Bush Veto's anti torture law

he is a idiot, he doesnt relise that who ever (obama, clinton, mccain) becomes president will sign this bill. If he however wants to destroy his poll numbers even more and help the democrats in the fall its fine by me.
 
While I don't really agree with Torture, i think in some aspects it can be a necessary course of action. Looking at the greatest good for the greatest amount of people, (pretty utilitarian I know..) sometimes torturing one informed individual to protect countless others is the only way.
 
im glad he vetoed that...they are prisoners of war. What do u think happens to Americans who are prisoners of war to loonies who capture us. U do remember the head cutting off video don't you?
 
I def see what you're saying (coming from a strong liberal). At the same time, we looked at this in school last year using utilitarian, kantian,, etc. and NEVER came to a conclusion, so its a reallly complex issue with a bunch of "special case" scenarios
 
here's the problem with that...

#1 what if the guy doesn't really have the answers to the questions... they'll be torturing him for nothing.

#2 a lot of these terrorists are hardened radicals. whatever the U.S. can do to them, I'm sure they've had worse. In most cases, torture is designed to be grueling and unbearable. You don't just sit there and torture someone for 15 minutes, they cry, spit out the answer and you call it a day. Over in china they lock them up and torture them so hard that the pain is so bad they can't even sleep at night. then they eventually go insane, and spit out the answer. You'll never see anything like that here.

 
I realize how gruesome it can be, and I've even had an ethics class in which we discussed this topic. From there, I formulated my opinion and stand by it. There are pros and cons to this to be sure.
 
You're right, we send our victims to other countries for extraordinary rendition. Far be it from us to carry out the dirty work within our own country.

How can you condone torture in any form. This isn't fucking 24 where there's a ticking time bomb. Do you really think the fate of the earth rests on extracting one piece of information from one person? If they actually do spit out something important, it'll be in the middle of so much useless gibberish we'll probably miss it anyways. Do you really believe we have the restraint to only torture in the most dire of situations? We sure as fuck don't and as a result we have no ground to stand on when our soldiers are tortured. How can we be representative of freedom and justice when torture is allowed at the total discretion of a few individuals who will never have to answer for their decisions.
 
You don't know that this isn't 24. For all we know crazy shit like that actually does go on. Its unlikely but still possible. Its not like some bill matters anyway. Torture will always be used to get information out of people whether its legal or not.
 
Just wait till you're an innocent person who gets caught in this torture shit...
 
He probably vetoed the bill since those laws already exist. They are called the Laws of Armed Conflict as enforced by the United States and an assortment of international treaties. Therefore, that bill is retarded.
 
Not by the US military, maybe some crazy secret agent shit we don't know about, but the military is incredibly strict on that. You remember the Abu Ghraib incidents right? The Brigadier General in command of that facility was court martialed and discharged as well as the airmen involved. They are all in prison still I believe.
 
Big deal...they make a stink like that and fire one guy to make the issue go away. Like jason said, its going to happen whether people like it or not
 
Yeah, AFTER the press found out and the public saw the pictures...

The Geneva convention has been raped over and over again by the US, so I dont know what you are talking about.

And for the kid who said we should torture because they do it to us, should we really set such a shitty example? We are a completely modernized and in most ways humane country, should we really go to such medieval lengths?
 
Wow spoon guy, I think you're taking the typical NSer a little too seriously. Your probably e-screaming a ten year old.
 
Supposedly he vetoed the law because if potential torture victims know there's a law that exists that says they can't be tortured they won't give us the information we are looking for.

This doesn't mean I agree with the decision or support president bushhole, just repeating what I heard.

But again, stick a dick in my ear, fuck what i heard... might be false.
 
Torture being legal to only "help" save people's lives is just opening the door for abuse. It's like the Patriot act. I don't know if the original intentions with it were good, but it sure as hell opened the doors for a lot of abuse, and it would be the same story with torture. I don't see how Bush could EVER publicly condone torturing like he did by vetoing that bill.

I'm going to laugh when my kids learn in U.S. history in 20 some years when Bush is depicted as one of the worst presidents ever.
 
because right after 9-11 the suspended Habeus Corpus and imprisoned over 100000 people. If you do ANYTHING suspicious the power grab that is the patriot act allows the Executive (Bush) to go right around the constitution and imprison and torture you, giving you no justification or trial.

It's unethical. just plain wrong.
 
toronto

lockton court.

you have 7 houses to choose from. choose the right one.

protip: there is a van in the driveway.

see you soon.
 
I think most people here (I'd like to think everyone) would completely agree with you; torture is absolutely disgusting and repulsive. However, the point Jason and Ryno made still stand; it's not going to stop just because some piece of paper becomes a law. Some low life's with fucked up moral values and ethical systems will simply do it illegally.
 
Precisely. Do you guys really think that in the event of a 24 type situation the fact that torture is illegal will prevent it from happening? Hell no it won't. Then why the fuck should we pass a bill allowing it in lesser situations?
 
I guess that depends what your opinion of torture is. It's standard practice to "soften up" prisoners by putting them in cargo containers in the sun, forcing them to remain standing and not allowing them to lean against the walls. The temperatures rise to 135-145 degrees and they are denied any food and water. After a day or more of that the prisoners are interrogated, during which they are beaten in discreet places, and then their injuries are tended to by military officers so the abuse is not reported to the Red Cross. This was a well-known procedure that was reported higher up many times prior to the Abu Ghraib scandal. Sounds pretty torturous to me.

I read a great article the other day interviewing a veteran who worked as a prison guard at Abu Ghraib. In addition to all those other things, he said that soldiers would often ask him to take a prisoner away just to "have a little fun" as long as they returned them in half-decent (ha) shape. Let me see if I can find it online.

But yeah, even a little torture is too common of a practice and we do a lot more than a "little" torturing.
 
I challenge anyone who thinks torture should be acceptable to read this and then say that A. it is legitimate, and B. that it is not widespread.

www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/03/am-i-a-torturer.html
 
State sanctioned torture is a clear violation of international law for which state officials can and should be tried and sentenced in any UN member state on the planet. The fact that this will not occur is a political decision.

Next january can't come soon enough.
 
It means that something that is inherently morally wrong (say for instance... torture?) can never be politically right.
 
i prefer performing the chinese water torture techniques. slow agonizing pain that leads to a whole in the skull after many months of a single drop of water repeatedly being dropped on the same place of your forehead.
 
The bill was to ban water boarding, not torture in general. I guess Bush doesn't feel that this is considered torture...
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/03/11/national/main3927440.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_3927440

image3441764g.jpg

 
If we've CONVICTED others of war crimes for using this exact technique, hwo the FUCK can it be ok??? HMM? I hope to god that the people responsible for this in our country are charged and convicted of war crimes and are held accountable, because it's fucking despicable and I'm ashamed to be an American citizen when the government does shit like this.

"

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for

waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his

captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces

officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the

Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was

given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when

the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like

I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."

Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo

War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government

elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing

Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which

their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call

waterboarding.

"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/02/AR2007110201170.html
 
Even if he signed the bill some dire circumstance would come up and people would just try to be stealthy about it. No bill will stop America from torturing anyone who risks 'national security.' I think it is terrible and never even be used even as a last resort. My english class read these articles today and I thought they were relevent to this.

http://www.pbs.org/childofcamp/history/index.html

Following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, President Franklin D. Roosevelt issued Executive Order 9066, which permitted the military to circumvent the constitutional safeguards of American citizens in the name of national defense.The order set into motion the exclusion from certain areas, and the evacuation and mass incarceration of 120,000 persons of Japanese ancestry living on the West Coast, most of whom were U.S. citizens or legal permanent resident aliens. These Japanese Americans, half of whom were children, were incarcerated for up to 4 years, without due process of law or any factual basis, in bleak, remote camps surrounded by barbed wire and armed guards.They were forced to evacuate their homes and leave their jobs; in some cases family members were separated and put into different camps. President Roosevelt himself called the 10 facilities "concentration camps."Some Japanese Americans died in the camps due to inadequate medical care and the emotional stresses they encountered. Several were killed by military guards posted for allegedly resisting orders.At the time, Executive Order 9066 was justified as a "military necessity" to protect against domestic espionage and sabotage. However, it was later documented that "our government had in its possession proof that not one Japanese American, citizen or not, had engaged in espionage, not one had committed any act of sabotage." (Michi Weglyn, 1976).Rather, the causes for this unprecedented action in American history, according to the Commission on Wartime Relocation and Internment of Civilians, "were motivated largely by racial prejudice, wartime hysteria, and a failure of political leadership."

Almost 50 years later, through the efforts of leaders and advocates of the Japanese American community, Congress passed the Civil Liberties Act of 1988. Popularly known as the Japanese American Redress Bill, this act acknowledged that "a grave injustice was done" and mandated Congress to pay each victim of internment $20,000 in reparations.

The reparations were sent with a signed apology from the President of the United States on behalf of the American people. The period for reparations ended in August of 1998.Despite this redress, the mental and physical health impacts of the trauma of the internment experience continue to affect tens of thousands of Japanese Americans. Health studies have shown a 2 times greater incidence of heart disease and premature death among former internees, compared to noninterned Japanese Americans.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4703136



It came to be called the Long Walk -- in the 1860s, more than 10,000 Navajos and Mescalero Apaches were forcibly marched to a desolate reservation in eastern New Mexico called Bosque Redondo. Nearly one-third of those interned there died of disease, exposure and hunger, held captive by the U.S. Army.

A new memorial center dedicated to remembering the tragedy that almost wiped out the Navajo Nation opened June 4 in New Mexico. The great-great grandsons and granddaughters of the survivors of the Long Walk were there to pay homage, to mourn the dead and celebrate the tribe's ultimate survival.

The Long Walk was largely ignored by a nation embroiled in the Civil War. Beginning in 1863, Gen. James Henry Carleton, commander of New Mexico Territory, decided to solve, once and for all, the "Navajo problem." Some Indians escape the brutal roundup in the Four Corners area, but most surrender.

Ragged queues of defeated Navajos left in batches from Ft. Defiance, Ariz. Men, women, children and the elderly walked 450 miles, in frigid winter and baking summer. Some drowned crossing the Rio Grande. Stragglers were shot and left behind.

Their destination was Fort Sumner and a camp called Bosque Redondo -- 40 square miles of shortgrass prairie and thorn desert, bisected by the Pecos River in New Mexico. The Navajo, and a smaller number of Apache, lived in crude shelters improvised from branches and tattered canvas. Pneumonia, dysentery and smallpox devastated their numbers.

After four years at Bosque Redondo, the Army considered it a failed experiment and escorted the survivors back to their homeland -- but only after an estimated 2,380 people died. But times have definitely changed: While it was the U.S. Army that almost obliterated the Navajo Nation, it was the Department of Defense that contributed most of the funds to build the Bosque Redondo Memorial.

We've torture our own people without evidence.
 
Right, okay I see what your saying. What I was trying to say is that from my experience, the percentage of people in the military who are actually like that is extremely small. It sucks that they are the ones we see on the news, because it makes us all look bad.
 
And I, like most people, don't know what the CIA actually does so I can't really give my two cents on that.
 
wow thats fuckin dumb. recently, the UN tried to search the US prsion camps in IRAQ and US refused to let them in...



why you might ask?
 
probably because we're commiting all sorts of war crimes and doing illegal shit 'in the name of national securtiy'

I'm sick of ANYONE thinking this is in any way about national securtiy, that's a load of shit. It's for the bettering of the elite rich of this country. Look at any civilization in history and you'll see this exact thing happen time and time again. I don't know how it's not blindingly obvious to everyone what is really going on.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top