Church and state

afton_steeze

Active member
so i got this email from my family, yes, i'm a christian.

i wanted to know what ns thinks about the separation of church and state...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One detail that is never mentioned is that in Washington, D.C. there

can never be a building of greater height than the Washington Monument

.

With all the uproar about removing the ten commandments, etc., this is worth a

moment or two of your time.

On the aluminum cap, atop the Washington

Monument in Washington , D.C.

, are displayed two words: Laus Deo.

No one can see these words. In fact, most visitors to the monument are

totally unaware they are even there and for that matter, probably couldn't care

less.

These words have been there for many years; they are 555 feet, 5.125 inches

high, perched atop the monument, facing skyward to the Father of our nation,

overlooking the 69 square miles which comprise the District

of Columbia, capital of the United States of America.

Laus Deo. Two seemingly insignificant, unnoticed words. Out of sight and,

one might think, out of mind, but very meaningfully placed at the highest point

over what is the most powerful city in the most successful nation in the world.

So, what do those two words, in Latin, composed of just four syllables and only

seven letters, possibly mean? Very simply, they say 'Praise be to God.'

Though construction of this giant obelisk began in 1848, when James Polk was

President it was not until 1888 that the monument was inaugurated and opened to

the public. It took twenty-five years to finally cap the memorial with a

tribute to the Father of our nation, Laus Deo 'Praise be to God.'

From atop this magnificent granite and marble structure, visitors may take in

the beautiful panoramic view of the city with its division into four major

segments. From that vantage point, one can also easily see the original

plan of the designer, Pierre Charles l'Enfant .a perfect cross imposed upon the

landscape, with the White House to the north. The Jefferson Memorial is

to the south, the Capitol to the east and the Lincoln Memorial to the west.

A cross you ask? Why a cross? What about separation of church and

state? Yes, a cross; separation of church and state was not, is not, in the

Constitution. So, read on. How interesting and, no doubt, intended to

carry a profound meaning for those who bother to notice.

Within the monument itself are 898 steps and 50 landings. As one climbs

the steps and pauses at the landings the memorial stones share a message.

-On the 12th Landing is a prayer offered by the City of Baltimore;

-On the 20th is a memorial presented by some Chinese Christians;

-On the 24th a presentation made by Sunday School children from New York and

Philadelphia quoting Proverbs 10:7, Luke 18:16 and Proverbs 22:6.

-When the cornerstone of the Washington

Monument was laid on July

4th, 1848 deposited within it were many items including the Holy Bible

presented by the Bible Society. Such was the discipline, the moral direction,

and the spiritual mood given by the founder and first President of our unique

democracy 'One Nation, Under God.'

-Washington's prayer for America:

'Almighty God; We make our earnest prayer that Thou wilt keep the United States

in Thy holy protection; that Thou wilt incline the hearts of the citizens to

cultivate a spirit of subordination and obedience to government; and entertain

a brotherly affection and love for one another and for their fellow citizens of

the United States at large. And finally that Thou wilt most graciously be

pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves

with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of mind which were the

characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion, and without a

humble imitation of whose example in these things we can never hope to be a

happy nation. Grant our supplication, we beseech Thee, through Jesus

Christ our Lord. Amen.'

When one stops to observe the inscriptions found in public places all over our

nation's capitol, he or she will easily find the signature of God, as it is

unmistakably inscribed everywhere you look. You may forget the width and height

of 'Laus Deo ', its location, or the architects but no one who reads this will be

able to forget its meaning, or these words: 'Unless the Lord builds the house

its builders labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over the city, the

watchmen stand guard in vain.' (Psalm 127: 1)

 
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise therof

I think that its fine to put praise god on monuments, put the 10 commandments in a court, I don't really care about that stuff, just don't try to teach creationism in biology class. That's my only gripe.
 
i'm not sure what this proves.To me it just says that a couple christians got togeter and carved a christian saying in a monument. Is the article trying to saying that the separation of church and state shouldn't happen or what?
 
If america was to put a 1.5% tax on real estate owned by churches, we'd have out HUGE national debt cleared up in about two years.

Churches don't get taxed. I understand that separation of church and state is all over the declaration of independence, but if we base our country on the morals the church stands for i think they should have to help us dig our way out of the economic shithole
 
It's just architecture. I'll start bitching when government policy and religious beliefs start mixing. Thankfully abortion is not an issue in this country, and our president doesn't say God told him to do certain things. Oh, wait.
 
i'm by no means religious but taking away the ten commandments from such architectural art like the Washington Monument is (not equally like, but similar to) erasing the "smile" off of mona lisa. it's a defamation to the art and freedom of speech. This has very little to do with the separation of church and state actually.
 
you have become my friend...seriously

Canada has separated church and state a long time ago...in fact it violated the first article in the charted of rights and freedom. I am happy this way.
 
I think its a waste of tax money to squabble in the courts over whether things say God or not, but as long as no laws that show favoritism are passed.
 
Manifest Destiny is what makes me laugh.

I am suprised that America believed(or still does) in such a thing.

"The god given right that America should rule all of North America". Now that's some genuine classic comedy right there folks.
 
hahaha. how about we just cut spending. do you even have a source for what you just said? churchs dont get taxed because they are non profit. any non profit organization gets huge tax write offs, not just churches.
 
I am all for the 1st amendment but I don't think that some latin words meaning "praise be to god" on a 555 foot tall monument is infringing on anyones rights. I do think that "Under God" in the pledge is quite unnecessary considering that it was not added until the 50s.
 
He got that right. Neither of my parents have ever made me go to church, and in no way am i religious. There is a massive difference between church influence and presence. Which one is truly 'seperation' I mean, I think anyone who seriously bases their decisions on what god says might be a bit silly, and i get really mad when the people who do this lead our country for eight years. And maybe the 'praise god' thing is on the top of the washington monument stands for something bigger. A lot of this religous stuff gets overlooked. Does it really anger all you super-anti-religious folk to say go in the pledge of allegiance. It really doesn't bother me, i don't think about it. Should it? Do you really thing that it is subconsciously effecting me to praise the lord?
 
just because this religion of christianity dominates our country , it is not forced onto anyone... and dont even bring up the pledge of allegance. if you dont want to say god than dont say it
 
You guys shouldn't be taking religious influence so lightly. Why doesn't the monument say praise america or long live freedom? Dilusional people with invisible ties to the lies of the past. I'm not too worried though, people are getting slightly smarter, it's only a matter of time before religion is rejected by a world of rational thinkers.
 
I'm a huge supporter of seperation of Church and State. Is it really that important to get rid of a stupid phrase on the Washington Monument? And its no suprise that a cross was made, the architects where Christians, who cares?

I think people need to focus their efforts on having creationalism removed from the classroom and laws like stores can't be open on sunday/ you can't drink on sunday, etc.
 
just a reminder... i was sent this article and while i read it i didn't know what to think... so these aren't MY views.

just getting that out there.
 
sounds dumb, but America is one of the major superpowers in the world, thats strength wise though, you guys haven't done the smartest things these days
 
Haha im right with you god and jesus is so cheesy, i dont believe in either, when we say the pledge of aliegence or what ever i dont say under god because i think there is not such thing as god.
 
i cant wait for the day that there will be no religion, even though it probably wont happen because people are too ignorant, and can't think for themselves and need something to fall back on.
 
How is that forcing a religous view on you. Its a prayer where no one can see it. It's a few prayers on some landings. You dont have to pray them, or even read them. If there were Islamic prayers, I wouldnt think that forces that religion on anyone.

The only thing you might be on track with that statement regarding the article, could be the L'Enfant's city plan for DC, and the cross in it. The fact that the streets are formed in a cross and the possibility of circulation through the city being forced through major streets along the different parts of the cross might be a good argument.

Unfortunately, there are many oblique cross streets. Also, while the street plan may have had some symbolic meaning(which I highly doubt), the city plan deals with proportion, and the form of the cross may have been the best option for the city(extend the North-South portion of open land between the white house and jefferson memorial, south past the jefferson memorial and it runs into the river. You can't extend just the north section, and have it be longer than the south section. This large and overpowering asymmetry would have been disastrous to his plan(which he was not actually paid for). But, some asymmetry is present, with the longer part of the "cross" extending towards the capital, but it is not the same kind of asymmetry that would have been present in the last example. Perhaps the long sections is symbolic of the importance of the capital and the government itself, especially with the placement of the capital on capital hill above the rest of washington. It doesn't get some short stubby extention of the mall like the white house or the jeff. mem. Instead it is the longer and gets a long mall, with streets leading into it, encouraging circulation into the center. (the Capitol is the center of washington, not the washington monument). -even this fact further justifies that the capitol itself is the most prominent part of L'enfant's city plan, not subtle "cross" references to God, but that the capitol, representing the government, and also freedom, is the most important part of this country.

That is just my observation of the city plan in the 5 minutes I looked at it. L'enfant may have said, I want this plan to be a Christian Cross. But that is terrible city planning and terrible architecture. An architect of his level would never have designed with form first, fitting the function and program into a preconceived notion of what he thought the city plan should have been with no reference to the actual site and landscape. If he did, show me the papers and process of his design and how the Christian Cross and it's symbolic nature was a major and central part to his plan and I will be wrong, and very sad that such a great plan was derived in such a way(not the reference to the cross, the actual process and derivation of the plan from a form-in general).

Also, couldn't he have just made everything by totally symmetrical and made a street grid of squares with the capitol in the center, like many other cities, with a plain, boring grid? But wait, that's a cross too. A street grid of many crosses, all together intertwining the entire city into a conglomeration of 1000's of crosses. Oh wait, So the entire motive of the city of Phoenix, AZ was to create a giant grid of crosses for its street grid... No, it's proportion and simple orthogonal street grids. It's hard to get away from crosses in architecture, city planning and all that. It's up to you to determine what you think of it and if you think you are viewing something symbolic relating to Jesus on the cross.

One last thing. I think the fact that nothing can be taller than the washington monument in DC is probably untrue. While it may pertain to Arlington, VA(no building is taller than 55 feet). The height of building in DC is no where near 555 feet. There is a strict height limit to 13 stories. (which may have been lifted for a couple buildings, such as the old post office at around 300 feet that was built in 1899, and another building that comes in around 201 feet, with a clear reference to the old post office). so the "fact" that nothing can be taller than the washington momument looks like complete bs. If you want me to look up building codes, I will.

If your still reading, thank you. I dont think anyone will make it to here, especially with my architectural ramblings.

The Constitution only says 3 things about religion. There is no WALL of separation between church and state. There is separation, just not total separation.

1. There can't be a state religion.

2. People should be free to practice any religion they want

3. Government official cant be tested on the bible(or something like that. It's not terribly important and I cant remember it).

Sorry for the long post.
 
I know no one read my post above so heres the sparknotes:

The cross thing about this city plan is BULLSHIT. It is bad architecture/city planning to take a preconceived idea into the planning of a project and trying to fit the function into it. It doesn't reference a cross but instead shows that the capitol is the most important thing there. If you want to know more read the post above. Also the height restriction of 555 feet is Bullshit. It's 13 stories.
 
you may think you're a christian because you found faith through some sort of trial and error or divine intervention, but really RELIGION found you, and not because of anything you did. you're a product of your environment. if you were born in 15th century Africa, do you think you would be a Christian? lol
 
Im glad that you think that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and many more infuntial people, not just in our country, but int he world are irrational thinkers because they believe in God.

And to you steeze,

Are you fucking kidding me? We cant think for ourselves and need something to fall back on? I can completely think for myself and I chose to believe in God. Big deal. Do I care that you're atheist. Sure, but do I throw it in your face and disrepect you? No. Have some motherfucking respect for people and their beliefs. And you hope that someday religion isn't present? How is today's world with religion really that bad?

I dont know why I keep posting in this thread. That cross stuff about the city plan was bullshit(that's me talking as an architecture student, not a christian). It makes me sad lies like that are being passed by someone who clearly has no idea what they are talking about.
 
Athiests always think they're being persecuted, christians think the same, and you know that the muslims think they're being persecuted, same with the jews, and pretty much everyone else that believes anything about anything. Someone's persecuting you for your religion. So whatever, as long as everyone is pissed off we're probably doing something right.
 
no, thats the jews

the "chosen ppl of Israel"

i joke with my jewish friends, like if we re in the lunch line "chosen person of israel coming through!"

its cool though
 
Yeah, most of the posts are clearly unintelligent, but maybe we can give some brahs some of that "book learning."

I don't have the citation for this quote but it is effective nonetheless, "Religion is the evolutionary coping for that which we don't understand."

In my opinion Religion can't be removed from the human condition, it is something that has been ingrained in our species, just as primal instincts are to lions or whatnot. As a social species, we are a naturally ethical beings for the sake of society, and religion is just a way to enforce ethical behavior.
 
didn't read the e-mail. But isn't it obvious to any rational human being? separation of church and "state" is essential. its not even worth debating. If these are the things getting debated, which they are, nothing will ever get done. Its another argument designed to trap people and its working perfectly. stop.
 
See if we really wanted to try to somehow end our 9.6 trillion dollars of debt we would start taxing reservations (which have no sales tax at all)
 
What is it the fact that you dont believe that the U.S. is 9.6 trillion dollars in debt:http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

my bad its only 9.3 trillion

or.. do you not believe that reservations have no sales tax?

next time please make a post that actually means something not just a stupid remark because you dont know facts.
 
No I agree with you about our debt. I laughed because you wanted to tax the indian reservations. Do you honestly think we would clear our debt by taxing them? Or even come remotely close? No. And there is no way in hell they (the native americans) would go for that. There are other means of cutting our national debt (i.e. cut back on the war on drugs which will in turn lessen the amount of people in our prisons which wil in turn save taxpayers $$, tax the rich, tax churches and get out of Iraq). The thing is though Congress passed a bill in the 1930s that would give tax incentives to businessrd located on reservation property and if the government were to turn around and take that back (again) all hell would break loose.

But you're right...I dont know the facts.
 
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