoventrally. Most bony fish, however, tend to be flattened in a vertical direction (higher than they are wide). No surprise to an evolutionary biologist, then, that those bony flatfish that do swim at the bottom are flattened sideways, and lay on their side.

The problem with this is that one eye would always be pointing at the sea bed. They solve this by the skull contorting during development, so that one eye migrates to the other side. You will notice though that their mouths are still sideways on. They are cartoon stereotypes of what a mutant should look like. How is this 'intelligent design', rather than design constrained by history, by the materials it started with?

The human appendix

Why is such a great shape... if the idea's for it to be a pocket to trap bacteria in, that is. It is common (about 15% of everyone and about 7% of US residents are affected at some point in their lives) for it to become distended and blocked, so that the bacteria can invade the wall, leading, untreated (as it would have been for nearly all of our past), to potentially lethal perforation.

The male urethra

The urethra -- the tube via which urine exits the body -- is a soft tube. And it runs through the prostate, an organ prone to infection and subsequent swelling.

A mechanical engineer, a chemical engineer and a civil engineer were discussing the human body in the pub. "The body was clearly designed by a mechanical engineer... look at all the levers and joints." "No no no, it was obviously designed by a chemist, it's full of amazing chemical reactions!" "I'm sorry", said the civil engineer, "but it was undoubtedly a civil engineer. I've run countless sewage pipes through recreational areas myself..."

The human spine

Bipedal vertebrates usually carry much of the spine roughly horizontally, and balance it with a tail. Equally, a string of cotton reels with spongy cushions between is a good cantilever bridge type design for flexible quadrupedal running. But it's a lousy thing to stand on its end and withstand the compression strains of vertical bipedalism. Compression strains are best absorbed by pillars. If you want the pillars to be flexible, you put joints in them. In biology, we have examples called 'legs'.

And why thread so important a feature as the spinal cord through the middle of this, where disc damage can cause anything from pain to paralysis?

The spine's 'design' thus results in back pain which causes over 149 million annual days off work in the U.S. alone, costing $50 to $100 billion in lost wages and medical costs, 80% of people being affected by back pain at some point in their lives, backache during pregnancy (extra weight pulling in an out-and-down direction it can't happily support), and why you find, if you've ever 'slipped' (herniated) a disc, that about the only comfortable position is on all fours.

The human knee

Ask any long-distance runner or basketball player. Or even Morris dancer.

The human jaw

It is too small for the number of teeth it holds, hence impacted wisdom teeth (third molars).

Useless beetle wings

Numerous beetle species are flightless, such as darkling beetles (Tenebrionidae, eg Eleodes species), the Kauai flightless stag beetle (Apterocyclus honoluluensis), and many weevils (Curculionidae, eg the Japanese weevil Pseudocneorhinus bifasciatus). Darkling beetles, for instance, are ground-dwelling and feed on decaying vegetation, such as dead leaves and rotting wood. Females lay their eggs in soil, the larvae hatch, mature and pupate in soil, and the adult beetles emerge from -- you've guessed it, the soil.

Like most beetles, they have wings... but these are sealed in beneath fused wing covers (elytra), and so the beetles are flightless. For darklings, the fused elytra help conserve water; for others they are a better protection for the abdomen. Wings are obviously not needed for flight for ground-dwelling beetles. The question is, why is the shell on their backs made of wing covers, and why are there (often greatly reduced) wings beneath them? Wings that cannot work on creatures that do not need wings at all?!

Halteres

Instead of the two pairs of wings that most flying insects have, flies (Diptera) have one pair, and instead of the second pair, they have a pair of tiny halteres ('balancing organs'). Halteres are a neat piece of kit. Many flies can perform amazing aerial acrobatics: they can hover, rotate on their own axis, fly through spaces little wider than their wingspan, and even fly backwards. All these abilities are aided by the halteres, which act like tiny gyroscopes. The sensory organs at the base of each haltere form three groups at right angles to each other, which allows the fly to tell how fast it is flying and turning, and whether it is being blown off course.

Halteres are, then, very well designed for this purpose. And yet... remember where they are located? There is a mutation in flies (best studied in Drosophila melanogaster fruitflies) which 'switches on' the homeobox Ultrabithorax (UBX) gene. Guess what? The halteres grow into a second pair of wings. If halteres were balancing organs, specifically designed for that job, how can they become wings -- that is, things designed for a different purpose? Surely it's not because that's what the used to be...?

Flightless bird wings

Maybe some species use them for something else, but kiwis (Apteryx, four separate species) barely have wings. Barely being the point.

Booby nests

As is well known, birds generally make nests. Well, there's a bird called the blue-footed booby, whose females lay their eggs on bare rock and build no nest. Yet the male still collects nesting materials and presents them to the female during courtship, just as other species that actually build nests do.

Gannet nostrils

Birds of the family Sulidae, the boobies and gannets, are diving birds, plunging from height into the water. And one of their adaptations to this is that they lack external nostrils. This makes sense: the water would otherwise get shoved up their noses on impact.

So is this intelligent design? Not exactly. For though they lack external nostrils, they have everything else that constitutes nasal airways inside their beaks -- the septum, choana etc -- it's just that the nostrils are sealed off at the outside. Having nasal airways that cannot work (since they are blind-ended) is pretty pointless design. Why bother having them at all?

See J B Nelson (1978): The Sulidae: Gannets and Boobies. Aberdeen University Study Series 154, Oxford University Press. Many thanks to Urvogel Reverie at IIDB for the reference.

External testicles

Mammalian testes form inside the body, and then have to pass out through the abdominal wall to the scrotum so they can be at a more conducive temperature for sperm formation. Not only is that odd (why can't sperm be made at body temperature?), but the process leaves a weak spot in the muscle wall. This 'inguinal ring' is liable to herniate, which both obstructs or strangulates the bowel and stifles blood flow to the testicles.

Also, testicular temperature regulation requires a huge investment of musculature and blood flow. Interior testicles would be much more efficient and protected to boot (no pun intended).

Non-coding DNA

Most organisms, humans included, contain in every cell vast quantity of non-coding or 'junk' DNA: pseudogenes, introns, transposons, retrotransposons, etc, which does little for its owner except get itself copied. Pseudogenes, for instance, are chunks of DNA which have a resemblance to known genes that is too improbable to be coincidence, but which are not prefaced with a 'start' codon. Thus the DNA-to-RNA transcription system doesn't know that 'here is a gene to be expressed'.

This is not just an idle observation: about 98% of human DNA is ‘junk’ DNA, not coding for any protein. For example, the Alu sequences are repeated some million or so times, and this one family alone accounts for about 5% of our DNA. (However, Alu might have a use after all, but it would appear that this use developed after the Alu's appeared, because most living things do just fine without them.) In Drosophila fruitflies, 40% of the genome is taken up by three sets of so-called 'satellite DNA': pieces just seven 'letters' long, with no 'meaning', repeated eleven million, 3.6 million and 3.6 million times.

Using more materials than are needed is not good design.

Genes for non-existent features

Birds do not have teeth. But birds have genes, normally non-functioning, for making teeth.

Birds do not have full fibulas (the second, smaller lower leg bone); it is that little splinty thing that you find down the side of a chicken drumstick. And their tarsals (ankle bones) are fused into a single lump and to the other leg bone, the tibia, forming the main part of the drumstick, the tibiotarsus. But birds have genes, normally non-functioning, for making complete fibulas with separate tarsals .

Horses have a single toe on each leg. But horses have genes, normally non-functioning, for extra toes.

What are genes for making these things doing in creatures that don't need them, don't normally have them... and if separately designed, never have had them?

Hollow ostrich bones

Ostriches, which are not known for their flying abilities, have hollow bones. They share this feature with flighted birds (except in their legs, where strength is now a survival attribute that natural selection can operate upon). Being ground-based, such weight-reduction does not seem appropriate... but if this is a useful feature, why do other land animals not have it?

Solid bat bones

Bats, which are well known for their flying abilities, share with terrestrial mammals -- from elephant to mouse -- their usual solid bone structure. One has to wonder why the designer did not give bats the hollow, weight-reducing, bone structure design he used throughout birds (whether appropriate or not). Conversely, if solid bones are better for a flying thing, why do no flying birds have this feature?

The genetic code

DNA has a remarkable copying fidelity... yet mutations -- errors -- are far from rare. If the Good Lord wanted all his creations to be separate, immutable kinds, all he had to do was make the copying mechanism flawless. Meiotic recombination and outcrossing (sex) would still make different individuals. Hey presto -- no evolution. But the system is flawed... so the designer must... want evolution?

Even mere mortal Francis Crick, co-discoverer of DNA's structure with James Watson, proposed a more efficient and robust 'comma-free' code than the real one that living things use, before the real one was known. Crick's code design avoids frameshift mutations and has precisely as many states as there are amino acids to be coded for. Rather more optimal... and no known life uses it.

Greenland shark eyes

Sharks hunt, up close at least, by sight. Greenland sharks (Somniosus microcephalus), however, are nearly all blind, due to the presence of parasitic copepods (a subclass of crustaceans) that feed on the skin of their eyes. The sharks benefit because the copepods are bioluminous, and by their wriggling attract other fish which the sharks then snap up. But where is the intelligent design in such a complex set-up, and why does the shark need eyes if they are going to be parasitised to blindness as part of the design? There are other more straightforward ways to lure fish with a bait, as anglerfish (order Lophiiformes -- about 210 different species of them) show, rather than first having eyes, then having them go blind.

Lesbian lizards

Cnemidophorus whiptail lizards are parthenogenic -- they are all females, no males. But it's been found that an individual's fertility increases when another female acts like a male and attempts to copulate with it (they apparently do this quite regularly and quite unprovoked by experimenters, by the way). These lizards' nearest relatives -- oh okay, the ones most similar to them in geography, genetics, anatomy and biochemistry -- are sexual species. And the hormones for reproduction in these others are stimulated by sexual behaviour. So it's no surprise -- to 'evolutionists' -- that although Cnemidophorus are parthenogenetic, simulated sexual behaviour increases fertility. But it's a bit of an odd thing to design. (Especially if the designer were the Biblical God, for Leviticus seems to be rather against girl-on-girl action...)

See Crews and Young (1991): 'Pseudocopulation in nature in a unisexual whiptail lizard', Animal Behaviour 42: 512-514; Crews and Fitzgerald (1980): ' "Sexual" behavior in parthenogenetic lizards (Cnemidophorus)', Proceedings of the National Academy of Science 77: 499-502.

Gastropod development

As they develop, all gastropod mollusc larvae do a 90 to 180 degree twist, so that their mantle, kidney opening and anus are sticking out over their heads. Which seems rather odd design, but okay... The really stupid design is the fact that slugs (subclass Pulmonata) and sea slugs (subclass Opisthobranchia) then do an untwist, and straighten their bodies out again.

Goose bumps

Since humans (especially women) generally have little body hair, it is pointless having the same system of muscles (the arrectores pilorum) and sympathetic nerves which in most mammals raises the hairs in response cold or fear. Nevertheless, we get goose bumps (cutis anserina). What's more, if our skin is meant to be mostly bare, why do we have the tiny ineffectual hairs (and separate muscles and nerves for them) at all?

Human grasping reflex

The grasping reflex in human babies would only seem to make sense if we used to have rather more body hair, like other primates. It appears a rather pointless design otherwise."
 
There is whole other theoay developed by a guy named Stephen Wolfram-he wrote the original comuter programming book called Mathmatica- but his new one is called "New Kind Of science"

he says the world works like computer code. I won't even try to get into it but here is a link to a good summary of it.

http://www.wolframscience.com/summary/

also some interesting ideas on this subject by a guy named Ray Kurweil

check out

http://www.kurzweilai.net/index.html?flash=1
 
"By the way, whale hip bones do none of those things. They're entirely superfluous." but could they serve some purpose you know not of? some parts of animal bodies once were thought to have no reason, and then made sense after studies.

"How do you know that"... hahaha, a religious skeptic. It's a biological fact." by that i meant what knowledge do you found that on, and what can researchers know about whales hip bones, when they know almost nothing about the blue whales reproduction or migration patterns?

" Want a list of a whole lot more? I have about 100 more of these. There are probably thousands in total. Would you like to go through each and explain why they're all useful for some purpose? So far you're making some pretty weak justifications. Try some more"

"try some more", like you are feeding me a meal? dude. come off it. you want me to read that, try more respect next time.
 
what you should is that, maybe, just maybe, there are reasons for this that researchers haven't found yet, or missinterpreted. the main question i would ask in that is: does it limit the creature in its function in any way? does ot hamper what it does, and if so, biological law would state that would be thrown away. just a thought.
 
J.D._May: who the hell are you quoting here: They're entirely superfluous. "How do you know that"... hahaha, a religious skeptic.

Are you quoting yourself, and then laughing at yourself. Anyone in this forum can copy and paste...

So is it that you completely disagree with Ireducible Complexity? If so, fair enough, people in general are very skeptical about something that they do not initally believe, as I am and very obviously you are too.

The fact is no one is able to witness macro evolution, so in no shape or form is any one person more right than someone else. NOTHING can prove against or for it...it is on a geological timescale that in itself is hard for the human mind to comprehend.

I think it is funny how any person who is not religious at all will always through little blurps into a thread: "religious sketpic"...where the hell are you pulling enough information out to judge me....I don't know anything about you and do you see me calling you "anti-religious little prick"...hells no, b/c that would be completely unjustified as is your comment. Maybe think about what you write first and how it may sound to someone else reading it.

I think it is difficult for such large scale evolution from atoms to humans can occur over such small time as a few billion years...that is pretty damn quick. I am not saying macro evolution doesn't exist, but merely there is a chance it doesn't. Also, I challenge you to attempt to think about things from various perspectives. Your posts appear to be pretty damn one sided. I know that all those things you posted are true and I have heard them before. I do not simply disregard them but try to understand them better and take a look around from the backside.
 
It is at first somewhat hard to believe that such complex systems can naturally be created through generations of trial and error. But remember two things:

-Evolution has millions of generations to occur. Random errors in coding and processing of DNA happen in your body everyday. Most of these mistakes are deleted, but some stay. Imagine that happening millions of times.

-Out of the 3 million base pairs of DNA in the human genome, 95% isnt expressed. Thats a lot of leftovers. What was this past coding used for?

I agree that these organic processes are incredibly complex, but transitional and related processes occur in smaller life forms as well. In the example of blood clotting, platlets and fibrous mesh together at the site of puncture via a cascade of organic reactions. I quote:

"Blood clotting evolved there from two pre-existing proteins, normally found in separate compartments of the body, that had a fortuituous interaction when damage to a blood vessel brought them together. Once that interaction was established, natural selection did the rest."

Source: http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/DI/clot/Clotting.html

As for evolution of the eyeball, imagine if 99% of all organisms were blind. The 1% with even a way to distinguish light over dark would have an enormous advantage in finding food, mating, etc. Intermediate stages of the eye do actually exist in nature. Mollusks have very primitive eyes, having just a cavity and light sensitive cells with no cornea or iris. Also, because the eye is essentially proteins interacting, when we look at some animals, they have evolved to use different protiens for thier eye. Lactate dehydrogenase is used in some birds and reptiles, while most mammals use a heat shock protein (a protein that repairs other misshapen ones).

I think the main idea im trying to get across is that if you probe a little deeper, nothing is really as it seems. There are transitional steps and intermediate stages in organic reactions, as complex as they might seem. Oh, and the source for the eyeball stuff is here:

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/sep99/936884377.Ev.r.html
 
J.D._May: next time just give me the URL and save us all some time.

Human eyeballs are not the same as a fishes...they are way more complex. Also, what are the superfluous parts on all those animals evolving into? are those shitty eyes that exist on the fish who live in the dark evolving into better eyes....nope. It is not like these shitty parts are evolving into better parts...they are disappearing. I doubt we got our eyeball configuration from some creature who had superfluous eyes...then for some reason they developed into proper eyes (while still living in the dark...so it would have no reason to develop proper eyes)?
 
"nothing is really as it seems"

I couldn't agree more...and because if this I am not saying that I am right or you are right....probably because none of us are right, or have the capacity to understand what the hell is really going on. We are simply outlining opinions, and chances are things are much different than we think.

haha, yeah this thread is moving damn quick...my last post too late.
 
Well, in short, say you have 100 fish in a deep dark ocean, and thats it (ok, they have food too). They have small beady eyes that only allow them to see light (food) and dark. Now, over time, some of these fish will begin to wander into the higher and much more light filled ocean. If theres nothing there to eat them, they will find more abundant food and less competition from thier old freinds down in the deep. To see their food better though, they will naturally select eyes to develop. Soon, enough random errors will occur in transcription that this subsecies will be able to see shades and maybe even color. But its deep dark cousin will still retain is near useless eyes. Its at a disadvantage if it loses them (they will starve) and gains nothing in the deep if they have color (a fish with color vision down there wont eat more, produce more offspring, etc).

Hope that kinda clarifies.
 
That makes sense, and I agree with that. Of course that leads to the question of why would fish exist down deep prior to higher up in the water.

too many questions, not enough answers...that is how it should be too b/c it keeps the mind thinkgin
 
I can't beleive I just read that whole thing, its interesting but in some points I don't get what it was supporting.

Just a thought tho, where did morals or standards come from then? Why do humans have a concsious something had to create the society and beleif we have.
 
Reading everything, damn.... I dont think i've completely done that, theres been some skimming. The whole concept of human conciousness and sense of morals is interesting, but i dunno, this thread might get too crowded if people get going on that. Definently an interesting topic tho.
 
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