Campbell, oh Campbell.

L

Lilhorsey_2

New member
While browsing around the site, I saw this whole Cream magazine thingy, and decided to check it out.

Http://writetheotherway.com.

I've been wondering who in skiing would be the first to come up with the single dumbest interview to date in the history of our sport. Not surprisingly, it was Campbell over at the 9 who managed to take drivel to a whole new level.

Sure it looks like on the surface like he's supporting the little guy, super anti-establishment, and only trying to grow the sport. Did you really look into what he's saying? Let's go through a few of the major quotes:

"Magazines expect small companies to be able to pay the same sort of rates large companies pay, and they can’t even prove that advertising can generate sales for a

small company such as myself."

They can't prove that advertising can generate sales? Well sir, welcome to the 2000's. There's this search engine called Google that people can use. When you look around for studies done on the effectiveness of advertising, surprisingly enough, you can find more than enough proof that advertising is effective! The companies probably didn't prove it to you, because they were so dumbfounded at the idiocy of questioning a well-known fact in the marketing world.

"And when starting an upstart ski company, or a magazine, you’re a threat to these people, because you have an insight into the ski youth. You’re a threat to these conglomerate corporations

that hire marketing firms for half a million dollars to produce some of the worst ads you’ve ever seen."

If someone like you would even bother to talk to a higher up at a "conglomerate corporation" you would realise that you're wrong. The larger companies LOVE what the small companies like yours are doing. They feel that it brings life to the sport, and stokes out the youth on a segment of the sport that otherwise would go unfilled.

"Kids don’t realize that when you pay $300 for a pro model, that company is probably buying that pro model for $30. Kids aren’t getting a break."

Wait, aren't your skis some of the most expensive out there? How come you're not giving kids a break if your shit only costs $30 bucks to make?

"One of the big problems is that these companies don’t want to devote the millions of dollars that it would take to develop a good ski, maybe retool their factory a bit, and order a different core than they put into their carving ski."

Did you know that Salomon created a completely new boot mould and design for the SPK boot? It's the first boot ever to be created from the ground up purely for freestyle. They spent tonnes of money having their R&D team design the perfect freestyle boot. This is people with Engineering degrees working with their pro team, not just a bunch of pot smoking morons sitting around a garage. We're talking real product here that's going to last, and function the best. Salomon's entire freestyle lineup has been changed, and they're putting as much effort in as anybody.

The second point about this is if Salomon ever pulled out their money that goes into our sport, many of the major competitions wouldn't happen. Salomon the "big scary corporate conglomerate" funds a huge segment of our sport. They even allow your riders to go to the contest and take part. So if we all pull our money from Salomon, we'll be waiting for a cheapskate like you to fund the USOpen. You got that kind of money?

"I don’t want to name names, because I don’t want to piss anybody off, but I would say that 3/4 of the independent

companies… I mean I know for a fact that I have not sold out. I like using small boutique manufacturers, and they do tend to put more quality into their skis."

Why won't you name names? If you're going to be this obnoxious, you could at least point out the companies you're talking trash about. Perhaps its because you think they're all like you... those who have heard the stories know that when someone speaks badly of ninthward, you come in with your big fancy lawyer and throw around threats all day. Weren't there threads around this site about how you didn't pay for your ads? I heard rumors of you not paying the photographer that shot all your ads too... did you silence these people with lawsuit threats? Nobody will talk about it...

"I have refused to do two things. I refuse to cut corners in materials, and I refuse to cut corners in manufacturing. We need more amateur contests, and we need companies to sponsor these amateur

contests. Kids need to know that they are the future of skiing."

So that whole thing called the Young Gun Open. That had nothing to do with supporting amaeur contests right? Line is just another sellout corporate conglomerate? Get off your ass and run a contest like this... the companies you're talking trash on are doing it, so why aren't you?

Don't even get on other companies about cutting corners. Other than the people at your company who hype up how indestructible your skis are, they are really not all that great. I've seen your team riders with the broken edges and peeling apart tips.

"We all need to stand together and say ‘No, we won’t pay $700 for a pair of skis

that has had the same graphic for 3 years.’ Once kids realize that, they won’t have to wait for Rossi to come

out with a new ski, they’ll start demanding that ski."

I'm going to play devils' advocate... so what you're saying is that people should buy your skis for barely less than the rossi you talk about just because you have cool graphics? I'd bet that if you actually got under the "hood" of both skis, you'd find that the rossi was of much higher quality. I mean come on, you've only been making skis for 3 years now, and they've been doing it for much longer than that.

You kids have to be careful. When one of these major corporations advertises to you you see it coming. It's expected. However, this article was nothing more than a paid for ad. Didn't you see the ninthward logo at the bottom of the page? Plus, those "Articles" in freeskier and ski time about ninthward... did you notice that there were ninthward ads in the mag too? Just like everything he hates, Campbell is simply buying space to feed you his message. Read between the lines, think about your opinions, and maybe you do buy everything he said, and are mad at me for writing all of this.

Just make sure that you really think about each point. Don't let the teenage desire to hate corporations take over your life, sometimes these corporations can be better than the little guys. Sometimes not! They definitely can be evil... just make sure you're actually looking for the facts, not just listening to someone's paid-for rant to drive sales.

Straight from the horses mouth.

 
I read the same story/ad today and thought the same thing. I couldn't have said it better myself. Rock on Horse!
 
i used to think target was evil, my best friend worked there and soem of the stories are rediculous. then they sposonred dumont, and someone who supports skiing cant be all that bad right?
 
Wow, LilHorsey_2. I loved 1, and now two is here, owning. Thank you for that. I can't even express how greatful I am to read that.
 
I disagree with... half of that. But I'll have to write it up later, Im just amazed at how quickly these kids opinions can be changed. unreal.
 
lol yeah i read that crap last night, that guy is seriously living in his own small world.
 
God dammit. His fucking comments on write-ups and ads and spending money come press time...shit...you nailed it.

DP and the whole Cream guys are on point though. It's Campbell's words...

Oh, and one thing I'd also like to add, after re-reading this from last night...."They say they might put

new edges on their ski, but I guarantee that if you do the research, they’re putting in the same edges they

put on their junior skis.There’s really is no difference."

I reall wonder where the fuck that statement came from. Why can't we all believe Dynastar, a company with numerous problems with edges and blowouts over the past few seasons, to spend the money in R&D and make their product better?(With all that dirty money they're jacking from the industry...) ...But we have to take every word from Campbell and 9th on how indestructable 9th's are at face value...I can't buy it. You do the research, and stop lying.
 
and just to be correct it wasnt an interview... he just wrote 4 short essays about how cool 9 is.
 
I posted this in a different thread, but I think it fits here.

As much as I have badmouthed and had a true hatred of 9 since their inception, I must say that reading Cambells words was the most refreshing thing in a long time.

I've been saying this shit to people around me for awhile now, and it's been something constantly on my mind. We need to give a fuck you to the corporate companies and support the companies that support our sport. Without this, our sport will not grow and shit won't go down. Read what Boronowski says in his interview, he has some of the exact same things to say, but he is less blunt with it. I know most people are going to hate me saying this and are going to shit talk about Cambell, but the man has a point, and I agree with him, as much as I hate ninthward as a company.

I think a lot of the people in the industry are afraid to speak out about the shit he says because their jobs and lives are based around these very companies, but as he suggests (and as you can see in Anthony's interview), it's known and it is just going to take a mass realization that the corporate ski world isn't going to help our sport until they are either phased out and the 'core' companies can take over, or they realize what the future is and start putting the money they put into racing into our sport.

Bring the hate.
 
the one pair of next year's Dynastars I've seen being ridden I watched the edge rip out off, and they were decently new skis. Maybe it was a fluke, but from that experience I would think that the edges were jsut as shitty as before, changed or not changed.
 
why does it matter? ive seen alot of your posts around, and apparently your opinion matters more cuz you "were there". while it would be nice, he has a good point, so it doesnt matter.
 
i SO agree with the 30 bucks to make a ski thing, as much as i think 9thward is dope, i think that was a huge ass oxymoron right there. i mean seriously, you can't go around talking shit on other companies for selling skis that are 'expensive' when yours in fact, are the most expensive ones! i agree with horsey, that was quite possibly the worst interview thing known to man and just brought 9thwards name into the ground. good job campbell, you just lost even MORE of the little respect the skiing world already had for your company. i swear to god, the only person i respect on that team is cosco, the guy keeps it real. i know he'll be on here defending his company in a proper way, unlike max peters who will come in here and say, " FUCK YOU GUYS NINTHWARD IS THE DOPE SHIT!". good luck cosco.
 
I can't say from expierence, I'm only talking about things said at SIA and pre-production and such...and only the TM's have the reinforced edge next year, to state that fact too. I was just saying...his comment on "junior edges" and such I can't really fathom.
 
I think what he was saying with the "$30 to make a pair of skis" comment was saying that because the big companies use cheap labor, their skis only cost $30, whereas he doesnt use cheap labor so they cost more to make.

I agree with most of what you said though
 
i agree that cosco is a good guy, from what i see on NS, ive nevr met him, but i dont think that those other kids on the team will come on here and be that immature, and even if they do, they are young, and there isnt much argument against horsey right now, so its only natural to defend what you love, and they love 9 for a reason.
 
I gotta go now, I can't wait to see this explode by the time I get home tonight...I'll join back in then.
 
Like any industry, skiing is driven by it’s consumers, do you think the average young skier recognizes the power of the decisions he or she makes when walking into a ski shop and buying something?

No. I feel like people don’t acknowledge or use their buying power to its fullest extent. When a consumer selects one brand over another, it makes a big difference. If consumers only support those brands which support us, our industry will grow, but, if we choose to be indifferent about what we support, we will have a hard time to grow our sport the right way. We’ll have racing companies telling us what is important. Consumers have an amazing power, and it is their buying power which makes a big difference. I’m not only talking about skiing products. Think about when you buy groceries. If we support local industry, farmers in our community will continue to be a fundamental part of our society. But, if we just buy the cheapest products on the shelves, like most of us do, with no concern for the implications of who we support, all of our products will come from a farmer a million miles away who has no concern or interest in our community. And like we see, localized farming has almost been eliminated from our marketplace. Now rather than people working for themselves on their own land, they are working for Dairyland as a wage laborer, while Dairyland pollutes the land. No one cares what a brand represents or does; it’s just the bottom line. The only things consumers are looking for is lower costs. This would be negated if we supported local industry. The same goes for the ski industry.

-Anthony Boronowski in cream.. you wanna adress that as well? I think it ties in very nicely, so go ahead and hate on him well your at it.
 
Hahaha, I knew this one was coming. Anthony seems to be talking more about the direct power of the kid buying skis, and their effect on how the market plays out. To me it seems like a different argument, one I agree more heavily sided with Anthony on.
 
he is saying the same thing but in a different way. buy from the core companies and 'keep the money within our niche'. Campbell is much more agressive and blunt with what he is saying, but it's the same message.
 
To add on....I'm riding Armada and Line next year, and possible k2...I'm all for the more independent companies to step up and take the charge, I just don't agree with the not-so-true-stuff, or at least well-backed with good information stuff Campbell was saying. His stuff was way more generalized about freeskiing in general, not just the buying power young kids have on independent verus large name freeskiing, like Anthony stated.
 
But that "aggression" seems to be carrying over as unbacked, seemingly untrue statements pushing for "core companies". Maybe the messages are similar, but they both took different approaches. Anthony is down for buying core, keeping freeskiing within freeskiing, and supporting and believing in what be believes in...Campbell just seems to be pushing Ninthward, and raggin on everyone else, helping or hurting the indusrty....

Oh, and Melvs I love you.
 
Except Anthony doesnt go and attack people with questionable information. He just sticks to basic facts and that is what makes him come accross as less of an angry man and more of an intelligent man
 
And from Anthony "And like we see, localized farming has almost been eliminated from our marketplace. Now rather than people working for themselves on their own land, they are working for Dairyland as a wage laborer, while Dairyland pollutes the land. No one cares what a brand represents or does; it’s just the bottom line."

I do believe, if we are going to draw similarties from farming freeskiing...larger companies and more core independent companies can co-exist together in the same market place, as Anthony did say....it's more competition, which is nothing but healthy for the industry. If we have such faith in the independents, as I do, then they will make a better product, and contrary to Anthony, really care what brand we buy from. I know I care where I buy my skis from, and which brands I end up putting my money into...
 
Yup, what I was saying...There is a difference between providing opinion and prespective, and blantly attacking and trashing a competitor was "questionable information".
 
Ha, okay. I'm really going home now...we'll pick this up later...I'm excited! Healthy, friendly, good, deep discussion on NS!
 
not to take this too off topic, but if we use the past/present of the snowboarding industry as a lense in which we can see the future of skiing, large corporations do not seem like something we need to abolish, but embrace. burton is easily the best thing that happened to snowboarding in financial/PR sense. i see kids who have never ridden a snowboard in their life rocking burton fitted caps, analog jackets, they are a key reason why snowboarding is big. keeping skiing to the core companys may allow for more reasonable pricing, but i think will hinder exposure, which in turn lowers financial stability, which can in turn slow the progression of skiing through product. Alot of money poured into big corporations can go into R&D, like what was said about salomons boots. No other company has the capability money-wise to safely do that. Look what happened to LINE when the binding was a flop, they took a big hit. If the SPK boot sucks all kinds of ass, im sure salomon wont have to move for lower production costs. and im not hating on line, they are by far my favorite company, it was just an example.
 
ok, so some of Campbell's claims are questionable and I can understand people doubting that, but the basic message is the important part, and I think people need to realize that.
 
Honestly I don't see why it is such a huge deal. You say "core companies this, core companies that" but if they are so "Hardcore" where were they in the last 20 years of ski progression? Oh I guess the uncore companies covered that then? Skiing like we have it today was brought to you by K2 and Rossy and all the other older companies. Armada? Has done prety much zilch....yet. Let them make thier way like everyone else did.
 
I'm not going to take a side on this one, and I'm not going to defend some of Ninthward's screw-ups, but I would like to point out a few facts that might contribute to the topic, the first being that at least Campbell signs his name when he starts talking shit.

Secondly, I wouldn't call that article "the single dumbest interview to date in the history of our sport." That interview would probably be Liam Downey or Emil Coty's (can't remember which) profile in Freeze a few years back. (Also note: an article written by one author is not called an interview. An interview is when one person asks questions, and another person answers.)

When Campbell talks about advertising and magazines, I don't think he's trying to refute the fact that advertising works. I do think that he's expressing discontent with the exorbitant advertising rates that many magazines charge, rates that are difficult for a small company like Ninthward to meet. It's not an easy decision when a core company owner has to choose whether to spend $50,000 for a season's worth of ads in a mag, or channel all that cash into actually producing skis. And personally, I'm not sure I buy into this "well-known fact in the marketing world" being all that helpful to the sport of skiing anyway, marketing mostly being just another function of the "industry of cool" that tells you how to dress, how to act, who to look up to, and (most importantly, of course) where to buy your shit. A huge marketing department may ensure that a company is selling more than anyone else, but only after channeling all that money into something that really doesn't have anything to do with actually producing quality goods (Unless you want to get a bit deeper, and say that unless it weren't for the marketing driving sales, the company wouldn't HAVE any money to produce goods in the first place, an argument that makes the assumption that mass marketing is the ONLY way for a company to extend its name and reputation). So anyway, I won't argue against the fact that "advertising is effective," but I will suggest that advertising a good and producing a good are two entirely different businesses.

As far as larger companies being stoked on what smaller companies like Ninthward, Line, 4FRNT, Armada, Liberty etc. are doing, I wouldn't make that vast generalization. God knows they wouldn't be so stoked about it if core companies started taking their business. As it is though, I agree that most anyone with a brain is stoked to see skiing growing, because even in a purely money-grubbing sense, if core companies are springing up as a result of the demands of a new market, the larger corporations are going to benefiting from the growth of that new market that much more.

On purely a side note, I'd like to add that the articles and interviews in Freeskier and Ski Time on Ninthward were not paid advertising, they were actual journalistic endeavors to communicate information about a growing new company. I know, it's not often that the words "journalism" and "Freeskier" are used in the same sentence, but it's true, and I know it because I pitched the idea and did the interview myself.
 
burton started as a core company, while ski companies like salomon tried to make boards, burton (a core company) won. Burton made lots of money and put it all into snowbaording, while the ski corps took it and put it elsewhere.
 
Shot in the dark, but I'm going to guess this thread was started by Ryan Schmies... just a guess.

I don't support Ninthward. I have no plans to ride their product. I strongly suspect the "commitment to quality" stressed in this article is either undermined by incompetence on the part of company management, or, more likely given their track record, a sham. But Campbell is right about more than a few things. He's wrong about a few things, too, but as I said to Simon yesterday, when you're making aggressively controversial statements about the industry, being right more often than wrong is in my experience something of a victory.

I could go over what I agreed and disagreed with in the article, but everyone can decide that for themselves. Content isn't what I'm worried about here, you can argue it to your heart's content. Upon my first reading Campbell's words, I thought to myself, maybe our obsession about what's good for the sport, what's good for progression, can actually be productive somehow if kids start caring about the economics of it, the behind-the-hype stuff that everyone wants to claim they understand on this site to look like they're insiders or whatever. Well, here's some insight. Read between the lines because the guy clearly is self-promoting. But agree or disagree, think about the issues brought up here.

By the way, he didn't "buy" space in this one. If Dave didn't think what Campbell had to say was something that should be heard, it wouldn't have been in there, logo at the bottom or not.
 
tell me if im wrong, but you are sayingthe basic message is that we as consumers are not using our buying power in the best way possible, keeping money in core companies? if so, then i agree, in an ideal setting where these core companies can thrive and provide to us as much as corporations do, but honestly, in real world notions, there is no way to keep kids from buying what they want, no matter the cost. this is where companies have to step up and make their product more desireable than the mainstream. its rediculous to ask, really, becuase huge companies like salomon with top riders like dumont, who every skier kid wants to be whent they grow up, coming out with their own pro model, is tough to beat. the only way to really win this is to create unimaginable product, and to somehow educate the market on how to support what is right. but really, in a sport so driven by high-income families (once again not hating, just stating) who are able to give their kids whatever they want, they kids are gunna pick what they like best, and the dumont pro model is the definiton of the type of obstacle standing in the way of companies like ninthward and such to be taking over. I also think that ninthwards decision to rep the gangsta put a lock on the door between their current and prospective markets, its hard to convert people to hate or love such a strong image if they have already decided one way or another. now they have diehard customers and diehard haters. with something so extreme, there is very little grey area.
 
your last post is more or less the message, as idealisitc as it sounds it NEEDS to happen. I can't type out everything that is in my head on the subject, but the corporations don't put the money into our industry that they get out of it, in essence draining money from us. the top pros will go where the money is and I don't blame them, the thing is the core companies need to get this money so they can offer the contracts that other pros have. look at the snowboard industry, the origanal core companies won out and now have the ability to control the industry, instead of ski companies like salomon doing it. burton is 100% snowboarding and it has been a huge help for the industry...
 
that is a good point. this also puts less weight on the consumers shoulders, and more on the companies. I see what you are saying, we have to pick out which companies do the right thing with the money we put into them, but it would also be alot nicer if companies like salomon decided to put more money back into skiing. I think there is more of a chance of a movement pushing larger companies to bring money to us than for us to build up "the new burton".
 
Agreed. I feel like I was being really one sided and almost hypocritical, but I just want to clear it up. The stuff campbell was saying BRINGS UP more important issues, of which I already stated my peace on(riding independent companies, supporting them, etc..) but personally I don't agree with the stuff he was saying....Claiming he is "self promoting is completly right"....Anyways, this is really great to see. From the good discussion here to people like I said earlier, caring about where their money goes and what they support and put their money into. It's good to see people getting educated on it all. I know I am.
 
true that, there hasnt been any typical "shut up noob" comments. although all the little kiddies are at school, and i expect this thread to lose some integrity around 3pm.
 
Dammit... I can't believe someone fucking brought this issue up.... won't it ever go away?

Ethan, I'm just going to point out one thing here. Ninthward CHOSE to spend their ad dollars on magazines.

NS offers the most competitively priced advertising in the world of skiing. Our ads for 6 months cost WAY less than a single page of magazine ads.

I guess we're just not core enough to be considered an independant company.

Ninthward decided to go with Freeskier, who was obviously much more worth their time.
 
Mm hello Dougy, I almost just send you a PM saying, where the hell are you in this argument. Get in here! Regardless, here you are. Hi.

The case of NS Adversiting v. Ninthward 2005/2006 will never go away haha. It will always be remebered.

And about them spending their money on ad's, as you said, it WAS their choice.
 
That's not even competitively priced, it's an entirely different ball park, probably owing to the fact that it's a different medium... but it does seem a tad hypocritical, doesn't it. From what I see, Ninthward's marketing strategy seems to be... um... running OTP.
 
On the topic of advertising on NS, and Ninthward's advertising campaign/technique, yes. He and kamikaze.

Overall, on the other topics...lot's of good discussion, imput, and perspective. You can't not know what you're talking about when it comes to your own opinions on your favorite sport and industry, and the things happening inside of it.
 
The real problem is that a lot of companies don't believe in internet advertising. We have numbers to prove it, studies on effectiveness, and yet still very few companies jump onboard.

The biggest reason that our ads can be really cheap, is we simply have to keep the site running. We're not putting out a magazine that costs millions to produce, so we can turn that savings around to the companies who want to advertise, and eventually to the customer as companies can spend less on their ads.

We're not greedy, and don't gouge pricing to make mad bank. We simply take enough to get by and keep the company going.

When we make too much money, we always try to give back. That was why we handed out $1,000 in cash at the d-jam. Advertisers supported us, and you guys took the hit by having to look at ads. Instead of cashing in on the revenue, and pocketing the money, we handed it out to our members.

Oh, and on a side note, that was really fun to do, and watch out 'cause we're going to do it again. :)
 
no, im sorry but your wrong. the edges on the junior TMs and the TMs are the same, and they havent even used new edges, they just reinforced thier current tiny race edges. Yes they do use the same materials and edges on thier skis because they by them in such bulk, thats why TM's have race edges in the first place, look at a piece of ripped out TM edge and compare it to a piece of ripped out fujative edge. I have both. From new TM's and old TM's, they are thin tiny race edges and i cant see reinforcing them helping very much.
 
Thanks man, I didn't know that...I though the got a thicker edge and a reinforced one this year too. My mistake. Still, LilHorsey_2 did open up some very interesting points on what Campbell said.
 
The thing is, people like Campbell (and I'm not even trying to snipe here, he's just the example on hand) can bitch and moan about needing proof, evidence, in the form of studies and numbers to back up ad costs, and then can dismiss those studies as bullshit (which they are, no statistic or survey or what have can conclusively tie ad $ to sales $).

The mag ad/internet ad thing isn't even a discussion; they're totally different animals obviously. The Liberty ad is always over there, whereas a magazine ad is a one page deal, but it's not like every time you open a thread on NS you see Tosh greasing a PC rail. The impact is different. WHich is more effective? Who's to say, really. Stuides or no studies, there will always be intangibles... does company X get more play on the forums when they're sponsoring the site? Yes. They also seem to get less negative press from the members, fewer hate threads or what have you, and in some measure more supportive ones. Does that impact sales? Probably. Could you quantify e-opinion in a study? I seriously doubt it.

It comes down to what you (hypothetical you) as the head of a company (or the guy in charge of such things) believes. If you think internet ads are going to work, go for it. If you think mag ads will be worth it, go for those. Studies, in the end, aren't even the remotest guarantee of anything. You make business decisions based on your impressions of what will work best for you, and to the degree success follows (not just in the form of money, people get into business, especially in this industry, for other reasons than $), you've done a good job running your company.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top