Coalition Gov't or Bloodless Coup, Canadians?

BigJew

BigJew

Active member
So the Opposition parties are trying to join together to make a coalition gov't and overthrow the torys. What do Canadian NSers think?

Personally, I think it's the last thing we need right now. The Conservatives won, fair and square. This is just going to cause a bunch of bitching in the government and nothing will get done if the governor general gives them power. This looks to me like what Stalin did after the communist parties in Eastern Europe didn't get power.
 
our country already has a hard enough time being taken seriously. pulling something like this severely hurt foreign investment in our country. canada already has a hard enough road ahead of it, we don't need to disrupt it anymore. we had an election more then a month ago and to pull something like this disenfranchises the voter population. these politicians aren't interested in working for the canadian people. they all just want to sit in the big chair. they will do anything and so anything to stay or get into power.

harper wasn't smart about cutting public subsidies to the parties because the conservatives are the only party operating in the black that can get seats. the liberals have been operating in the red since dion came in and what haper plans to do with be the liberals death blow.

what i have a hard time understanding is that the liberals were ready to kick dion out right after the election because no one thought that he was suitable to become a leader and here we are where we could possibly have him as the prime minister of canada in about a week. it seems that the liberals don't care who is the prime minister as long as its a liberal. more partisian politics at work.

in short haper shouldn't have called the parties bluff, but i'm sure the non-confidence would ahave came down anyways even if harper didn't plan to cut public subsidies. i'm pretty much dissapointed with canadian politics as a whole

western canada is going to feel further alienated.
 
Staggering ignorance. Firstly, how are Canadian votes "disenfranchised" when the coalition forming the government got 62% of the popular vote? You forget that the Conservatives themselves are a coalition party: Reform and PC together. Secondly, obviously the Liberals would prefer a Liberal in the PM seat than a Tory, because the Liberal will enact policies in accord with their platform, and will appoint Liberals to cabinet posts. That's not "partisan", it's a basic representative democratic principle: you support people as leader who represent your beliefs more than the other guy. Thirdly, Dion is still being replaced as leader, not because they don't like him, but because he was ineffective politically, making your point utterly moot: the only decision here motivated by politics was Dion's ejection, which you apparently support.

Harper should have spent the time he had to deal with budgetary issues on actually fixing the budget and paying attention to economic problems instead of playing political games and trying to cut financial backing out from under the opposition parties. He built that seat lead on competence and lack of drama, and here he is completely fucking himself over in one fell swoop by engaging in theatre. He deserves what he's getting and if he hadn't been so arrogant none of this had to happen. There was no chance anyone was going to oust this government without a damned good reason for doing so. The Liberals don't need the NDP gaining legitimacy and taking seats away from them from the left; having 6 of them in cabinet posts doesn't help at all. And they're better situated politically in opposition to gain seats by railing against any perceived ineptitudes of the Harper minority than trying to run a country and hold together a motley crew of misfits at the same time. The NDP is the only party this move really helps.

That being said, if this coalition fails within 6 months, before the Liberals can regroup around a new leader, the Liberals and NDP are utterly fucked and I would bet large sums that the ensuing election would produce a Harper majority.
 
Harper made a very bad move trying to cut the public funding. Really what did he think would happen? I really think the liberals are too much of a mess to be governing right now.

uughh I hate canadian politics.
 
The Conservative Party might have been a "coalition" 4 years ago when they first combined the Reform and Progressive Conservatives, but as soon as they were one party and you were able to vote for that one party, they ceased being a coalition. I may not speak for all Canadians, but I would bet that when most of us went to the polls 6 weeks ago and voted "Liberal" or "NDP" or even "Bloc" we didn't vote for all of the above. I know many people out there who are both scared of the NDP and the Tories, and feel like their views are best represented with the Liberal party. How do they feel right now that the Liberals have gotten right into bed with the NDP (not to mention the separatists)? Ripped the fuck off, that's how most of them felt. Just because 62% of the population did not vote for Harper, that doesn't necessarily mean they voted against him (except in Newfoundland). It's not a 62% majority, it's a bunch of little chunks added together, and that is very very different. While only 37% of Canadians voted for a Tory minority government, 0% voted for this bastard child coalition.

In this day and age our multi party system in Canada is set up with the likelyhood of a minority government, not just a possibility. We have to make things work.

Oh, and it's not just the NDP that are winning here. By far the biggest winners are the Bloc. If you can't see that you are absolutely stupid. The Liberals and NDP will both have cabinet posts and will be the most powerful parties in the coalition when it comes to proposing legislation, but proposing it is nothing if you can't get the votes. And the Bloc will control every single one of those votes. And if they don't like it they will force the policy to be changed with fun little add-ons for Quebec every fucking time. This government will be completely beholden to the separatists.

Who knows how long this coalition will last. If these idiots could have agreed on anything for the past 2 years then Harper's first government wouldn't have lasted more than a couple months. How many times did the opposition threaten to bring down the government? On Kyoto? Nothing. On Afghanistan? Nope. On the spring budget, where they decried spending was at it's highest level, and out of control? No, not even then. And now they claim they are bringing down the government because they aren't spending enough on this recession. Bullshit. This move is a completely selfish act to preserve the government funding for their political parties, nothing else.

Whether you agree with Harper and the Tories or not, this is a disgrace for Canada. We had an election 6 weeks ago (whether we should have or not, that isn't the point, Canadians had their voice 6 weeks ago) and for better or worse we chose a Tory minority. A stronger one at that. The Liberals had their poorest showing since the 1890s, and no Liberal leader has ever had less of the vote than Dion. And he will be our PM come Monday.

The opposition claimed withdrawing public support for private political parties was damaging democracy, well guess what guys, this coalition is destroying it.
 
O NOEZ! FEER DE SEPERETISTS! Cheap political hackery: it just deposed a PM, so why not stick with it, right? I'll believe this "Bloc will hold real Canada hostage" garbage when it actually happens... I honestly don't think Duceppe is as petty as you make him out to be, and they're not just a bunch of separatists... they have a platform. Who knew?

When are you people going to take a basic Can-poli-sci class and discover, lo and behold, that in Canada we don't vote for parties, coalitions, or governments... we vote for MPs! I read 4-5 errors of exactly this sort in the above post. You elected some guy or lady to represent your needs and interests in Parliament. If you don't feel that that person's being part of a 3 party coalition reflects your needs and interests, vote for a different MP next time. It's really not that complicated.
 
I should point out that I don't really support this move at all... when I read about it, I first jaw-dropped, then did one of these.

riker-facepalm.jpg


I'm just really amused by all of the RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE from Conservative commentators about how this is undermining Canadian democracy. Sure, because Germany ceased to be democratic in 1982, right? This is a perfectly acceptable method of forming a government in a Westminster system, always has been and always will be. It's just really really fucking dumb.
 
will the seperatists be promising free bubblegum and bennigans coupons to everyone after the strike is over?
 
Of course the Bloc has a platform. One completely dedicated to Quebec. Separatist is probably a misnomer, they'd rather stay in Canada, bleed us dry, and use article 91 to get themselves out of whatever they don't like (I have taken a Canadian Polisci class).

Of course we vote for MPs. But look at our party system? When do MPs ever vote against their party? Pretty fucking rarely, and when they do, their party leader demotes them or kicks them out of the caucus. So JD, while we technically vote for MPs, we vote for the party.

Oh and "Perfectly acceptable way of forming a government" and "really really dumb move" shouldn't be used in the same statement. I'm not concerned with Germany 1982, I'm not concerned with Australia 1975, I'm concerned with Canada 2008/2009. Constitutional or not, this isn't perfectly acceptable right now.
 
I meant politically dumb. Like they've decided to ruin themselves in one fell swoop. Harper wants to do it for them, apparently they'd rather do it themselves. But it's always perfectly acceptable, because this is how the system works. A majority government is being formed by Members of Parliament who represent the majority of Canadians, and irrespective of party lines, that's a legitimate practice. MPs can vote whichever way they like, regardless of how they in practice do vote, and party alliances aren't and shouldn't be verboten. It's part of the charm of having more than 2 parties... and we'll have 4 parties again as soon as these 3 develop irreconcilable differences about something. Whether they're effective at all, we shall have to wait and see.

I just love Conservatives resorting to partisan hackery while accusing the other side of playing politics. It's delightfully hypocritical. Framing the issue as the "separatist coalition"... Curiously enough, led by the guy responsible for leading the fight against the Bouchard separatists in 1995 culminating in the Supreme Court's ruling on Reference Re Secession of Quebec! What a change of heart he must have had. Remember who passed the Clarity Act? The Liberals and Layton's NDP. Remember who opposed it? Joe Clark's PCs.

Too funny.
 
I don't know if you're referring to me, but I've never called this a separatist coalition. A coalition that depends on separatists for survival is what it is.

And I don't consider the PC anywhere within the new Conservative Party. It is essentially the Reform party by another name. How many seats the the PCs have in the election preceding the new Conservative Party, 12? With the Reform having 60? All the power players, with the exception of Peter McKay are from the Reform Party so don't give me the Joe Clark PC BS.

And yes, any conservative claiming the coalition parties are playing politics without admitting their own is both hypocritical and blind. $27 million or $30 million or whatever it the amount is, is an absolute drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things and it was definitely done to weaken the opposition parties. They are all in debt and recovering from a defeat in an election. Harper just didn't think their reaction would be this bad.
 
I am afraid I have to disagree with you here JD, which is rare.

First off though I will give some background, I did not vote for Harper so when I say this infuriates me it is not a Tory supporter freaking out but a Canadian supporter of democracy. (Yes I am aware that legally the constitution allows for this coalition but as already stated, not a single person in this country voted for it thus it is not what I would consider democratic). I live in Alberta, and as you know only one seat went to a non-conservative (NDP in Edmonton) so there is a lot of alarm here and the serious issues of Western Alienation are only going to be exacerbated by this. Anyway my concerns:

1) This will make us look ridiculous internationally, how can we portray ourselves as a world leader when we are being split by political infighting. What right do we have to promote democracy when we are an example of its dysfunctionality?

2) I have little to no faith that the parties will get along, it is not a particurially strong Coalition it requires basically everybody to go against the ruling government, that feels more like a Coup to me. For the numbers the Liberals have 77 seats, the New Democrats 37 and the Bloc 49, giving them 163 votes versus the Conservatives' 143. They only outnumber the Conservatives by 20 votes, obviously that means a lot of Canadians wanted the Tories in if it takes a combination of the entire opposition to snatch power. Also, look at how vicious the NDP and Liberals were against each other only 6 weeks ago, do you really believe all that is set aside now? Plus, under Dion, the man who had so little support he is being tossed from the leadership of his party. Not only will we have one unelected prime minister, we will have two following the conclusion of the leadership race in May.

3) As already stated the real winners will be the bloc. Their entire involvement in national politics pisses me off, they should not be a legitimate national party if they are not willing to consider the rest of the nation. Anyway, the entire purpose of their existence is to remove Quebec from Canada and make sure that if they do stay within our county, they get the best deal. For the coalition to work the Bloc have the power, this allows them to demand more favours etc like they already do. If that doesn’t work then they can collapse the government and say "look the Canadian parliament is unstable and unusable, we need to separate and govern ourselves” They can do no wrong here, well done to them for manipulating this much control.

If there is a vote of Non-Confidence then I can only pray that the Governer General allows the people to voice their opinion and we go back to the polls, sure it will waste another 300 million dollars but at least the public will have a voice and not be forced to suffer a coup. I highly doubt this will happen though, she is married to a seperatist afterall.
 
Wow a lot of people posted as I was typing there. Anyway, what I also want to point out is the bullshit reasoning behind their forcing this now, the coalition is forcing action now because they think they can win now not because of the economic crisis. If that was the reasoning, I as a voting Canadian would like to see the Conservative budget before I say they are not going to be able to handle our country's economic future. Also, the fact that they are moving the budget forward shows that the Conservatives are aware of this

Canada is the only G8 country to be making a profit right now, we already cut our GST to stimulate the economy, that works better than a bailout like the USA. Just look, the UK cut their VAT last week. We do not rely on sub-prime mortgages like the states and thus are not facing the same pressure they are. If we act cautiously and intelligently we should be fine, this is not rational. Sure the world may be going into a recession but I dont see it as a mass panic kinda thing for Candians, at least not as it stands.
 
i dont get it canada voted for harper and the conservatives to be our leaders thats how democracy works the one with the most votes wins but now the three rejects who didnt win can all of a sudden over power them? the conservatives are one party with specific ideas that we voted for. we didnt vote for seperatists socialists and the liberals who have no leader and are an absolute mess...what the fuck is this since when have we let a bunch of people who didnt win become the winners? it makes no sense..and the bloc quebecois shouldnt even exist what is the point? they cant ever have majority and the only reason they are still able to operate is because they get tax payers from all over canadas money for each vote meaning the people in every other province are funding another provinces bid to seperate is rediculouspolitics blows my mind its so retarded sometimes
 
i dont care about it, but you cant be mad at them, governments aloud them to do it, so they can if they want. thats why they put in place votes of non confidence
 
The main problem with this "coalition" government is that both parties involved are not standing on their principals. for instance the NDP arent going to increase taxes like they wanted to, the worse part about this is they are being backed by the Bloc Quebecois.....THE BLOC QUEBECOIS...THE SEPARATISTS!!!! These are the people that want to separate Quebec from Canada!
 
As someone else said, it's going to mean very little because there will be a new election in 5 months.

The whole thing only makes me hate Layton and his shitty little grin more and definitely does not improve the Liberal's image (Ignatieff/Rae are going to have a great time regaining voters' confidence after Dion).

Did anyone else hear this story? It basically shows that Layton was pretty eager to cut a deal with the Bloc before any of this even happened.

http://www.ottawasun.com/Video/home.html?fr_chl=df6154d48b79c72e3fe85055abaf28ec0e7ca8d3&fr_story=b795dd1eb77b764f08f25b45d7b6d2ef31f86026
 
"The sober, reasonable, moderate

thing to do in this time of economic uncertainty is to provoke a

constitutional crisis — to cobble together a coalition without a prime

minister or a program, propped up by a separatist party, and demand the

governor general call upon it to form a new government, replacing the

old one we just elected. It’s been six weeks, after all."

I thought this was a decent article about it, I agree anyway.

http://blog.macleans.ca/2008/11/30/the-tories-made-them-do-it/

 
i'm glad veteran and the rest of you said what i was going to say in response to j.d. because i really don't have the time or the energy to argue over the internet.

and its not partisan hackery, the majority of conservatives will admit that harper was in the wrong for what he did for party subsidies and acknowledge that he shares some of the blame in this. don't think that we hold harper innocent in this matter for a second no matter how much you'd like it to jd.
 
I just find it really really funny that everyone is so shocked by this happening. It's as if no one knows anything about how our government works, and woke up in the morning, picked up a newspaper and went "HOLY SHIT WE LIVE IN A WESTMINSTER PARLIAMENTARY SYSTEM?! I thought this was like the States! I didn't realize I had a Member of Parliament representing me and that his vote counts equal to all the other 307 in the house, and he can cast it in accordance with other parties or not as he sees fit! This is BLOWING my mind right now."

How is this hard to understand? I don't think, by peoples' reactions, that they've thought this through... say an up or down motion comes along and everyone in Parliament has to vote on it absent a coalition. The Conservatives vote in support. The Liberals vote against. The NDP vote against. The Bloc vote however it suits them in the circumstances. Now say on this vote that the Liberals strike a deal with the Bloc to get them to vote against the proposition. It fails. This is standard procedure. Alliances are formed and fall apart all the time on various issues. You never have 4 parties voting 4 different ways because there simply aren't 4 ways to vote. There's always compromise, and this is no different... if the coalition makes good compromises leading to good policy decisions, then this will have been a success for our Parliamentary system. If they don't (and I don't think they will because they're largely a bunch of fuck ups, particularly when combined into a witches' brew of stupidity), it won't be a failure of democracy inherently, just a failure of these three parties to work within the system to the advantage of the country.

My basic point is that sure, you're all well within your rights to say this was a terrible idea, and it'll harm the country, but to say that it's anti-democratic evidences a failure to understand how parliamentary democracy works... and saying "well I expect it to work differently" is naive, you should know how this shit works before you cast your vote, not whine because you wish certain rules (that are fundamental to the operation of the system, by the way) didn't apply. It's far more democratic than the US system, at least, so if you'd prefer to live under that one...

Anyway. The dramatics are funny. If people would read... even wikipedia... they wouldn't be surprised that this can happen. I love hearing, "I know it's constitutional, but"... the constitution doesn't even come into it, it's just the basic functioning of the type of government we have. It's supposed to happen more often, in theory... but usually the parties fight too much to ever agree on anything. Which will probably be the case again here.
 
Fuck you have to be pedantic, okay then I'll play along. It is in the constitution, which of course lays out that our country shall be governed in the style similar to the British Parliament. Obviously there are some differences between the House of Lords and Senate etc.

As far as being undemocratic, uh it is. Democracy being defined as: "Government by the people; that form of government in which the sovereign power resides in the people as a whole, and is exercised either directly by them (as in the small republics of antiquity) or by officers elected by them." (Oxford English Dictionary) They are not acting in accordance with how they were elected. The NDP were elected on a more socialist platform but they are not remaining loyal to their constituents. The Green Shift was a major part of the Liberal policy, it is not being used either. Nobody elected a coalition, thus it is not a government as elected by the people. Just that the coalition is legal under our parliamentary system does not mean it is democratic.

I know how our government works, strangely I think that is something that is important, especially when I am voting. I agree with you that it will fall and ultimately could result in losses for the coalition parties and result in a Harper majority, however it could also drive us closer to another referendum.

 
just putting my two cents in i havent read everything here

but coalition governments really dont tend to last long. and with an economic crisis on the way we really dont need to be spending money to have another election anytime soon.
 
this runs parallel with the Sprite Series contests in whistler... oh you won? sorry we have to reward the losers instead; after all, somebody out there is rooting for them. Typical 'everybody's a winner' Canadian mentality-- or at least, 'its ok if you're a loser'. And yes I get this Westminster style , you vote for parliament not for government idea, but this does not absolve the fact that losing means shit all in this country.
 
to quote one of my friends:

"While I can understand where a lot of the opposition to this coalition

comes from, I have to point out a few things about progressive

federalism, and the antique canadian system.

While I do agree

that it is strange that Dion would get to be Prime Minister without

Canada going to an election, I have to point out that Canadians do not

vote for their Prime Minister, we are not the States.

The only

people who got to vote for Harper were the 52,000 voters who turned up

in Calgary Southwest, and drawing back further, the 34,000 Conservative

Party members.

Of those, he only received 38,000 votes in Calgary, and 17,000 from his party.

The

Canadian system is not direct democracy, and should not be construed as

such. We elect, or attempt to elect, people to represent our political

interests, and those people vote on who acts as a figure head for them.

The Prime Minister has limited power, not like the President to the

south, this must be kept in mind.

Furthermore, I would like to

commend the Opposition parties for coming together and giving the

Canadian system a good shake by the ankles. I voted for people to

represent my best interest as a Canadian, and for once, they are not

idly sitting by and doing things by the book, they are enacting change

in an ancient, obsolete first past-past-the-post plurality system.

Forget

what partisan sentimentalities you have, this is genuinely exciting

progressive democracy in action. This is the first time such a move has

been made since Confederation. This is also the most outrageous

political move since Trudeau drafted a Senator into his Cabinet.

So good on them."
 
"The mini-budget originally proposed a three-year ban on the right of

civil servants to strike, limits on the ability of women to sue for pay

equity, and eliminated subsidies for political parties." - CBC.ca: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/12/03/harper-address.html?ref=rss

Bottom

line, this is a party that shouldn't be in office. Its members attack

some of our basic rights as citizens of this country. Imagine if the

Conservatives had let it slip that this is what they were planning

BEFORE the election...

You can't tell me that the things they

were planning were in any way fair, justified, or morally right. We

need this party out of office and we need them out NOW, whether it's a

coalition that ousts them in the House of Commons or an election is

called and they lose. Thank God they didn't get a majority. If they

had, this would've passed, and we'd still be stuck with them for as

long as Harper wanted (I know, I know, he set election dates in stone.

Oh wait, he ignored that, so my point still stands) unless Michaëlle

Jean stepped in.

If Michaëlle Jean decides to call an election, whatever you do, don't give the Cons a majority.
 
Here's my problem with this whole thing:

First off, let me say that although I myself back the Conservatives, what I have to say has nothing at all to do with my political affiliation. JD, while giving this Coalition power may be acceptable in a Westminster democratic system, the PEOPLE did not appoint Stephane Dion as their Prime Minister. This will essentially tell Canadians that their vote does not matter. After an election that recorded the lowest voter turnout in recent years, this will be the nail in the coffin for Canadian voters.

Should the Harper gov't lose the confidence vote next Monday, which they probably will barring a successful proroguing of Parliment, our Governor General should be calling an election. That is how the political process is supposed to work. The last thing this country needs is to be run be Stephane Dion, a man that can't even keep himself calm and composed when he is angry (has been seen this week visibly shaking when he's worked up). I did not vote for Dion or Layton and their political parties and if you check the currently owned seats in the House, neither did Canada.
 
From what i heard the NDP and the BLoc hatched plans long before this, and when the liberals learned of these plans had to decide if they would follow suit or not. Based on Harper's lack of a fully materialized plan for the current/ upcoming economic crisis The NDP Bloc and Liberals will pass a vote of non-confidence for Stephen Harpers gov't. I doubt any of the other parties would have had a more materialized plan but after this goes through you better bet they will.
WOW,....i just wrote a lot, and deleted it all because i got really angry at how shitty Canadian politics are. I don't like any of the parties, but i kinda like what is happening here, it will force people to be more creative and more directive with less hussing around. Sure it will waste a lot of time and money, but that seems to be what we are good at doing anyways.
The party that i currently see with the most fitting ideals for Canada is the Canadian action party....too bad they hardly exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Action_Party
 
It pisses me off when people bitch at gilleas duceppe for joining the coalition. he is doing all of quebec a fovor no matter who you vote for! yes he is a seperatist, but right now he has no power to seperate quebec so you dont have to wory about us leaving along with all of our reasources. its a good thing that he is in this deal because if dion became head of the government, he would do everything in his power to take away power from quebec. why? quebec is the reason why the liberals are never voted in, we are simply to many. since we generaly dont like the liberal party, they always perform badly in quebec. without a representative from quebec in this coalition, dion would for sure do everything to ensure he gets re elected... hence lowering quebecs representation. Ducepp has his place in this party because without him we would lose our rights. he also has a place because unlike harper he has an actual economic plan with numbers layed out and planned, he is bringing a lot to the table.
 
you are either far too young, or don't know your history.

Regardless of that, of course it's a good deal for Duceppe and Quebec, but that's the problem, it's bad for the rest of Canada, and frankly, that is what I care about.

Anyways, happy the sanity has prevailed, at least temporarily, and parliament has been prorogued.
 
what history am I getting wrong, dont tell me that since the creation of the PQ in 1968, its been going great for the liberals
 
The Libs have consistently gotten a decent number of seats out of Quebec for at least the last half dozen elections or so. And it's pretty much a lock they get most of the island of Montreal. The last 2 elections have hurt a bit, but they still take quite a bit.
 
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