Cyber Bullying-Suicidal, related to Myspace thread

dafromasta

Member
I membered this reading the Myspace thread. It was in VT that this man Mr.halligan came and talked to our school. His son committed suicide from cyber bullying and now he goes around and makes speeches to schools. Pretty heavy shit, the guys in so much pain. Heres the story...

If We Only Knew, If He Only Told Us



October 7, 2003 will always be the day that divides my life. Before

that day my son Ryan was alive. A sweet, gentle and lanky thirteen year

old fumbling his way through early adolescence and trying to establish

his place in the often confusing and difficult social world of middle

school. After that day my son would be gone forever, a death by

suicide. Some would call it bullycide or even cyber bullycide. I just

call it a huge hole in my heart that will never heal.



Our son Ryan was a sweet, gentle and very sensitive soul. He was born

in Poughkeepsie , NY just a week before Christmas. That Christmas, Ryan

was the best present of all. As he grew, his affectionate way made it

irresistible to hug him and feel him hug you back. He had the magic

ability to bring a smile to anyone that looked his way. As he grew, he

developed a wonderful sense of humor too. And when we moved into new

neighborhoods twice during his life, kids quickly gravitated to his

warmth and friendliness.

But there were early concerns

with Ryan’s speech, language and motor skills development as he neared

kindergarten. Ryan received special education services from pre-school

through the fourth grade. We will always be grateful for the entire

staff at Hiawatha Elementary School in Essex Junction for being so

wonderful and caring for our son. The special education team there fell

in love with him and his drive to do his best every day. By the time he

reached the fifth grade, he was assessed to be on grade and no longer

needing special education services. But as he became older, he also

became more aware that he was not as academically strong as most of his

classmates. This began to bother him deeply as he headed into middle

school. He had to work much harder at homework, re-reading assignments

several times to comprehend the material. He was hard on himself, no

matter how much we tried to lessen the academic pressure and focus his

awareness of his other strengths.

I often told Ryan

that there are all kinds of intelligence, for instance: academic,

music, physical and social intelligence. I always felt his strength was

social intelligence- that his very warm, sweet, caring and sensitive

personality would take him far in life because people liked being with

him. One of the best compliments we ever received about Ryan was from a

parent that said they loved having him over and wanting his sweetness

to rub off onto their child.

It was during the fifth

grade that we first began to encounter the bullying problem. A certain

kid and his friends picked up on Ryan’s academic weaknesses and his

poor physical coordination. But since he was not being physically

bullied by these boys, only by words, we advised him to just ignore

them, walk away and remember that he had good friends to count on. We

even went so far as to get him a therapist to further help him develop

coping skills and to boost his self-esteem during this school year. By

the end of fifth grade he seemed fine and so, based on the therapist’s

advice, we stopped the sessions.

Ryan’s middle school,

Albert D. Lawton (ADL) in Essex Junction, Vermont had grades 6 through

8 in the same building. It was a bit of a scary transition for Ryan

coming in as a very young 6 th grader into a building with some pretty

older looking 8 th graders lurking through the hallways. As with his

early school years, Ryan still struggled to make average grades. School

still was not easy for him and he often brought up the concern of being

put back in “sped” (special ed.)

Sure enough, the

bullying problem resurfaced on and off during his first middle school

year, but never to a point that gave us great concern. Again, we had

the conventional adult belief that this was just kids being kids, a

part of growing up ... that encountering mean kids in middle school was

just inevitable. But the situation got much worse for him during the

7th grade.

In December 2002, the bullying problem

surfaced again to a significant level. There was an evening that month

when he just had a melt down … a very tearful session at the kitchen

table. We thought 7th grade was going fine but discovered he was

bottling up a lot of bad experiences during the first few months.

Again, it was the same kid and his friends that bullied him on and off

since the 5th grade. They were tormenting him again and he said he

hated going to school, that he never wanted to go back there. He asked

that night if we could move or home school him.

I was

torn between wanting to be his bodyguard all day and feeling he needed

to (again) learn how to manage the situation as a part of growing up.

We sat at the kitchen table discussing our options that evening. We

explained that moving in the middle of the winter was not a good time

and home schooling was not an option because Mom worked part-time. I

said, “That’s it Ryan. I had enough. Let’s take it to the principal and

have him put a stop to it once and for all.” To that, Ryan exclaimed,

“No dad, please don’t do that. They will only make it worse. I see it

happen all the time.” Instead Ryan asked that we help him learn how to

fight so he can “beat the heck" out of this kid if he or his 8th grade

friends tried to jump Ryan.

How I wish I could now

turn back the clock. I wish we instead looked into why Ryan did not

trust his school administration to address the problem in the first

place. But at that moment in time, I immediately thought of the movie

“The Karate Kid” and said so to Ryan. We laughed and agreed that was

exactly what was needed for this situation. But instead of karate, Ryan

was much more interested in Billy Blank’s Taebo Kick Boxing program

which often aired as a 30 minute commercial in this time frame. He

asked that we get him this program along with the punching bag and

boxing gloves for Christmas.

After a short discussion

with Kelly, we bought Ryan the “Taebo” kick boxing training kit for

Christmas that year. All through the month of January and into

February, Ryan and I got down to business. After dinner every evening

we did this exercise program together. These are some of my favorite

memories of time spent with Ryan. We talked about a lot of things

during these workouts including strategies in dealing with the bully

and his friends. I was quite proud of him, seeing his self confidence

build. It truly felt like the "Karate Kid" movie, getting him ready for

the big match. But I reminded Ryan that he was never to start a fight

with this kid, but he certainly had my permission to “whale on him” the

moment he laid a hand on Ryan.

Sure enough, we got a

call from the assistant principal after a school day in February

2003. He just broke up a fight between Ryan and the bully at the nearby

Maple Street Park in our village. He said Ryan was ok but wanted us to

be aware. We were very grateful for his intervention. When we found

Ryan walking home, he was both scared and elated. He was shaking but

said he got a few good punches in and felt good he was able to stick up

to the bully. He said, “I got a few good punches in before Mr. Emory

got there. That kid probably won’t mess with me anymore.” We were all

feeling pretty relieved that day for Ryan; for being able to stand his

ground and seemingly make it through a typical teenage rite of passage.

As the months followed, he seemed to be doing great. He

was still struggling academically, but that was always the case for

Ryan since kindergarten. He acted out like a typical middle school age

kid – moody at times but also very sweet and funny most of the

time. The "normal" ups and downs were what we observed. And we were

always there for him, always reminding him how much we loved him. For

the rest of 7th grade, I kept checking in with Ryan and asking him if

that kid was still bothering him. His answer was always the same …

that since that fight, the bully had left him alone. I often thought to

myself, “This plan worked perfectly!”

One day Ryan’s

answer surprised us. He said he was now friends with the kid. We were

not happy with this news. We warned him to watch his back since this

kid was his nemesis for so long. We discouraged the friendship but

decided to back off, feeling he was of age to make decisions like this

and potentially have to learn from a misjudgment. How I wish we instead

ended the so called friendship right from the start.



Ryan’s young teen life included swimming, camping, skateboarding,

biking, snowboarding, playing computer games and instant messaging. A

typical array of “healthy” and “normal” teen activities … or so it

seemed. My son loved being on-line, staying connected with his friends

after the school day and throughout the summer. But during the summer

of 2003, a greater deal of time was spent on-line, mainly instant

messaging. I was concerned and felt compelled to remind him of our

internet safety rules.

  • No IMing/chatting with strangers
  • No giving any personal information (name/address/phone) to strangers
  • No sending pictures to strangers
  • No secret passwords



Our last rule was a safety one. I told my two older children that they

had to use the password I gave them for any accounts they signed up. I

promised I would not read personal messages or spy on them but, “God

forbid you don’t follow the first few rules and you just disappear one

day, I will want instant access to all of your activities on-line.”

Never in a million years did I imagine this rule would someday end up

becoming the key to unlocking the mystery of why my son took his own

life.

A few days after his funeral I logged on to his

AOL IM account because that was the one place he spent most of his time

during the last few months. I logged on to see if there were any clues

to his final action. It was in that safe world of being somewhat

anonymous that several of his classmates told me of the bullying and

cyber bullying that took place during the months that led up to his

suicide. The boy that had bullied him since 5 th grade and briefly

befriended Ryan after the brawl was the main culprit. My son the

comedian told his new friend something embarrassing and funny that

happened once and the friend (bully) ran with the new information that

Ryan had something done to him and therefore Ryan must be gay. The

rumor and taunting continued beyond that school day … well into the

night and during the summer of 2003. During the summer, my son

approached a pretty “popular” girl from his school on-line and worked

on establishing a relationship with her; I’m sure as a surefire way to

squash the “gay” rumor before everyone returned to school in the fall.



When the 8 th grade school year started up again, Ryan approached his

new girlfriend in person. I’m sure he was never prepared to handle what

happened next. In front of her friends she told him he was just a loser

and that she did not want anything to do with him. She said she was

only joking on-line. He found out that her friends and her thought it

would be funny to make him think she liked him and to get him to say a

lot of personal, embarrassing stuff. She copied and pasted there

private IM exchanges into ones with her friends. They all had a good

laugh at Ryan’s expense.

Now certainly my son was not

the first boy in history to be bullied and have his heart crushed by a

pretty girl’s rejection. But when I discovered a folder filled with IM

exchanges throughout the summer and further interviewed his classmates,

I realized that technology was being utilized as weapons far more

effective and reaching then the simple ones we had as kids. Passing

handwritten notes or a "slam" book has since been replaced with on-line

tools such as IM, Websites, Blogs, cell phones, etc. The list keeps

growing with the invention of every new hi-tech communication gadget.



It’s one thing to be bullied and humiliated in front of a few kids.

It’s one thing to feel rejection and have your heart crushed by a girl.

But it has to be a totally different experience then a generation ago

when these hurts and humiliation are now witnessed by a far larger,

online adolescent audience. I believe my son would have survived these

incidents of bullying and humiliation if they took place before

computers and the internet. But I believe there are few of us that that

would have had the resiliency and stamina to sustain such a nuclear

level attack on our feelings and reputation as a young teen in the

midst of rapid physical and emotional changes and raging hormones. I

believe bullying through technology has the effect of accelerating and

amplifying the hurt to levels that will probably result in a rise in

teen suicide rates. Recent statistics indicate that indeed teen suicide

is on the rise again after many years of declining rates.



I want to be very clear. I don’t blame Ryan’s suicide on one single

person or one single event. In the end, Ryan was suffering from

depression. This is a form of mental illness that is brought on by

biological and/or environmental factors. In Ryan's case, I feel it was

the "pile on effect" of the environmental issues mentioned above that

stemmed from his middle school life. Tragically, teenage depression

often goes undetected against the backdrop of typical teen angst. And

since most of us have never received basic education in the signs and

prevention of teenage suicide at any point in our lives, young people

suffering from depression are at greater risk.

We

have no doubt that bullying and cyber bullying were significant

environmental factors that triggered Ryan’s depression. In the final

analysis, we feel strongly that Ryan's middle school was a toxic

environment, like so many other middle schools across the country for

so many young people. For too long, we have let kids and adults bully

others as a right of passage into adulthood inside a school

building. We place accountable for this tragedy, first and foremost, on

ourselves as his parents... but also on Ryan’s school administration,

staff and the young people involved. As parents, we failed to hold the

school accountable to maintain an emotionally safe environment for our

son while he was alive. But accountability and responsibility should be

shared by all involved - parents, bullies, bystanders, teachers and

school administrators ... basically the whole system.



Something had to happen in response to this tragedy. It had to be

something substantial and sustained, not just a short lived sympathetic

response. We decided to take all this intense pain and channel it into

productive areas to help other young people avoid the same fate as our

son. You’ll learn on the other pages about the bully prevention law we

spearheaded in Vermont that holds schools much more accountable in

preventing and responding to the issue. We also worked closely with I-Safe America

to raise awareness about cyber bullying and the severe emotional impact

it can have on a young person. We've done several national and local

news media interviews to spread this story. And we continue to

collaborate with various suicide prevention groups to drive into our

Vermont schools more education about depression and suicide prevention

among middle school and high school students.

Nothing

can ever bring back our Ryan. Nothing will ever heal our broken

hearts. But we hope by sharing the personal details of our tremendous

loss, another family will have been spared a lifelong sentence to this

kind of pain.

Vibs to his family, you can visit the site athttp://www.ryanpatrickhalligan.org/index.htm
 
that's horrible, try to take stories like these to heart, and not just this case ended in a suicide. It's easy to make someone miserable, but it's even easier to flash the awkward kid a smile and a conversation. don't hesitate, cuz everyone can make a difference
 
Ya that's pretty terrible. I try and think back to when IM'ing was first getting big if stuff like this was going on, but i don't recall it on the levels that people talk about these days. It seems like every other kid you hear of is trashing talking everyone they can, it really needs to be stopped. As cheesy as those commercials are on TV, if you won't say it to their face, don't say it online.
 
i'm sorry, but the whole concept of killing yourself because of what someone said on the interwebs is almost laughable. it's sad as hell that these people are dead and their families so hurt, but come on! nothing anyone can say to you online is worth killing yourself over!
 
how did he take his life??.. I can't imagine doing something to myself no matter how depressed I was . I wouldn't have the guts to do it
 
i know your just trying to be an asshole on purpose so everyone notices you but come on now, you never had your heart broken by a girl before in middle school/early high school? that plus a gay rumor and everyone thinking your gay, thats pretty tough to handle. you know how hard kids are on eachother and its so easy to talk shit to people online and joke around about liking you. i can recall times in middle school when people played jokes on eachother and the shit end of the deal was always the loser kid everyone picked on. this shits happens everyday cause middle school kids are retarded and immature haha. but combine that with how america is today and "depression" that he suffered from. boom. suicide, one message that really gets across cause the others didn't.
 
yeah mr. halligan came to my school also, it was so sad...hes a super nice guy too. one kid who goes to my school was his best friend also...a few people i know knew ryan, its so sad how cruel kids can be.
 
kids werent just making fun of him online, it was kids from his school dude, they did it in person also...just mostly online, just cause they are online doesnt mean its not real kids that he sees everyday. its crazy that he lived just the next down over from me, and was in the same grade as me, but i never have seen any kids being that mean to someone, sure saw girls fake dating boys to pick on them but never to the extreme that those kids took it.
 
Its true, Middle school is tough to handle, but everyone goes through that sort of shit on a daily basis. Its happened to me, to you, your friends, there's no way to avoid it. But to kill yourself over silly rumors? Come on. No offense to the dad, but his kid was not suffering from depression. He was suffering from an inability to express himself, and an unwillingness to cope with his problems. Just because he was a little slow has nothing to do with it. I feel for the parents, and the kids at school (they have to live with the fact that they think they killed a kid), but just because a girl doesn't like you and a bunch of people think you're gay does not constitute suicide in your mind. The issue isn't even cyber bullying, in contrast to what the speaker thinks, its bullying in general, and a definition of middle school life.
 
yeah but he was also suffering from depression. its not like he could help from feeling sad. its a chemical imbalance. you might think that you could shrug that shit off, and you probably can, but throw depression into the mix of getting publicly humiliated...
 
consider what it would be like to have people just make fun of you and embarrass the hell out of you day after day after day though. and then consider what it must be like to be miserable by the time you leave school only to have people continue to do it to you all night online. it's non stop, and after years and years of that...that really has to affect you.

super unfortunate, and it's so sad to hear stories like that
 
man, if i was gonna kill myself id atleast take the faggots with me.. but im not gonna so thats okay.

in grade 7 i got a girl hospitalized 4 times(and after went out with her), in grade 8 i was almost best friends with her, till then i realized nobody like her and she was annoying as fuck and trying to seek attention 24/7 shes a fucking moron.

BUT are half the people on this planet retarted, last year to be emo it was the "cool" kid fad just like this year its heavy into drugs and preppy. people that try to fit in change evvvery year just like the dumb bitch i stated above^^
 
your just one major asshole all around. what a dirtbag, kill people while you take your own life? how could you say that?

you hospitalized a girl? how? hit her too hard while you tried to force her to make out with you? you stopped hanging out with her because no one liked her? your a fucking asshole man wtf? and then your worrying about what the cool thing to do is. wtf??? dirtbag.
 
ok, i'm not trying to be an asshole, i do know what it's like to have people make fun of you constantly, i hated high school, i completely understand clinical depression, and i wasn't hating on people or making fun of anyone. my point was simply what i said, no more, no less- there's nothing anyone can say over the internet that you should kill yourself over. i'm not judging these people, i'm just saying it, that's it. don't kill yourself because of what someone says to you online... or anywhere, for that matter.

christ, you people need to take a little more time to jump to conclusions. just because i say that there's nothing worth killing yourself over doesn't mean that i'm sitting here calling those people losers or something- i'm just plain and simply saying "don't kill yourself". i would have thought that you all would have appreciated that and agreed with it.

soooooo, someone want to explain to me how i'm being an asshole by telling people not to kill themselves? honestly, i've sat on my bed with a loaded .45 in my mouth and the only thing that kept me from pulling the trigger was knowing my younger brother would find my body. i fully understand depression, i know what it's like to have people bearing down on you all the time talking shit and telling you that you're worthless- i get that, i understand that, it almost killed me. but sometimes it takes something as simple as someone reminding you that nothing is worth killing yourself over- nothing is worth destroying your own life- to help you snap out of it and get your head above water. all i said was that there's nothing worth killing yourself over, so stop being so fucking sensitive- i was supporting what you've been saying.

holy SHIT, sometimes NS is fucking stupid...
 
i didnt read all of it yet cause I just gotta say this. Yeah, Poughkeepsie. My area there. Now back to reading the rest of it
 
btw, i maintain that the idea of killing yourself over what someone said online is laughable... after dealing with what i've been through, i just can't fathom giving something someone said online enough emotion and energy to have it effect me. if someone wants to say something to me and have it actually mean something to me, they can say it to me in person... then it *might* have some kind of impact on me.

and before people go and get pissed about THAT...

people need to grow thicker skins. they need to learn that the world isn't nice, people are going to be flat-out mean to them, use them, walk on them... just be mean to them in any way you can imagine. it's just going to happen, that's how the world works. there are shitty people out there who are just going to treat you like ass. that being said, you don't have to pay attention to those people, you don't have to let them affect your life. when you're on a computer you have all kinds of options for ignoring people. you can block people on instant messenger, facebook, and i assume fagspace (i don't have one), or you can just close a window. i understand depression and how that can influence your self-esteem, but you have to realize you're living your life for yourself- not to please other people- so the only opinion that should really matter to you is your own.

go ahead and keep getting your panties in a bunch and tell me i'm such an ignorant asshole and i can't possibly understand how horrible it is for these kids. whatever. i've been to years of therapy, held a gun to my head, i get it. killing yourself is a choice that confused me as soon as i seriously considered it and it still does. don't kill yourself people- just when everything is looking like shit and you can't possibly see a way life can ever get better, things take a turn for the better and you'll be fine. and then you'll hopefully see what a waste it would have been had you actually done it.
 
Alright, now for a serious response.

Very sad story here and I know exactly where the kid is coming from. I didnt find suicide the best option though because once you dont go through with it and everyone knows, sure they are sorry for you but its kinda embarrassing afterward. But it doesnt solve everything. The occasional making fun of is okay but bullying isnt cool
 
that is the longest thread iv ever clicked on and actually read it all

thats such a sad story...kinda makes you think twice before you call someone a noob on NS...
 
The only difference between him and you was that he was so verbally abused that he was able to take his own life. That's really messed up though man, glad to see you didn't pull the trigger.
 
that shits fucked up, i see your point though i agree that theres no reason to kill yourself over some words. I really dont think theres any reason to kill yourself at all, unless your in so much physical pain from some killing disease or something. I just dont know about some kids, not to be a dick in any sense of the word, im honestly not trying to be mean, but kids that kill themselves are cowards. They kill themselves to get a quick out in life and their family and friends have to pay for their cowardness. Ive seen familys been destroyed by the act of one kid trying to get out of life. shits fucked up soooo fucked up
 
exactly what i'm saying- i completely understand how depression can make you act. what i CAN'T understand is how something someone says over the internet can bother you to such a degree that you'd kill yourself. people don't look past their present situation, they don't keep in mind that someday soon their situation in life is going to change, they'll be somewhere else with different people, and they'll accomplish something awesome with their life. with that knowledge, i can't even take a fucking nap, let alone fathom killing myself. there's too much in life to miss out on by closing your eyes for a second, so why would you want to die?

bottom line- just don't fucking kill yourself. hell, worst comes to worst, at least you know you'll get to see another powder day and i'd consider that something worth living for.
 
I wonder what that bitch that pretended she liked him feels like now. That was a real dick move....at least her life is probably ruined for doing it though.
 
she's karma-fucked for sure.

I never made fun of anyone who couldn't take it in school. like the only kids I would make fun of were annoying and didn't have any self-esteem problems whatsoever. this kid who rode my bus got made fun of a lot, his locker was between me and one of my best friends in 8th grade. admittedly we made fun of him occassionally, but only because he was such an asshole.

in high school eventually it became known that he was autistic, and he started being put in special ed classes. I felt really bad for him, and I always hated the kids who actually sought him out to make fun of him in middle school.

I think sometimes its important to let students know about a kid's disabilities. if people had known he had autism and wasn't just a complete weirdo/social retard, they probably wouldn't have made fun of him, but no one knew.
 
i defiantly know that people in this world are mean. i consider myself farther down to earth then a lot of other people in the fucking world. i like in new york city and i cant stand some of those liberal vegatarian tree hugging losers that i see around. one time underground waiting for a train, this little black kid like spit and the mom tapped the back of his head and said "don't do that again or you cant watch tv tonight" or something like that, not a big deal right? this liberal emo lesbian looking bitch comes out of no where screaming "omg you just hit your kid and threatened him, you shouldn't be allowed to have children!" i was in total misbelief on how somebody can just stick there nose in someones business like that. how is that a way to live? thinking everyone is so mean and the world isn't fair? get the fuck overselves. live your life the way you want and mind your fucking business. this is nyc, this black lady could of done God knows what to this lady but just walks away. i know i just got really off track in this post but i realize that people are stupid and the world isn't fair. kids these days are too worried about everything because thats the way their stupid liberal parents are. thats not always the case, some kids just turn out emo or a pussy for whatever reason. however, everything is too safe now a days. people are so scared. you cant watch the news without hearing about 10 new hidden dangers and how our schools are so bad and this isn't safe, that isn't safe, don't use that, it has hydrocommacalide (made up) in it, blah blah blah. recall this recall that. 1 in every million of these toys have .000001 g of lead in it OMG ITS GOING TO KILL US ALL!!!! get overselves, pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. you cant even be mean to anyone anymore. not that you should be mean to anyone but when i was younger, the younger kids looked up to older kids and were scared of them. now these little pricks think they're the fucking shit. no one has respect for anyone anymore. and thats my word.

whats going to kill this world is fear. and not the hidden dangers in your sons playground or the chemicals they found in rotten cow meat in the supermarket. the fear of global warming is going to have everyone shitting their pants so bad that we're all going to die. why can't we all just smoke weed in peace?

this is another stoner message brought to you by benedetto. thanks for reading
 
Wow stories like that make you think. Sometimes I will try to reach out to kids who are quiet or weird and usually they think I am messing with them when I'm not.
 
because the older people around them protect them from everything in the outside world. i bet they wash their hands 13 times a day too
 
i feel so bad for that kid, especially because he was slower. he actually kinda reminds me of my older cousin who is slower, he's the nicest kid you could meet, but kids made fun of him in highschool. but i feel worse for his parents, not trying to be an asshole, but the kid took the fucking pussy way out. no matter how bad things are i would never kill myself, not for me, but just how my friends and family would react to that kinda shit. his family will never be the same, and that's horrible. i make fun of kids in highschool, who doesn't, but i make fun of kids who can take it or my friends and shit never kids who have problems and shit. the kids that picked on him have to live with that forever, i'm glad for them. but really, getting cyber bullied is fucking retarded. all the kid had to do was not use the fucking computer or block people, so i hate to say it but he almost asked for them to make fun of him. still, i feel bad for his family and friends that have to live with the fact they might have been able to do something. and that dad probably feels soooo shitty cause like from that article he thinks he coulda prevented it, doubt he could of but that's how he feels...idk i just hate how kids commit suicide, it's so fucking pussy like to take the easy way out and leave everyone else with the burden you did that to yourself...
 
He came to my school too. He is so strong to be able to stand up infront of a whole highschool and talk about this. I have so much respect for him.
 
wow, something i never thought about...if i live one town over from the kid...and i know a lot of people from that town...including several girls...who would be considered "popular" i wonder if...woah. i never thought i might know some of the kids mr. halligan talked to us about.
 
hahahaha, fucking sierras so annoying, "omg, my boyfriend who no one has ever met and i wont introduce to my friends killed himself, and there was nothing about it in the newspaper or anything" and yeah that is the fads at balmoral shane
 
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