shoenice22
Member
Everybody knows that we need to stop using oil. But how do you suggest we find a substitute for oil and foster a nation wide change anytime soon?
*CONTRAVERSIAL THREAD WARNING* OIL spill
- Thread starter MatRich
- Start date
WorthDaMoney
Active member
no one will give a shit about any of this once north and south korea start WW3.
but on the serious hand, BP should have bought the stupid shut off valve. also, they should be punished accordingly to their income, not just some small 400 million dollar fine. while agreeing with everyone in this thread, hopefully something is learned from this incident, because it is not only going to be affecting the surrounding coastal area, but it will eventually reach the east coast of canada where our fishing industry is just beginning to recuperate
but on the serious hand, BP should have bought the stupid shut off valve. also, they should be punished accordingly to their income, not just some small 400 million dollar fine. while agreeing with everyone in this thread, hopefully something is learned from this incident, because it is not only going to be affecting the surrounding coastal area, but it will eventually reach the east coast of canada where our fishing industry is just beginning to recuperate
sim
Active member
I agree with you for the most part. A few things:
Oil is not our most efficient source of energy, unless you are purely talking monetarily, and even then I believe that title would go to coal. But yeah, coal doesnt go into a gas tank too well...
Secondly, Germany's feed-in tarrifs program (subsidy in a sense) has greatly improved the cost effectiveness of solar, and with continued support may soon allow solar to be competitive (yes, the program was also abused.) It will still take some time.
There is also a difference between peak oil and peak conventional oil... the former, and it becoming an issue is not conclusive, but the latter... Let me just remind you why this thread is here in the first place- drilling in a 1500 m deep part of the gulf. Or, in Canada's case and your new number one imported source of oil, specifically the Athabasca Oil sands, stripping 10 - 20 m of soil to access bitumen to produce oil at $35-60 a barrel. Point being, the oil companies do know conventional oil has peaked and that is why they are pursuing capital intensive and risky projects.
Now lastly, and no one can give this number with surety, let's say there are about 2 trillion barrels of proven reserve still left, be it conventional or not. Search this number a bit and I think I'm not too far off. Anyway, the world consumes about 80 billion barrels a day. This is fairly accurate - probably undercutting it a bit. Making some assumptions, like this rate of consumption holding steady, no further reserves are discovered/too hard to extract and some very basic math... 2*10^12/80*10^6 gives 25000 days or about 70 years.
Oil is not our most efficient source of energy, unless you are purely talking monetarily, and even then I believe that title would go to coal. But yeah, coal doesnt go into a gas tank too well...
Secondly, Germany's feed-in tarrifs program (subsidy in a sense) has greatly improved the cost effectiveness of solar, and with continued support may soon allow solar to be competitive (yes, the program was also abused.) It will still take some time.
There is also a difference between peak oil and peak conventional oil... the former, and it becoming an issue is not conclusive, but the latter... Let me just remind you why this thread is here in the first place- drilling in a 1500 m deep part of the gulf. Or, in Canada's case and your new number one imported source of oil, specifically the Athabasca Oil sands, stripping 10 - 20 m of soil to access bitumen to produce oil at $35-60 a barrel. Point being, the oil companies do know conventional oil has peaked and that is why they are pursuing capital intensive and risky projects.
Now lastly, and no one can give this number with surety, let's say there are about 2 trillion barrels of proven reserve still left, be it conventional or not. Search this number a bit and I think I'm not too far off. Anyway, the world consumes about 80 billion barrels a day. This is fairly accurate - probably undercutting it a bit. Making some assumptions, like this rate of consumption holding steady, no further reserves are discovered/too hard to extract and some very basic math... 2*10^12/80*10^6 gives 25000 days or about 70 years.
alpine_pow
Member
lolwut?
popNfresh44
Active member
wind, water and sun gives electricity
hemp oil fuels automobiles
industrial hemp requires very little resources to grow...and it is completely renewable. use the oil for fuel and plastics, the fibre for paper, clothing, anything really...this plant is straight up one of the best material resources on the planet but it is hardly used. Hell, Henry Ford made a fucking car out of hemp! Gasoline wasn't even supposed to be a primary auto fuel! http://www.rense.com/general67/FORD.HTM
If it wasn't made illegal in the first place, America could be in an entirely different state of being right now.
we will still need crude oil for many things but it could play a much, much lesser role.
hemp oil fuels automobiles
industrial hemp requires very little resources to grow...and it is completely renewable. use the oil for fuel and plastics, the fibre for paper, clothing, anything really...this plant is straight up one of the best material resources on the planet but it is hardly used. Hell, Henry Ford made a fucking car out of hemp! Gasoline wasn't even supposed to be a primary auto fuel! http://www.rense.com/general67/FORD.HTM
If it wasn't made illegal in the first place, America could be in an entirely different state of being right now.
we will still need crude oil for many things but it could play a much, much lesser role.
ThaLorax
Active member
Would I make a bold statement like that if I hadn't studied alternative energy sources before?
Did I suggest anywhere in my post that we would immediately benefit from pouring money into alternative sources of energy? You are right, oil is, in fact, the "now" fuel along with coal. However, any shift in paradigm, whether social or structural, takes time to become effective and useful. There would definitely be a lag between the new technologies and the money put into them but at some point, we are going to have to change our infrastructure. It's our choice, whether that hit will be a painful one or a beneficial one. I'm not going to get into that any more right now but I wanted to address that point of yours.
Yes, hemp oil. I'm not going to explain to you how I would power an entire city on hemp oil because that was not the intention of my mentioning hemp. I would never power an entire city on hemp, I would power it on solar, geothermal, wind, and hydro power. Hemp oil was just an example off the top of my head of a product that could be used in place of petroleum in many every day items. Growing hemp does not cause any ecological damage. In fact, it can be grown in arrid, previously overfarmed/destroyed land and used to rejeuvinate the soil. Then, the previous owner of that land can not only sell that hemp but he'll have new land to plant crops. This is just one example of many of how hemp use would be quite the opposite of causing unsustainable environmental and economic effects.
I really don't want to get into explaining all the different things that hemp can be used for since it would take forever and you would lose interest. Instead, I'll post this ADHD convenient picture of many of the hemp plant's uses (click it for better quality):
The whole problem with the argument for oil is that it emphasizes thinking in the "now" without thinking about the future (aside from how much oil is left). That goes against the very definition of sustainability, "Development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs."
Did I suggest anywhere in my post that we would immediately benefit from pouring money into alternative sources of energy? You are right, oil is, in fact, the "now" fuel along with coal. However, any shift in paradigm, whether social or structural, takes time to become effective and useful. There would definitely be a lag between the new technologies and the money put into them but at some point, we are going to have to change our infrastructure. It's our choice, whether that hit will be a painful one or a beneficial one. I'm not going to get into that any more right now but I wanted to address that point of yours.
Yes, hemp oil. I'm not going to explain to you how I would power an entire city on hemp oil because that was not the intention of my mentioning hemp. I would never power an entire city on hemp, I would power it on solar, geothermal, wind, and hydro power. Hemp oil was just an example off the top of my head of a product that could be used in place of petroleum in many every day items. Growing hemp does not cause any ecological damage. In fact, it can be grown in arrid, previously overfarmed/destroyed land and used to rejeuvinate the soil. Then, the previous owner of that land can not only sell that hemp but he'll have new land to plant crops. This is just one example of many of how hemp use would be quite the opposite of causing unsustainable environmental and economic effects.
I really don't want to get into explaining all the different things that hemp can be used for since it would take forever and you would lose interest. Instead, I'll post this ADHD convenient picture of many of the hemp plant's uses (click it for better quality):
The whole problem with the argument for oil is that it emphasizes thinking in the "now" without thinking about the future (aside from how much oil is left). That goes against the very definition of sustainability, "Development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs."
Profpimpcain
Member
Oil companies today = the cigarette companies of the 50's. brown and Williamson anyone?
T.L.
Active member
After this is all over with I'm all for implementing new regulations and safety procedures on offshore oil but you people should really think about what you're really saying before you strut around advocating offshore drilling to be banned. If there were oil to be had on land we would be getting at it. Period. (minus alaska. Whole other reason behind that and a whole other conversation.)
Profpimpcain
Member
Oh, I'm so sorry for not spelling it out for you, next time I will try much. harder to simplify
andrew.ski
Member
Not Factual. Kindly Fuck off sir.
skihillraod
Active member
what? how is this natural?
H8CH
Active member
You know what has really P*88ed me off throughout this, and one thing I never really realized about Americans, but have come to really hate? Is the ridiculous Hypocrisy you all show…. I find it frankly disgusting, and as a country – you and your media and your government should be ashamed of yourselves.
Everyone is on the media disaster hype train, hating oil – making hugely outlandish statements….. banning this and that, blaming this company and that company… and why? Why is it like that? Because this happened in the US, and why did it even happen in the USA in the first place? Because your capitalist culture breeds greed and corruption and wild abandon for regulation and control. Bp has the best safety record of any major oil company OUTSIDE of the USA…. So you tell me where the weak link there is?
This is NOTHING compared to the worst industrial disasters of all time…. Nothing….
Did you know, that in Nigeria, more oil then has been spilt in the gulf is spilt EVERY year due to cr*p like this happening… EVERY year… do you know where 40% of America’s oil comes from? That’s right Nigeria…. And you know the worst offender for this out there? Exxon…. But – it didn’t happen on Good Ol USA’s shores did it – so you all don’t give a f**k….. yet everyone jumping on the “I’m an environmentalist” bandwagon… really… come on, you are the biggest consumers of oil on the planet – by a long stretch, you don’t have a clue – it’s just because the media is telling you you’re coastlines are ruined forever and this and that… when your biggest companies are responsible for some of the worst industrial disasters of all time…
Including this little gem….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster
And you know the worst thing – when a gallon of Gas in this “great” country hits $12 a gallon, there will be riots – uprisings… disgust … see how many people care about the environment then eh… no your media will start another disaster hype train, and everyone of you will have bought your tickets and be on it for the ride…. People really really need to get their facts straight here before going on TV and writing things in the press… this is a catastrophic accident, but it will be fixed soon – when I say soon, I mean A LOT sooner then your country’s regulatory systems and corrupt government…. I mean, who really runs America… is it politicians or is it a combination of the following, Oil Companies, Health Insurance Companies, Pharmaceutical companies…? Lobbyist’s control this country….
You make your bed with your Huge V8 trucks and your 8MPGs and your huge energy consumption and desire for all things new and plastic…… so now unfortunately you’re going to have to lie in it when there is an accident caused by the seriously slack regulatory environment you have created here in the offshore production world…. The whole thing needs overhauling from top to bottom… But I just cannot see that happening… it would cost the government and tax payer too much to do…. So – good luck.
Everyone is on the media disaster hype train, hating oil – making hugely outlandish statements….. banning this and that, blaming this company and that company… and why? Why is it like that? Because this happened in the US, and why did it even happen in the USA in the first place? Because your capitalist culture breeds greed and corruption and wild abandon for regulation and control. Bp has the best safety record of any major oil company OUTSIDE of the USA…. So you tell me where the weak link there is?
This is NOTHING compared to the worst industrial disasters of all time…. Nothing….
Did you know, that in Nigeria, more oil then has been spilt in the gulf is spilt EVERY year due to cr*p like this happening… EVERY year… do you know where 40% of America’s oil comes from? That’s right Nigeria…. And you know the worst offender for this out there? Exxon…. But – it didn’t happen on Good Ol USA’s shores did it – so you all don’t give a f**k….. yet everyone jumping on the “I’m an environmentalist” bandwagon… really… come on, you are the biggest consumers of oil on the planet – by a long stretch, you don’t have a clue – it’s just because the media is telling you you’re coastlines are ruined forever and this and that… when your biggest companies are responsible for some of the worst industrial disasters of all time…
Including this little gem….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster
And you know the worst thing – when a gallon of Gas in this “great” country hits $12 a gallon, there will be riots – uprisings… disgust … see how many people care about the environment then eh… no your media will start another disaster hype train, and everyone of you will have bought your tickets and be on it for the ride…. People really really need to get their facts straight here before going on TV and writing things in the press… this is a catastrophic accident, but it will be fixed soon – when I say soon, I mean A LOT sooner then your country’s regulatory systems and corrupt government…. I mean, who really runs America… is it politicians or is it a combination of the following, Oil Companies, Health Insurance Companies, Pharmaceutical companies…? Lobbyist’s control this country….
You make your bed with your Huge V8 trucks and your 8MPGs and your huge energy consumption and desire for all things new and plastic…… so now unfortunately you’re going to have to lie in it when there is an accident caused by the seriously slack regulatory environment you have created here in the offshore production world…. The whole thing needs overhauling from top to bottom… But I just cannot see that happening… it would cost the government and tax payer too much to do…. So – good luck.
Tasche
Active member
If you want oil at the price and quantity that you have it now then you will have to endure an environmental disaster every 30 years.
To fix the current problem you need greater regulations and the ability for any person on the rig to quickly and anonymously relate safety concerns to the highest levels.
To fix the leak you need a relief well.
To fix the current problem you need greater regulations and the ability for any person on the rig to quickly and anonymously relate safety concerns to the highest levels.
To fix the leak you need a relief well.
H8CH
Active member
I don't hate the US, I live here - I hate the US media and the US public hypocrisy.
and Yes, I am an Expert in Subsea Engineering - it's what im paid to do.... and if my name is on any engineering documentation, or if i signed off on any procedure or documentation as the engineer - and made a mistake with that, which subsequently caused something like this - I go to jail for a long time, so yeah I know what im talking about, I know this well, I know this problem. I'm more then happy to answer questions regarding it.
As for Fixing it? It being what? You're Regulatory system for safe offshore production?
well - how can you have a government agency that is responsbile for regulating this industry, that makes billions every year in revenues from every barrel of oil that is produced? It is fundamentally floored - it is not independant from oil profits, and Human Nature dictates that we will take the line of least resistance where we can / can get away with it. The MMS and the regulatory environment it created caused this. It needs fixing from the top down, but - that would cost the government and you as a taxpayer a hell of a lot, which everyone will complain about etc etc.... you see the problems you have here?
Fixing the well, well that's the easy part compared to changing the system of regulation here in the US and improving safety offshore.
Funny how nobody has reported the 2nd relief well is way ahead of schedule.
get learnt. For all those who belief the Bp web updates are all corrupt etc - take it from me, they're as honest as the day is long - this IS what it happening on the seafloor right now... stop watching Fox and CNN giving airtime to people trying to ffurther their own individual politican agenda. Stick with the Engineers and scientists who know what is happening, aka, those working on it... for you guys, that's me.
http://bp.concerts.com/gom/kentwellstechupdatelong053110.htm
and Yes, I am an Expert in Subsea Engineering - it's what im paid to do.... and if my name is on any engineering documentation, or if i signed off on any procedure or documentation as the engineer - and made a mistake with that, which subsequently caused something like this - I go to jail for a long time, so yeah I know what im talking about, I know this well, I know this problem. I'm more then happy to answer questions regarding it.
As for Fixing it? It being what? You're Regulatory system for safe offshore production?
well - how can you have a government agency that is responsbile for regulating this industry, that makes billions every year in revenues from every barrel of oil that is produced? It is fundamentally floored - it is not independant from oil profits, and Human Nature dictates that we will take the line of least resistance where we can / can get away with it. The MMS and the regulatory environment it created caused this. It needs fixing from the top down, but - that would cost the government and you as a taxpayer a hell of a lot, which everyone will complain about etc etc.... you see the problems you have here?
Fixing the well, well that's the easy part compared to changing the system of regulation here in the US and improving safety offshore.
Funny how nobody has reported the 2nd relief well is way ahead of schedule.
get learnt. For all those who belief the Bp web updates are all corrupt etc - take it from me, they're as honest as the day is long - this IS what it happening on the seafloor right now... stop watching Fox and CNN giving airtime to people trying to ffurther their own individual politican agenda. Stick with the Engineers and scientists who know what is happening, aka, those working on it... for you guys, that's me.
http://bp.concerts.com/gom/kentwellstechupdatelong053110.htm
Relish_man
Active member
true dat
MatRich
Active member
I wanted to end my rant on a hopefull note sorry if you only noticed that... also try to notice the maybee at the head of the sentence rather than an " I think" because I dont think this will happen but it will bring a conciousness to the people who now see more than ever how fucked our priorities are.
beardstatus
Member
ThaLorax
Active member
don't lash out at me, i agree with you on the regulatory problems and the system overhaul, i haven't (regularly/intentionally) watched any mainstream news in years, and i major in natural resource management.
i'll admit, by making that post, i was kind of being an asshole since all i've seen you post on this topic have been angry posts lashing out at our gov't and not really giving any solutions.
i'll admit, by making that post, i was kind of being an asshole since all i've seen you post on this topic have been angry posts lashing out at our gov't and not really giving any solutions.
ThaLorax
Active member
that attitude is exactly why you can't do shit. we've become so distanced from our government (and the corporations that run it) that everybody and their mom seems to think that they can't do shit. honestly, it's not that hard to accomplish something as long as people are lazy fuckheads about it, which everybody seems to be nowadays.
H8CH
Active member
Sorry to use you as a scape goat - but yeah im angry. Im angry because i care about this...... I was 48 hrs from flying out to the horizon because we had it booked to decommission a nearby well that had run dry and i was going out to pull that tree; it was 24 hrs away from moving off maconda when the blowout happened. I had 4 guys i work with on it when it exploded, so to me its more then an environmental fuck up - its something that will weigh on my mind when im next offshore in the gulf..... Yes, i go on about your slack safety regs, but thats because they directly effect me..... they clearly dont protect me like i thought, or like they do in the north sea..... So yeah, i'm angry with your government and capitalist priorities over safety.
Now i am consulting on the subsea efforts to repair this, and i actually helped get the Top Kill Manifold built (manifolds are what i work on day to day, it's my day job really...). But i cannot explain the details on here, it's very very complex, with 4000 people involved engineering. As i've said before, this is like getting Apollo 13 back in complexity..... and will not happen overnight; we're all going as fast as we can.
Did you follow that link? The Bp Website explains really clearly exactly what is going on Subsea, and the options being work all at the same time, in a really clear way.... I recommend you follow these technical video updates. If you have any specific questions then ask me or pm me.
The solution is ultimately a relief well as Tasche said... that's the solution. This happened off the West Coast of Australia last year, and the well flowed for over 50 days.
The good news is the second relief well is way ahead of schedule, I think it's at over 12,000 ft right now, which is great.... not that far to go... At the same time, they are working lots of options for containment / control.
Bp do not give a fuck about the commercial value of this well... it's useless now, and will be killed, so they're not trying to "save" it or anything.... this reservoir will produce for 20-30 years.... 30/40 days means nothing... they, like me and all my colleagues, just wanted to get this shit fixed asap.
I understand Americans live in a Blame culture and are just searching for someone to blame for this.... but it's not that simple.... yeah it's Bp's lease, but it wasn't their rig, it wasn't their accident.... they are responsible for the oil... they accept full responsibility - but they didn't cause this, it was caused by a collective of process failures..... ultimately, processes, procedures, inspections are all governed by the MMS....
Program on NGC right now about it all..... well, it all - to date!
Now i am consulting on the subsea efforts to repair this, and i actually helped get the Top Kill Manifold built (manifolds are what i work on day to day, it's my day job really...). But i cannot explain the details on here, it's very very complex, with 4000 people involved engineering. As i've said before, this is like getting Apollo 13 back in complexity..... and will not happen overnight; we're all going as fast as we can.
Did you follow that link? The Bp Website explains really clearly exactly what is going on Subsea, and the options being work all at the same time, in a really clear way.... I recommend you follow these technical video updates. If you have any specific questions then ask me or pm me.
The solution is ultimately a relief well as Tasche said... that's the solution. This happened off the West Coast of Australia last year, and the well flowed for over 50 days.
The good news is the second relief well is way ahead of schedule, I think it's at over 12,000 ft right now, which is great.... not that far to go... At the same time, they are working lots of options for containment / control.
Bp do not give a fuck about the commercial value of this well... it's useless now, and will be killed, so they're not trying to "save" it or anything.... this reservoir will produce for 20-30 years.... 30/40 days means nothing... they, like me and all my colleagues, just wanted to get this shit fixed asap.
I understand Americans live in a Blame culture and are just searching for someone to blame for this.... but it's not that simple.... yeah it's Bp's lease, but it wasn't their rig, it wasn't their accident.... they are responsible for the oil... they accept full responsibility - but they didn't cause this, it was caused by a collective of process failures..... ultimately, processes, procedures, inspections are all governed by the MMS....
Program on NGC right now about it all..... well, it all - to date!
A.Eberhard
Active member
Well this should be a wake-up call that we need to get away from oil and find better renewable resources for our lives. Problem is oil companies don't want this to happen and governments like the profit the oil brings in. We're stuck until every drop of oil is gone or when the prices go through the roof.
Oiseau
Member
What has happened is there has been too little regulation on the part of the United States government, who have allowed the oil companies (who work to a ridiculously low bottom line) to exploit an area, without an ENFORCED plan when there is a leak, to satisfy a gasoline addicted public. It is all very well blaming BP, but a lack of regulation is the key part to this crisis.
And if you think about the processes involved in getting crude oil from a sediment basin 5000ft below sea level, shipping it to a refinery, splitting it into gasoline, diesel, Avgas etc. etc, transporting it to your local gas station and then selling it for only $3 a gallon??!! Its simply ridiculous.
When I was in the US last i was physically shocked at how inefficient your vehicles and cars are. The rental Taurus i had could only manage about 15mpg... in europe my car does about 50mpg - thats without hybrid technology and stuff. And it still gets up entire Alps with no problem at all.
So until this addiction with oil is ended, (europe does just fine with high taxes and prices - some of which goes to a disaster relief fund), then nothing will change.
Unfortunately, N. America is now experiencing the dirty side of cheap oil - and its not pretty.
And if you think about the processes involved in getting crude oil from a sediment basin 5000ft below sea level, shipping it to a refinery, splitting it into gasoline, diesel, Avgas etc. etc, transporting it to your local gas station and then selling it for only $3 a gallon??!! Its simply ridiculous.
When I was in the US last i was physically shocked at how inefficient your vehicles and cars are. The rental Taurus i had could only manage about 15mpg... in europe my car does about 50mpg - thats without hybrid technology and stuff. And it still gets up entire Alps with no problem at all.
So until this addiction with oil is ended, (europe does just fine with high taxes and prices - some of which goes to a disaster relief fund), then nothing will change.
Unfortunately, N. America is now experiencing the dirty side of cheap oil - and its not pretty.
ThaLorax
Active member
you completely missed the point. i'm sure the guy you quoted isn't like that at all either.
as for your response. i'm very proud of my tree hugging self and i probably eat more granola than my parents. shit's healthy for you and cheap if you get it in large quantities from costco. and it tasted good with any fruit and honey. so... thanks for the hate?
as for your response. i'm very proud of my tree hugging self and i probably eat more granola than my parents. shit's healthy for you and cheap if you get it in large quantities from costco. and it tasted good with any fruit and honey. so... thanks for the hate?
pmills
Active member
whoops. sorry to shit on your parade, but it's what H8CH is getting at; there's nothing stopping you from giving up everything you've pursued in this life, to go oil free. You obviously know how bad it is for everything but you, why else wouldn't you have changed your life by now unless you didn't want to?
Unless you're planing to found a mass following of people, and lead them away from their addiction to oil, there's no difference of your impact whether you act now or wait for society to change.
It may hurt you to know that you're not all that important and that we all pretty much think the same way... as such my claims have nothing to do with how you think....Nobody on this website wants to give up what they have.
Unless you're planing to found a mass following of people, and lead them away from their addiction to oil, there's no difference of your impact whether you act now or wait for society to change.
It may hurt you to know that you're not all that important and that we all pretty much think the same way... as such my claims have nothing to do with how you think....Nobody on this website wants to give up what they have.
