E-mail from Michael Moore

Whoa, slow down guys. There is no proof that we are infact saving lives by going to war with two countries that are supposedly tied to terrorism. We have no idea if we have at all prevented terrorist actions by killing off people that may be related to possible terrorist groups that were capable of possibly attacking the United States.

Here Comes A Special Boy!

''oh my god inniak and steel both do sex changes and inniaks is fucken insane'' - ballstothewall
 
Yes, that is right, only the potential terrorist and hopefully the CIA knows how many attempts have been thwarted. But i garentee you that there have been some that due to the WOT have been stopped. War against ones homeland in the aftermath of an attack acts as a pretty good deterant.

Driving that Train
 
al qaeda has already made many more threats on america. by us showing our force has most likely helped stage off these actions

dont worry about what i can or cant do, worry about what you cant do to me
 
'the CIA'

Central Intelligence Agency. Were they the ones that also knew there were immense amounts of weapons of mass destruction? I, as well as many, are still waiting for all of the WoMD's to be found. Look at how much Iraq must have, according to the CIA report:http://www.cia.gov/cia/reports/iraq_wmd/Iraq_Oct_2002.htm

Here Comes A Special Boy!

''oh my god inniak and steel both do sex changes and inniaks is fucken insane'' - ballstothewall
 
You would also think, that if the CIA actually knew of attacks that were stopped because of this supposed 'war on terror'..wouldn't they tell the public? That may change public opinion on the war if the CIA stated that something was actually working.

Here Comes A Special Boy!

''oh my god inniak and steel both do sex changes and inniaks is fucken insane'' - ballstothewall
 
no they wouldnt say anything, it would cause public hysteria

dont worry about what i can or cant do, worry about what you cant do to me
 
Thats the problem with the war, you can see the drawbacks much more easily then the benefits. Yet, the benfits still exist even if they are buried under eyes only and classified. And mabey the CIA didn't even know about a concived attack, but just our recent agressive actions have caused the terrorist to drop it and watch their backs out of fear.

Driving that Train
 
So you're supporting the war under your belief that things are going well?

Here Comes A Special Boy!

''oh my god inniak and steel both do sex changes and inniaks is fucken insane'' - ballstothewall
 
Yes, and for other reasons that i said in the fuck the towel heads thread that just was deleated. But I support it and I think it is going well because we have had no terror attacks.

Driving that Train
 
What would you believe if we had one tomorrow?

Here Comes A Special Boy!

''oh my god inniak and steel both do sex changes and inniaks is fucken insane'' - ballstothewall
 
alright, this is just stupid, I can't answer a stupid hypothetical like that, but i will tell you this we will not have an attack tomorrow because the war is going well, i know it is a bold statement but it is in response to a stupid one

Driving that Train
 
Martock... or whatever the name is. WMD have been found in Iraq. I rocket filled with Napon(sp) gas was fired at US troops weeks ago. On;y a few radio and tv stations reported it.

make love to me toilet-Atlantaski
 
On one hand it's refreshing to see someone like MM. He wants to unveil some of the apparant secrets the us gvt. has been keeping from the american people through out the years. It's refreshing to know that there are people out there who are in power and they want the rest of us to know what's actually going on.

On the other hand MM has been accused of telling his version of the truth in his movies ('bowling for colombine' as well as 'roger and me'). It's hard to go in to a movie of his with the thought in the back or your moind 'how much of this is true and how much is his spin?'. One thing we have to remember is that he's an entertaner. He's out to make money, he's out to make a good FILM it's not a news program. Personally I'm pretty interested in seeing the movie but I'm not sure if it will change my opinions of the us gvt. or my opinions of Sept 11.

Also, MM rant at the oscars last year just furthers my belief that he actually has a personal interest in seeing the bush administration fail (do not turn this into a political debate.) It just seems to me that he is a typical conspiracy theorist who has it out for the current president (if you've read 'stupid white men' you'll know what i'm talking about). What's different about MM is he has a video camera.

Eggs and bacon please, eggs over skeezy
 
Who has seen Moore's tv show, 'The Awful Truth' ?

It's on dvd, it fuckin rules...as will this movie.

I saw moore's first film

'Wheres Bob'? A search for the owner of ford motors who shut down the plant in Flint and made it a ghost town.

“Chaos often breeds life, when order breeds habit�

Activism without chaos? or Chaos without activism?

'The problem with today's youth is not that our fathers don't believe in us, but that we do not believe in our fathers.' - Me.
 
u know napalm isnt a weapon of mass destruction right??? ok good. witht hat said the war is costing us poor people trillions of dollars, ur taxes will be raised, ur gonna pay more at the pump, and u pay more at the pump, and everyones prices go up, when the mcdonalds ceo isnt making as much money as he could because he has to fill up his tank in his hummer 4 times a week costing him 75 dollars each time he does, now hes gotta raise the price of food at mcdonalds to make up for what he lost.

all this war has done has sent money the wrong direction, money that could improve our own imperfect nation. i think once we get it perfect, then go push our beliefs onto other people, but we are far away from perfect.

and whoever was bad mouthing the people that go see this film 'to let micheal more tell u how to think' is a jackass. do you realize throughout your whole life school, parents, what u see on tv etc etc. do tell you how to think, everything u got in ur head someone problably taught you. and i think moores point is to show people a side of a story that is never shown on tv, fand to make you think about it. because its not good for the united states way of living. and the untied states way of living is simply put; get money. screw everyone in the way, just get money. get money to consume a bunch of products you see your favorite skier wearing or you see in a commercial on mtv.

EvERyThinG LeADs tO TODaY

 
Do you think that everyone just was force feed their ideas through media, parents, school etc. That may resemble your epistemology due to demenished mental facilities but do you think that everyone else does not have the same inapptitude for reasoning. While I can only speak for my self on this subject i will say this, I think for my self. I don't let my parents tell me what to think, the media (Fox News or Moore), and my school. I have been able to deduce from the facts that are given to me and what I believe what I think. And while others may try to make me think one way they will not succed.

Driving that Train
 
Check out the trailer, then say hes biased after seeing what The Man has to say about the patriot Act

 
Hey bigJ, how about instead of accusing those who disagree with you of being plagued with diminished mental facilities, you actually make an argument? Oh, and for your information, it would be totally illegal to do that to peoples' cars. Lowers resale value. you'd lose thousands of dollars in restitution. For your further information:

e·pis·te·mol·o·gy, n.

1. The branch of philosophy that studies the nature of knowledge, its presuppositions and foundations, and its extent and validity.

If you're going to use big words for no reason, first take the time to find out what they actually mean. Here, this might be useful for you:

Honestly, you aren't equipped to do that. Just make your point (if you eventually find one) in the vernacular.

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In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
My point, clear cut, is that no one tells me how to think, I do that on my own.

Driving that Train
 
^Thank you. Now for my next question, do you 'Think for yourself' arbitrarily, or do you incorporate fact into your conclusions?

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In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
Uh... I just did what I told him not to. Ok, to restate that, where do you get the facts that allow you to form these ideas you get for yourself? Are facts involved at all?

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In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
Alright, I do incorperate facts into what I think, it is not arbitrary. And yes, I know that what Moore's film presents is fact, albeit slanted to the left, and that is why I am indeed going to see his film even though I don't agree with the slant. However, I do believe that if one man is going to put forth one half ot the truth then another person needs to release the other half in an easy for the public to digest media. I am not so pissed of at Moore as much as I am pissed of that he doesn't have a right wing counterpart.

Driving that Train
 
wow. harsh. ( not undeservedly so, but harsh)

Mercy's eyes are blue

When she places them in front of you

Nothing holds a roman candle to

The solemn warmth you feel inside

 
and hes got some rightie counterparts... i beleive that sean hannity was mentioned earlier... i bet moore would love a talk show of his own on, um, well whatever channel, but the fact that he is morbidly obese, and seems to have an aversion to shaving would probably prevent that from ever happening, so he has to make his indie films.

Mercy's eyes are blue

When she places them in front of you

Nothing holds a roman candle to

The solemn warmth you feel inside

 
^More importantly... what network would air it?

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
yeah, i was having a hard time coming up with one, but pbs already gives b. moyers a good ammount of airplay... micheal moore isnt too far removed from that guy... i would love for my taxes to go to support a mike moore talk show on pbs.... (if you need a sarcasm meter for that one, well, thats a shame.)

Mercy's eyes are blue

When she places them in front of you

Nothing holds a roman candle to

The solemn warmth you feel inside

 
There are plenty of fat ugly people on TV. Micheal Moore might be able to get a show, but he still reaches a lot of people with his movies and books, you can't do everything.

Bringing back what BigJ said a while ago about terrorists backing off because of what the US, i believe that to be totally false. These are terrorists, not a group of ragtag kids who are mad. They are organized, smart, fearless people who devote their lives to commiting acts of violence against countries like the US. The US starting a war on terror is not going to make them think 'oh wow, the us is after us, i better stop making plans to blow them up' More like they'll be thinking 'those bastards think they can thwart us by starting some war, what idiots. Better get back to my plans to blow up the capitol.' The terrorists will be more careful, but they are not going to be deterred by the US's threats.

'im gonna vote fer bush bec he has done good things' - estaked

'There is nothing wrong with Pres. Bush.' - ScratchCobra66

'Everyday the biased scum-of-the-earth imbecile that is Bill O'Reilly never ceases to amaze me with his overall idiocy and lack of grey cells between his ears.' - trevorwoulddoit

 
By the way, in my opinion, Bill Moyers is one of the most quality reporters out there. He exposes corruption, deception and untruthfullness, and is fairly unbiased about it(although not completely). He interviews all types of interesting people from both sides, asks tough questions, and gives an angle on things and tackles different issues, than you get from most news programs.

Micheal Moore isn't that far removed from him in the sense that he exposes corruption, deception and untruthfullness and that he takes on some interesting issues. he's definitely not unbiased about it though, and i think that is a large difference between the two.

I think Moyers only gets an hour of airtime a week anyways, which isn't that much time.

'im gonna vote fer bush bec he has done good things' - estaked

'There is nothing wrong with Pres. Bush.' - ScratchCobra66

'Everyday the biased scum-of-the-earth imbecile that is Bill O'Reilly never ceases to amaze me with his overall idiocy and lack of grey cells between his ears.' - trevorwoulddoit

 
So, rather then going and starting a war we should just sit back and take the attacks, roll with the punches? I am sorry but I can't believe that someone would rely on diplomacy to resolve the issue of terrorism. The terrorists do not have emmbassys or envoys. There is no other route to take but war, and yes I do think it is working. There have been no terrorist attack on the United States since 9-11, and that is an example enough for me. This is a difficult argument from both sides because there is no well defined enemy and there is nothing but safety if we are succesful. So even if the war on terror is or will be a great success we will have nothing to show for it but our lives and safety.

Driving that Train
 
'There have been no terrorist attack on the United States since 9-11, and that is an example enough for me' If there being no terrorist attacks in less than three years since we started this 'war on terror' is enough evidence for you, you need to have your head checked. Terrorist attacks don't happen every 3 years in the US. They happen on very rare occasions, and just because an attack on the US hasn't happened, it doesn' mean this war has been succesful. Terrorist attacks are big things that need to be carefully planned out, and aren't the type of thing that Al Qaida (sp?) can churn out every week.

Anyways, the main point of my post was that us waging a war on terrorists won't make them afraid in the slightest. What works against terrorists best is intelligence and inside knowledge of the whereabouts of terrorists, something that was lacking when 9/11 happened. Dropping bombs and hurting civilians doesn't work too well.

'im gonna vote fer bush bec he has done good things' - estaked

'There is nothing wrong with Pres. Bush.' - ScratchCobra66

'Everyday the biased scum-of-the-earth imbecile that is Bill O'Reilly never ceases to amaze me with his overall idiocy and lack of grey cells between his ears.' - trevorwoulddoit

 
So, you suggest that instead of detering possible terrorists we should wait until the zero hour comes and then act. However, you still can present no evedence that the war on terror in not work as I can show no concrete evedence that it is. I am sorry but the CIA has failed once before and I would rather go with the approach of a grassroots war.

Driving that Train
 
Personally, I was for Afghanistan. I think the removal of the Taliban was beneficial for all parties... except the Taliban. However, the issue is Iraq, not Afghanistan, and whether this 'war on terror' is really a war on terror, or an excuse for this administration to achieve whatever international goals it might have lined up. The majority of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis. Ha anything happened to Saudi Arabia? That's a big 'No.' If the Bush Doctrine is for real, and the US will not allow any nation to harbor or support terrorists, then I have to say, the army will be VERY busy in the future.

Oh, and I love that logic... there have been no attacks, so it's working. I just invented some tiger repellant. I think it works... I mean, I'm not being attacked by tigers at the moment.

Vote Enron/Halliburton '04! FOUR MORE WARS!

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
I think everyone could agree that there are some more suitable enemies that we could attack first (Iran, Sudan, etc.), but my truck does not run on bio-diesel.

Driving that Train
 
Im not saying we wait until the terrorists are about to do their damage. With the right intelligence, these acts can be prevented before they're even started. The CIA needs to undergo a reconstruction process and a change in personel (and it probably will) because it is pretty clear that they did not do a sufficient job in dealing with the information that they received about Al Qaida.

'im gonna vote fer bush bec he has done good things' - estaked

'There is nothing wrong with Pres. Bush.' - ScratchCobra66

'Everyday the biased scum-of-the-earth imbecile that is Bill O'Reilly never ceases to amaze me with his overall idiocy and lack of grey cells between his ears.' - trevorwoulddoit

 
By the way, i hope you're aware of the fact that the very notion of attacking another nation because they might do something is fundamentally opposed to the very principles on which your nation is founded. It's downright wrong to set a precedent for preclusion. You don't put people in jail for what they might do. An ounce of prevention may be worth a pound of cure, but to assume that we can predict the future and plan present foreign policy based on those wild assumptions and estimates is ridiculous, illegal, and contrary to the principle of liberty itself.

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
However, those nations still harbor the enemy. They are home to training camps and varous factions of terror groups including Al Qadia, Hezbulla, and HAMAS, and Al Qadia is our enemy. I do not think, however, we should reduce ourselves to total war, but I do not believe that we can sit idlely while our attackers are hiding. I believe in the idea that if a nation harbors terrorist they become a hostile nation and should be treated thusly. Our attackers our still out there, and I am not about to wait until their next plot to take them out. If we are idle in our actions it will only make the teroor groups stronger and better orginized, which has no benefits for us.

Also, the preemptive strikes on these nations would not be out of the question, yet only after diplomatic options have been exhausted.

Driving that Train
 
i agree^, preemptive strike is acceptable if there is an extremely good chance of it preventing harm, but its absolutely wrong when we attack a country on faulty intelligence because we think (contrary to the UN weapons inspectors) that there are weapons of mass destruction.

'im gonna vote fer bush bec he has done good things' - estaked

'There is nothing wrong with Pres. Bush.' - ScratchCobra66

'Everyday the biased scum-of-the-earth imbecile that is Bill O'Reilly never ceases to amaze me with his overall idiocy and lack of grey cells between his ears.' - trevorwoulddoit

 
i meant to point to JD

'im gonna vote fer bush bec he has done good things' - estaked

'There is nothing wrong with Pres. Bush.' - ScratchCobra66

'Everyday the biased scum-of-the-earth imbecile that is Bill O'Reilly never ceases to amaze me with his overall idiocy and lack of grey cells between his ears.' - trevorwoulddoit

 
Did I say any thing about Iraq? I have explained my position on that war plenty of times.

Driving that Train
 
BigJ, Maybe you didn't read my post... do you understand that preemptive strikes like those you're endorsing go against the political and philosophical ideals upon which the U.S. is based? You're advocating actions that will start your country down a dangerous path... it's a slippery slope, and at the bottom, you'll the end of everything America is supposed to stand for.

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
*you'll find

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
I said that diplomatic options should be exhausted prior to a strike, have the nations take care of the terrorist problem, yet if they fail to we move in. The terrorist have already struck, any strike now is not totally preemtive but somewhat retalitory.

Driving that Train
 
Exactly. In Afghanistan. Which everyone agreed with. NOT in Iraq, which has no ties with Alqaida aside from a common religion.

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
Prior to the war in Iraq I was not in favor with the war, knowing that Hussain and Bin Laden were not connected and the fact that there were probally no WMDs. Yet, once the war started I changed my position, and I said I would chamge my position once the war started prior to the war. And I believe that the Iraqi people are better without Sadam, yet I realize that we currently have no easy way to back out of the war.

Driving that Train
 
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