do controversial issue threads teach anybody anything?

alpinecowboy84

alpinecowboy84

Active member
we all know how often controversial issue threads make it into this forum, gay marriage, bush, us foreign policy, etc. time and time again liberals like myself, lay down some serious information to back up the purity of anti-conservative morality. listen, plenty of you republicans are intelligent people but rarely do i see you blow us out of the water. maybe i'm biased but i am yet to see a liberal arguement obliterated by republican conservatism. in that i (admittedly biased) firmly state that we liberals tend to provide more convincing arguements. do you conservatives ever learn from what we say? because i don't think i've ever read a thread that involves controversial issues where a conservative says 'hmmn, man, i never really thought of it that way. thanks (fill in liberal ns member here).' do you ever venture into liberal theory, or are the white marbled walls of conservatism just too comforting?

song of the week to download: 'let me love you down' by INOJ

Willard: 'How many people had I already killed? There was those six that I know about for sure. Close enough to blow their last breath in my face. But this time it was an American and an officer. That wasn't supposed to make any difference to me, but it did. Shit... charging a man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500. I took the mission. What the hell else was I gonna do?'
 
Clearly your biased extends beyond the word biased it has become political BLINDNESS. I not only have said i respect the thoughts of many liberlas on here ill go as far as sayin. Crystal needs a park, and J.D. MAy also Jibtech provide very compelling arguments and are extremely intelligent. You my friend have lsot my respect because of this thread. My opinion on many issues has been changed i have even been flat wrong on certain things.

No i dont agree with every post a liberal makes but then that is becuz i would obviously be a liberal. I do things said on NS by liberals and even conservatives it just depends on the issue. But the fact that we dont agree is the beauty of it. We can build and learn from each other.

Pete is currently sulking around Mt. Hood, shooting with Poor Boyz Productions and hitting on Kristi Leskinen. 'She hates guys,' Pete lamented, 'so it’s not going good.' Apparently Canada isn’t the only thing that’s tough for Pete to get into.
 
^ Sorry thats a little confusing but bottomline for me NS has served as a grounding. I can take in the opinions from many ppl dems. and repubs. and create my own.

I find it ironic that you say we are the ones who are stuborn and unwilling to listen to your arguments as you post a thread basically sayin that all Liberlas are without flaw and their arguments are pure.

I say to you plz break down your golden walls of liberal arogance and realize we have valid arguments it is you(meanin only the creator of this thread NOT all liberals)who is unwilling to listen and learn from our opinions

Pete is currently sulking around Mt. Hood, shooting with Poor Boyz Productions and hitting on Kristi Leskinen. 'She hates guys,' Pete lamented, 'so it’s not going good.' Apparently Canada isn’t the only thing that’s tough for Pete to get into.
 
it doesn't 'teach' anything persay, but it gives a lot of people a chance to vent about anything they want and that's good for some people.

yay skiing is happy
 
It teaches me that when people become so based in their opinions they start to see them as facts, and everyone does that... Oh and to say no to drugs...

'...Smoking's bad, smoking killed my dad. Yeah, he was driving down the highway one day and as he was lighting his cigarette, it blew out the window. So he jumps out the door to save it, and ran himself over. Uh, you mind if I smoke?' -Olie Ollaussen, Ski Bum extraordinaire
 
Not only is bush a controversial issue, but so are Edwards and Kerry, who fondle each other on public television.

Listen to Bob Marley.
 
I don't think they'll ever change someone's opinion, but when you get thousands of opinionated kids on one forum they can't be stopped. Bring on the arguments...

________________

-Jeff

Bush '04
 
alpinecowboy, I think the reason that conservatives don't 'ablow liberals out of the water' are that there are more liberals. I don't know if it's just me, but it really seems that there are more liberals on this site. I'm open on some things, but on a lot of issues, nothing goes anywhere.

 
Really I just love to argue, and down here there aren't a whole lot of liberals to argue with, and if they are they keep their mouth shut around me. However, I do not partake blindly in threads that are controversal breeding grounds, I have obstained from quite a few. I don't think I will cahnge anyones opinion and I don't try, but I hope that people start thinking for themselves either way when they argue or read. I just don't like people who have their say things or believe things that they think are cool but don't know what they are saying. I hope that these arguments get people to think about what they are saying and why; get people to think for themselves.

Politicaly Active Since 1992

Drivin that Train
 
there aren't really a whole lot more liberals, it's that they scream louder and more often, and conservatives dont waste the breath, which is sort of a shame with the con. camp

'Really, I gotta say that I'm glad you exist, 'cause if there wasn't there'd be noone to make fun of and diss.'
 
no. thats why you gotta impose your views on others using violence.

----------------------

'Dude, check out this nasty gouge.'

'Your mom has a nasty gouge.'

'221 is fucking hilarious'

~221
 
They don't blow us out of any water, nor do we them, usually. True, the left is usually correct from an ethical standpoint, but since when is there only one perspective from which to view an issue? Granted, the 'homosexuality is morally wrong' debates are over fairly quickly (whether our resident bigots like to admit it or not), but aside from that, the conservatives here and elsewhere do manage to defend their position reasonably well (and there is almost always a defense for nearly any position). They may not win so many arguments, but very rarely do they lose them completely. It sometimes just seems that they're being savagely beaten when Atlantaski and Scratchcobra and their ilk start bringing down their own side. Skiinstead is back now, and that should help them. Anewmorning, Skiinstead and Veteran are a veritable triumvirate of conservativism on here.

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
well i consider compassion and ethics to be fundamentally important. conservative values from what i have seen (and repeatedly) seriously lack compassion and consideration. aren't these the values that americas forefathers intended to have as our country's foundation? not only do i think conservative values are morally flawed, but i think they are often incongruent with the constitution itself. should i simply ignore moral purity? obviously not all conservatives are like this, but a great majority seem to be. maybe i'm just paying too much attention to the bigotry. although you do make a good point JD, i'll have to pay attention to anewmorning. he is one of the member i respect the most and i didn't know he was conservative.

and to the first guy, i think you're being a bit extreme.

song of the week to download: 'let me love you down' by INOJ

Willard: 'How many people had I already killed? There was those six that I know about for sure. Close enough to blow their last breath in my face. But this time it was an American and an officer. That wasn't supposed to make any difference to me, but it did. Shit... charging a man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500. I took the mission. What the hell else was I gonna do?'
 
whoops, i meant the second guy (besides, i didn't know you respected me in the first place).

song of the week to download: 'let me love you down' by INOJ

Willard: 'How many people had I already killed? There was those six that I know about for sure. Close enough to blow their last breath in my face. But this time it was an American and an officer. That wasn't supposed to make any difference to me, but it did. Shit... charging a man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500. I took the mission. What the hell else was I gonna do?'
 
I find your arrogant 'holier then thou' opinons of yourselves slightly humorous, but I also find them disgusting. You see yourselves as moral stalwarts in a time of conservative ethical and moral decay, yet you still ascribe to positions that would be seen as truely horrid, particularly abortion. I just would like to ask how liberals can see themselves moral when they support the routine killing of unborn children. I know that this is a old and worn argument, but seriously, how can you support abortion and call yourselves moral. I hate to bring this up but the contradiction is just to great to ignore. Compassion my ass.

Politicaly Active Since 1992

Drivin that Train
 
^Well, let's not start that up again, but that's just one example of conflicting moral claims: whose idea of right is correct? There are arguments to support both sides, so we can't really say that one side or the other is being 'blown out of the water'. That is a good example. Now let's drop it. I'll send you a PM that might offer some explanation as to the moral thought process involved in the defense of a woman's right to choose.

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
Don't bother I have heard it all enough and don't want to argue it. I didn't want to bring it upat all but I thought yall need to be taken down a notch in regards to morality.

Politicaly Active Since 1992

Drivin that Train
 
They don't teach me anything... but they sure entertain me when I am board. Debating, shit flinging, whatever, I enjoy it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets say you have 10 000 people, about the number of drunken rowdy males at a Flames playoff game. Armed with nothing more than semi-auto 22\'s and flaming Alberta whiskey, this rag-tag group could fight a successful guerilla campaign against 150 000 US troops plus tens of thousands of coalition troops, costing $5 bil a MONTH and lasting at least 2 years. Pretty pathetic considering the US spends more on its military per year than every other country COMBINED.

-221
 
Good, we've managed to skirt the abortion debate and stayed on topic. Forgetting what my argument was for the moment, here was bigj's response.

''Thank you for that, and while I agree with many of your points I still can not see abortion for the sake of convienence justifiable regardless of the stage of development. ''

Well, I think you just answered Ian's question; these arguments don't teach anyone anything, because they refuse to accept them. The argument itself aside, you say you agree with my points. My conclusion follows necessarily from these premises you agree with. Therefore, you should accept the conclusion, but you do not. Basically, you've given us a prime example of the general rule that there's no way to convince anyone in these debates, but that doesn't change the fact that certain theories are right as far as morality, as a pseudo-science, is concerned. This is not opinion, it is a result of logical deduction. This is the problem, some people think ethics are like one's favourite flavour of ice cream, but strange as it may seem, there are solid premises and conclusions that prove right and wrong, and in many cases, the right is in fact morally wrong.

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
My wordplay might have become confusing there near the end; for those unable to follow, when i say 'the right is, in fact, often morally wrong', I mean right in the sense of conservative.

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
well i'm holding my tongue on the abortion issue, thats been argued and you've clearly established your stance on the matter - although literal experience with the issue might change that. you're right it is holier than thou, but i can't help but say again: conservatism is too often characterized by homophobia, xenophobia, racism, sexism, classism, too many negative ism's ia's.

song of the week to download: 'let me love you down' by INOJ

Willard: 'How many people had I already killed? There was those six that I know about for sure. Close enough to blow their last breath in my face. But this time it was an American and an officer. That wasn't supposed to make any difference to me, but it did. Shit... charging a man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500. I took the mission. What the hell else was I gonna do?'
 
^Typical liberal elitism, blanket statments do justice to no one. Bigots can be found in every corner of the political arena, regardless of alignment (NY has the highest KKK membership and it is a liberal state.)Please, blanket statments do no one justice, because liberals are seen, down here, as heathens and the polar opposite of morality. This is an argument that no one will win though, because we all think that we are right and will not accept the anything to the contrary.

Politicaly Active Since 1992

Drivin that Train
 
Generalizations don't help either side. In practice, he's often right; bigots tend to align themselves with the right. However, it is NOT THE CASE that the right necessarily aligns itself with bigotry, nor is it at all absurd to have a non-bigoted conservative. Anewmorning isn't. BigJ brings up a god point: Lincoln was a republican. Now, the parties have changed a lot over the years, but it just goes to show you: negative values commonly associated with the right are not always necessary to right-wing thinkers. They are not all racist, not all homophobic (though that one is a bit iffy, depending on what is called a 'conservative value'), and they are not all 'bad people'. Contrarily, values associated with the left are not always morally right; there are significant moral problems with affirmative action, for example. In that case, we might say that necessity precludes the morally 'right' response, but that still leaves the left in the moral wrong.

But is morality the only issue when it comes to social and economic policy? Not at all. Think of it this way. Lying is generally considered morally wrong. However, if you told me it should be illegal, I'd laugh at you. There are other things involved in this world than the ethical right.

------------

In a haze

A stormy haze

I’ll be around

I’ll be loving you

Always

Always

Here I am

And I’ll take my time

Here I am

And I’ll wait in line

Always

Always...
 
hmm... i was going to bring up something along those lines... victor hugo hit the nail on the head when he proclaimed that there is a tension between what is right, and what is fact. that is to say, what one should do, and what is prudent or pragmatic. it should also be noted that there will never be an ideal form of government, that is to say one that can successfully employ what is morally correct and at the same time make it function in an incorrect world. government and politics is really about where you draw your own personal line, and by no means is that line going to be straight to one side or the other.

in this line of thought, i think i benefit from the controversial issue threads. i have my way of thinking, and it most likley wont be changed from a post on NS. however, there have been times where ive read something and it has served as a sort of memory cue, and i will remember some idea or other that maybe i had forgotten about, and am thereby enhanced.

i also like these types of threads for the pleasure of jibtech's anecdotes about us loosing our marrige planners as a key in opposing gay marrige, and for the pleasure of seeing jd getting irratated at some of the posts that might be somewhat lacking.

anyhow, keep em coming i say.

Mercy's eyes are blue

When she places them in front of you

Nothing holds a roman candle to

The solemn warmth you feel inside

 
Take it how you like, I for one haven't made very many arguments/rebuttles in this forum lately.. not because these liberals that you speak of make a slaughtering with their arguments but because it's not even worth my time. Many of these attacks made are so far off and ungrounded that it's preposterous. If you are going to adamantly hate someone then hate them for the right reasons; not because of hearsay or some of these far fetched conspiracy theories - but for the facts.

If someone presents a good, solid, well-thought out, and intelligent point then I am willing to listen. I will try and see things through their perspective. I will take it into consideration. A number of times have I looked at things differently as a result. And yes I will even let them know that they make a great point - regardless if I particularly agree with it.

However, these users are far and few on ns. And to those who are.. I congratulate you.

To Alpinecowboy - lead by example.

Eat. Sleep. Breathe. Ski.

 
Alpinecowboy, if you expect to get through to anyone.. leading by example is your best bet. Actions speak louder than words. If you expect people to be openminded and try to see things through your perspective, then it's a good idea to try and do the same.

(a general statement, no way am I preaching to you... you're my homeboy. it's just some food for thought)

Eat. Sleep. Breathe. Ski.

 
I guees i shouldnt say i have lost respect for u becuase i have seen many good posts come from you and that shouldnt change from one post. Do you not see my frustration with such general statements pointed at me. I wont go into detail becuase J.D. said it very well. There are many issues i side with conservatives on and find their logic to fit my lifestyle and ideals. But those values do not include any such homophobia, racism, sexism. It seems you look at all conservatives as racist homophobic biggots. That could be why you find all of our arguments to be flawe perhaps if you open your eyes to the other side you will understand it shouldnt be about whos right or wrong but to stand on common ground.

I truly beleive political divide is useless and only separates our country further.

Pete is currently sulking around Mt. Hood, shooting with Poor Boyz Productions and hitting on Kristi Leskinen. 'She hates guys,' Pete lamented, 'so it’s not going good.' Apparently Canada isn’t the only thing that’s tough for Pete to get into.
 
Anewmorning, Skiinstead, and Veteran are definately the veritable triumvirate. Conservative but definately not bigots. I often find myself unexpectedly siding with them even. Veteran's also a Western Canadian Seperatist like me. Reperesent.

Warning: If you are reading this then this warning is for you. Every word you read of this useless fine print is another second off your life. Don't you have other things to do? Is your life so empty that you honestly can't think of a better way to spend these moments? Or are you so impressed with authority that you give respect and credence to all who claim it? Do you read everything you're supposed to read? Do you think everything you're supposed to think? Buy what you're told you should want? Get out of your apartment. Meet a member of the opposite sex (or same sex if you prefer). Stop the excessive shopping and masturbation. Quit your job. Start a fight. Prove you're alive. If you don't claim your humanity you will become a statistic.

You have been warned…

 
i never ever said that all conservatives were bigots, i simply said that political alignment is OFTEN characterized by that which i consider to by ultimately socially immoral. it would be absurd for me to condemn all conservatives as ignorant bigots, i'm simply not that stupid.

big j, yes you're right there are all kinds of people spread out across the country, but i never qualified this association geographically, i don't know where you got that idea.

and although many of you conservatives have already made your mind up about this one, i definately wouldn't consider myself to be blindly liberal. i have the ablity to listen and i enjoy hearing an opposing arguement as much as giving my own.

trust me i've been behind enemy lines. i've seen what its like to night after night spend my time in a room full of conservatives you simply don't want to listen. i've seen how ugly that kind of person can be and its among the last things i'd ever want to be.

as far as the slow mutation of republicans over the history of the united states, we've all heard that, i know about that, but i'm talking about recent history and contemporary times. learning from the past is obviously important, but i'm interested in changing the nows.

i am attempting to hang on to objectivity, i am fully aware of the implications of association. in a thousand conversations and debates i've had with conservatives i've seen so much ignorance and hate and misunderstanding. i'm keeping my eyes and ears open for legitimate conservative values, but i still can't help but see such negativity.

but please for the love of god, understand that isn't a blanket condemnation.

song of the week to download: 'let me love you down' by INOJ

Willard: 'How many people had I already killed? There was those six that I know about for sure. Close enough to blow their last breath in my face. But this time it was an American and an officer. That wasn't supposed to make any difference to me, but it did. Shit... charging a man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500. I took the mission. What the hell else was I gonna do?'
 
i don't see my views changing because of a thread on NS (not saying it's totally out of the question though), but i can say that there's been enough threads on fahrenheit 911 that i already knew everything that was going to happen when i saw it last night. so i guess i learned that

-Strode

Only in my sweetest dreams do my streams lack troubled waters, shallow pools full of shallow fools...
 
or maybe, im not trying to say this ion a mean way, but in a more factual way, ppl on here do not care about the issues as seriously or dont know all the information needed to help back them up. know what i mean?

Take me to your special place,

Close your eyes show me your face............I'm gonna piss on it

 
^no, everybody on this site is completely informed about all their political choices and all the views of every candidate and all the parties. (slight hint of sarcasm)

-Strode

Only in my sweetest dreams do my streams lack troubled waters, shallow pools full of shallow fools...
 
^ at first i thought u were serious till i saw the hint of sarcasm thing haha

Take me to your special place,

Close your eyes show me your face............I'm gonna piss on it

 
i will put it into a simple equation Bush re-elected= WE ARE FUCKED

no snow..

no girls..

no future..

Snowfall dictates the days activities if its snowing do it another day...
 
i will put it in a simple equasion you^= nobel prize for unabashed brilliance in your useage of absolute wisodom in posting... except for the exact opposite of what i just said.

Mercy's eyes are blue

When she places them in front of you

Nothing holds a roman candle to

The solemn warmth you feel inside

 
they teach you this, everyone on this whole fucking planet worries too much about everyone else

Fuck You
 
wow first off BUSH WAS NEVER ELECTED PRESIDENT... WE WILL DEFEAT HIM AGAIN !!!

no snow..

no girls..

no future..

Snowfall dictates the days activities if its snowing do it another day...
 
i quit with nthis shit man, its the american way. it was made from the people that quit europe(somebodys signature i think)

************************************************************

everybody that will be old enough to vote needs to realize that we need to get our dictator bush out of office, he is an ignorant fuck, and cant string together a sentence to save his life. he cant se that there are ways around war, and he needs to be gone

If people dont like what ive created, fuck em, because somebody else does-TANNER

 
I've heard enough vague anti-bush crap. He just one guy, and is far from holding full power of this country. Stop tossing out flavor of the month catch phrases and say something worthwhile.

Girl, you know its true.

'yup you're right' - strode420
 
No jarossamdb7 i didnt direct any comments towards you.

And i find it funny Alpinecowboy that you posted sayin you are tired of conservative negativity when thats all that has been posted on here for months from liberlas is mounds of nagative and anti-republican threads. Not to mention your politcal candiate has based his entire election hopes on a pessimistic and negative campaign. So i ask you in which party does the negativity lie?

Pete is currently sulking around Mt. Hood, shooting with Poor Boyz Productions and hitting on Kristi Leskinen. She hates guys, Pete lamented, so it’s not going good. Apparently Canada isn’t the only thing that’s tough for Pete to get into.

-kamikaze

 
^i should then clarify what i meant by negativity: specifically prejudice negativity (homophobia, racism, sexism, etc). not negative campaigning. my apologies for the confusion.

song of the week to download: 'let me love you down' by INOJ

Willard: 'How many people had I already killed? There was those six that I know about for sure. Close enough to blow their last breath in my face. But this time it was an American and an officer. That wasn't supposed to make any difference to me, but it did. Shit... charging a man with murder in this place was like handing out speeding tickets in the Indy 500. I took the mission. What the hell else was I gonna do?'
 
haha dudes its so fun to fuck around u guys gotta chill out alot about that who cares really... i mean as long as we can ski and party its all good.. i like bush honestly eventhough there are many things that i dont like about him i think that hes been doing a pretty good job with iraq and afghanistan

no snow..

no girls..

no future..

Snowfall dictates the days activities if its snowing do it another day...
 
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