Dear First Drop, RE: Design Contest - Issue with the fine print

Obsessedwski

Obsessedwski

Active member
Firstly, I would like to establish a few points, to make my position clear:

+ I am all for involving the market/community in designing product;

+ I am not advocating for financial compensation, and I believe the prizes are appropriate;

+ I have relevant experience with design contests, specifically related to the ski industry;

+ I am aware that there are legal issues related to copyright;

+ However I am also aware that you can run a contest with rules that are fair for all parties.

Now, my argument. Below is the fine print that First Drop provides on their contest page, on their website here http://www.firstdropouterwear.com/fd/contest.html

It states:

"Winners may also be considered for possible future design work for First Drop. First Drop has full legal rights to all designs (partial or whole) submitted as part of this contest. First Drop has the right to use any submission (any design that is used will receive an accessory prize pack) and all submissions are the property of First Drop."

This is an issue that is prevalent in many amateur/semi-pro caliber contests such as this one. The sponsor of the contest repeatedly outlines the fact that ALL SUBMISSIONS, whether selected as the winning entry or not, becomes the sole property of the sponsor — which implicitly states that the sponsor may do whatever it pleases with any design submitted without acknowledgement or appropriate compensation to the designer.

Now while in this case the sponsor does state that it will compensate the designer, the compensation is inadequate in comparison to what the winner is receiving. MEANING, that by submitting your design you have given the sponsor permission to use the design 2, 3, 4 years down the road with an "accessory pack" as compensation, regardless of whether or not your design was at par with, or higher quality/caliber than the submission that was selected as the winner.

Furthermore, the sponsor does not actually require retaining the rights to any design but the submission they intend to use for production. There is a very good precedent to this exact issue, in which a sponsor amended their fine print to ensure a fair agreement for all entrants. This contest, similarly to the one in question, did have questionable fine print to begin with. However, once the issue was noted and the arguments made, the sponsor decided to amend the fine print and proceeded with the contest a decision that not only ensured the legitimacy of the sponsor and attracted higher quality entries, but also set a precedent for this issue in that it proved contests may be run fairly and still produce the results the sponsor is looking for. The only rights retained by the sponsors were regarding the winning entries, and the rights of all unsuccessful submissions remained with the rightful owner, the designer.

TJ Schiller Ski Design Contest 2010: https://newschoolers.com/ns/forums/readthread/thread_id/490668/page/1/

There is absolutely NO reason, for First Drop to be operating their contest in this manner, and I highly recommend the sponsor amend the copyrights clause in their fine print. Doing so will not only produce higher quality entries from designers who care about their work, it will also demonstrate that the company does in fact care about fair treatment of the community they are marketing their products to.

Thank you for reading my argument, I look forward to your responses.

 
This is a very well thought out and written arguement, with which I agree wholeheartedly. I would not have read the fine print on my own, and I'm not an excellent graphic designer, but as a photographer I understand the dire importance of retaining one's intellectual and creative property rights until/unless adequate compensation is agreed upon.

Therefore, I will not be entering this contest until/unless this is amended.
 
My aim with this thread is not to simply have the rules changed for this contest alone.

Rather, through using this contest as a platform, I'd like to bring to light the mistakes our industry is making when it runs contests like this that repeatedly infringe on our rights to our work.

What you're suggesting is akin to saying I shouldn't vote if I don't agree with the electoral system. No, I'd rather voice my concerns, play a part in changing the system, then place my vote where it belongs.
 
Hear hear!

I highly doubt that any ski company would be so greasy to actually use other artwork later that does not win the contest, but if artists are hesitant to submit their work because of the fine print, then the print, obviously and for everyones benefit, must be changed.
 
solid thread

hopefully First Drop gets their shit together

even though I believe they are a legit company

that's a pretty big loop hole they could use later on to screw some kid over with.
 
Its a standard contract, I'm sure it was copy-pasted from some other legal document so that First Drop didnt have to spend weeks writing legal jargon. We do it for our company (after reading such things carefully) so that we dont have to have a full time legal department.

I'm sure it was never First Drops intention to have this in there and I'm sure they're going to change it as soon as they see this. I in no way speak for said company or NS, just trying to stave off NS's favorite games of "JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS" and "BURN THE HERETIC" and "CHUTES AND SHITSTORMS".
 
Well written argument. I agree that it is not fair but to be honest I don't believe that first drop is purposely trying
 
To weasel their way into a free design a few years down the road. I hope that they see this and it is ammended
 
To weasel their way into a free design a few years down the road. I hope that they see this and it is ammended
 
Totaly agree with this! ^^^

One of the reasons i havent entered, because its so easy to get used by brands as a upandcoming graphic designer. Which realy sux.

Hope FirstDrop rethink this, to show their legitimacy.
 
Hi everyone, thanks so much in your interest in our design contest that is (hopefully) about to start. We appreciate the feedback and level of involvement in such an early stage. Let us make a few things more clear:
- The author of this post didn't include all the text, it goes on to say that we will compensate any designer's who's design are used by giving them prototypes of their gear as well as accessory prize packs.
- Companies put on design contests for the exposure and to get people involved in their company, not to steal kid's designs for future use. We have a number of professional, paid designers already that we have been working with for the past year on a number of things that we will be coming out with for next year. We are doing this to get kids involved and give people a chance to design actual products that will at least be made into prototypes, and possibly go into full production.
- We just updated the site to explain things a little better, here is the text from the site:
"winners may also be considered for possible future design work for First Drop. First Drop has full legal rights to all designs (partial or whole) submitted as part of this contest. First Drop has the right to use any design that is submitted and all submissions are the property of First Drop. the designers will receive prototypes of the gear they design as well as accessory prize packs. this way, more designers (even those who don’t win) will have a chance at their work being used and people with less design experience have more chances at winning gear.."
Basically, we feel this is a great opportunity for people to become a part of our company and we would even consider entrants for actual paid design work in the future if the work is good enough.
It is our goal to help and involve the Newschoolers community so if this design contest is not something that is appreciated and welcomed by you guys as being something fun and positive, we would be happy to cancel it all together. We look forward to your feedback, which will help us decide whether or not to continue with this contest.
Thanks NS!
 
so kind of like when a newschooler spends his entire days photoshopping combos together for you in the first drop thread then builds your suit selector for you and he gets some gloves and a jacket? but this contest instead of saving you guys $5,000 might save you someones annual salary? genious.
 
anyways id like to see a ski with bamboo sidewalls, centermount (or just behind center) midfat, with butter zones, and tail rocker for landing switch.
 
Hey everyone,

Just wanted to chime in here, because I'm pretty stoked on this contest and wanted to give my two cents along with a bit of history, because we've seen these concerns before. I realize that design contests are always a bit tricky, as professional graphic designers understandably want to be deservingly paid for their work, but just like when we ran design contests for t-shirts and stickers in the past and TJ did the one for his pro model ski, Lesh isn't trying to rip anyone off here. He employs a professional graphic designer (just like we do), but since this website is all about including the community in as many things as possible, Lesh has personally told me that the reason he wanted to do this contest was to give you guys (who are the sole reason his brand began and continues to exist...which he understands and really appreciates) an opportunity to further include you in the brand's future by helping design something that you would be stoked to wear, and for all of you to give him some feedback via voting for your favorites on what you do or don't like and/or would or wouldn't want to see First Drop produce...and that's pretty damn cool in my opinion, and very much in the spirit of Newschoolers.

I do however see both sides of this argument, but if you're a professional graphic designer, then in reality, you probably should be making better use of your time than entering contests on Newschoolers (you don't see guys like Johnny Decesare producing edits for the Gatorade Free Flow Tour contest). This contest (just like our design contests in the past, along with TJ's) are more directed at the kids who want to have some fun designing something that they can potentially win and proudly wear for a long time, thus including the community in something cool. For everything else design-wise, just like we do, they'll use their professional graphic designer.

As for the conspiracy theory that Lesh is only doing this to be a dick, rip off the kids that support his brand and save money by not having a graphic designer (which would mean he'd have to fire his), just listen to how ridiculous that sounds, because trust me, the man is not concerned about money. And if you don't believe me, just ask him how much money he spent out of his own pocket this winter rectifying shipping issues to make his customers stoked. The figure would make your jaw drop...mine did.

 
Dear Lesh, I'm curious to how much money you spent out of your own pocket this winter rectifying shipping issues to make your customers stoked?
 
KEYWORDS "OWN POCKET" how much money came out of his personal bank account (not after the likely massive transfer from first drop's account) so the customers would buy more cheaply made gear because you have amazing customer service and you really listen to the customers.
 
and on that note, since this is like shooting ducks in a cage, i retire from FD hate, but will keep this signature as a token of my past.
 
Thank you for the timely response.

Please understand that I was in no way implying that First Drop or Mr. Lesh would "scam" designers in any way and that was not my intention in creating this thread. I have been an NS member for a while now and I am aware that First Drop is a legitimate company that would be very unlikely to create such an issue down the road.

As Ginko mentioned above, many companies simply re-use legal text from other sources, and so may not be aware of the implications specific wording have on the operation of their contests. It is my hope that through discussions like these companies will become more aware of this issue that we as designers, photographers, cinematographers and the like face every day.

I appreciate your initiative in giving back to the skiing and Newschoolers community and wish you and your company all the best in your efforts.
 
Thanks so much for your support and involvement in the ski community.
First Drop was born from Newschoolers, and we really value the opinions of such core skiers like yourselves. This contest is really just one way we hope to continue to involve and work with the community to create the kinds of products we all want to see and to create an industry we all can be proud of. Skiing has come a LONG way since all of us at First Drop have been around, and it's great to see!
We look forward to seeing everyone's submissions and working together on some great products!
-FD
 
I'd just like to point out the value that a well written thread on NS can attain, as well as a well written response. It's a fantastic change of pace to see civilized, informed discussion from both parties, and it helps quell some of the cynicism that I've accumulated in the last few months regarding this website as a whole.
Here's to more intelligent discussion on NS, raise your glasses.
 
lol_wut1.jpg
 
hahahahaha, just kidding. i couldn't help myself.

i completely agree with you. this is the first "intelligent" thread since the armada v. rossi debacle.
 
argghhh too much reading!!! i got about a quarter of the way thru schmucks post before i feinted and my head hit the keyboard, causing severe head trauma. from now on, law school students are forbidden from writing posts!!!!!!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top