Bode Miller rides Full Tilt

14259567:Damian_Sanders said:
Not trying. Am.
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14259557:tomPietrowski said:
Well out of the box comfort is a big priority for a stock liner so there's that. But again if you like the intuition that's great, the FT liners are working really well for many other people.
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This is key and makes total sense. Can you imagine Intuition HD liners stock in anyones off the shelf boot? Nobody would buy it since trying it on in the shop would be agony.

Tom or Jason, maybe you can add some further insight here (and by that I mean please tell me if you disagree with my take). Many ask about the differences between the Soul and Original shell and I recently spent a very long time at my local shop going over a First Chair boot because I was having issues with my Original shell and wanted to see if it really was just "a little more room in the toe box" on the Soul shell.

I came away knowing that the Soul shell might look a lot like the Original, but there is nothing similar in the fit. The Soul may have had more room in the toes, it was tough for me to tell, but it definitely had more room in the instep and throat and it was longer internally. The Soul shell is just way roomier everywhere.
 
14259675:FlimFlamVanHam said:
This is key and makes total sense. Can you imagine Intuition HD liners stock in anyones off the shelf boot? Nobody would buy it since trying it on in the shop would be agony.

Tom or Jason, maybe you can add some further insight here (and by that I mean please tell me if you disagree with my take). Many ask about the differences between the Soul and Original shell and I recently spent a very long time at my local shop going over a First Chair boot because I was having issues with my Original shell and wanted to see if it really was just "a little more room in the toe box" on the Soul shell.

I came away knowing that the Soul shell might look a lot like the Original, but there is nothing similar in the fit. The Soul may have had more room in the toes, it was tough for me to tell, but it definitely had more room in the instep and throat and it was longer internally. The Soul shell is just way roomier everywhere.
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Well no shit, that's why Full Tilt sells a neutered Intuition liner. But they shouldn't go around claiming it's equivalent to a full Intuition liner, because it's not. Raichle and Kneissl sold Thermoflex liners in the Flexon for several years that needed to be heat fitted and it probably contributed to their lack of commercial success.

I've been skiing custom liners since 1994, starting with custom injected silicone battle axes in Technica TNT AVS. Don't tell me Full Tilt liners are equivalent to an Intuition, if you do you're a liar or a moron.

I'm not 100% sold that I should build up my 2015 Seth's which are the soul shell, might end up just doing my 6th pair of Original Raichle/Kneissl/FT. I've got a pair of new 20th Anniversary Flexons which could be put into use, but I'm worried the plastic might not hold up due to colored plastic UV/age failure. I could strip all buckle parts and uppers off the Seths...hummm.

Flexons.jpg


**This post was edited on Mar 15th 2021 at 9:12:52pm

**This post was edited on Mar 15th 2021 at 9:13:53pm

**This post was edited on Mar 15th 2021 at 9:15:09pm
 
14259563:Damian_Sanders said:
Am I supposed to be impressed? What are you fucking 5 years old?

Don't even get me started on how much shit K2's suck.

**This post was edited on Mar 15th 2021 at 4:33:33pm
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U seem like an angry person r u okay brother ?
 
Bootfitter here.

I only sell full tilts to cool people. I don't even put them on feet unless the client is real cool.
 
I like where this thread is going. Never underestimate the compassion of a boot fitter about foam and his hatred towards plastic shoes.
 
14259732:Damian_Sanders said:
Well no shit, that's why Full Tilt sells a neutered Intuition liner. But they shouldn't go around claiming it's equivalent to a full Intuition liner, because it's not. Raichle and Kneissl sold Thermoflex liners in the Flexon for several years that needed to be heat fitted and it probably contributed to their lack of commercial success.

I've been skiing custom liners since 1994, starting with custom injected silicone battle axes in Technica TNT AVS. Don't tell me Full Tilt liners are equivalent to an Intuition, if you do you're a liar or a moron.

I'm not 100% sold that I should build up my 2015 Seth's which are the soul shell, might end up just doing my 6th pair of Original Raichle/Kneissl/FT. I've got a pair of new 20th Anniversary Flexons which could be put into use, but I'm worried the plastic might not hold up due to colored plastic UV/age failure. I could strip all buckle parts and uppers off the Seths...hummm.
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If you're lucky enough to have skinny LV feet that fit them, you should be in the Original. You know this though. The Soul is way too roomy for me but was a great move by FT because, really, if you ever have to undo any buckle on your Original during your entire day of skiing, they don't fit you and they are low volume enough that I do not believe they truly fit many. The Soul shell would fit far more feet. And of course the Evolution shell was also a great move (however it differs greatly to the Original and Soul and I'm not talking about in volume, buckles, and appearance: there's a hard stop in that rear cuff that is absent on the Soul and Original)

Those Thermoflex liners were very good. I had that exact same Flexon with that very same liner. i actually sold them on TGR about 10 yrs ago. I'd ski those. You won't have a problem with the plastic. There's plastic shit washing up on shore that has spent decades in the saltwater and sun that's still in great shape. Your prized Flexons should be fine. Was stupid of me to sell them in hindsight but was sizing down my shell. And now, all this time later, have gone back to the 310bsl (the black toes of from my 301's had gotten unbearable).

I've fucked around with Flexons/FT's and liners for years now. It's actually concerning how obsessed I am with it. Along the way and recently I picked up a set of used once PW+'s because the price was right and my thinking was that since these are made out of even thicker foam (I'm actually not sure if they still are: Intuition is saying only the cuff, but I find that hard to believe and they feel much firmer, in hand, than a PW through the forefoot) they would compress to an even firmer mold of goodness. The PW+'s I have are def way beefier than a standard PW. And they mold exactly as I thought they would: super firm all around. Too firm, in fact. You'll be looking for a softer tongue than you are used to to use these, but they should last longer and provide even better support than a standard PW.

And as an aside and only because you're DS, back in the 90's me and my 2 main riding buddies wore hard boots on plates with slack angles. Those who knew, knew. But it was very few of us.
 
14259582:animator said:
You’re like a really lame, uneducated, shitty version of Dolan, but at least Dolan knows what he’s talking about
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Dolan absolutely doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about more often than not.
 
14260148:FlimFlamVanHam said:
If you're lucky enough to have skinny LV feet that fit them, you should be in the Original. You know this though. The Soul is way too roomy for me but was a great move by FT because, really, if you ever have to undo any buckle on your Original during your entire day of skiing, they don't fit you and they are low volume enough that I do not believe they truly fit many. The Soul shell would fit far more feet. And of course the Evolution shell was also a great move (however it differs greatly to the Original and Soul and I'm not talking about in volume, buckles, and appearance: there's a hard stop in that rear cuff that is absent on the Soul and Original)

Those Thermoflex liners were very good. I had that exact same Flexon with that very same liner. i actually sold them on TGR about 10 yrs ago. I'd ski those. You won't have a problem with the plastic. There's plastic shit washing up on shore that has spent decades in the saltwater and sun that's still in great shape. Your prized Flexons should be fine. Was stupid of me to sell them in hindsight but was sizing down my shell. And now, all this time later, have gone back to the 310bsl (the black toes of from my 301's had gotten unbearable).

I've fucked around with Flexons/FT's and liners for years now. It's actually concerning how obsessed I am with it. Along the way and recently I picked up a set of used once PW+'s because the price was right and my thinking was that since these are made out of even thicker foam (I'm actually not sure if they still are: Intuition is saying only the cuff, but I find that hard to believe and they feel much firmer, in hand, than a PW through the forefoot) they would compress to an even firmer mold of goodness. The PW+'s I have are def way beefier than a standard PW. And they mold exactly as I thought they would: super firm all around. Too firm, in fact. You'll be looking for a softer tongue than you are used to to use these, but they should last longer and provide even better support than a standard PW.

And as an aside and only because you're DS, back in the 90's me and my 2 main riding buddies wore hard boots on plates with slack angles. Those who knew, knew. But it was very few of us.
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Hey thanks. Flexons are one of the few boots that fit me well. I do unbuckle them every lift ride, most serious skiers I know unbuckle their boots and I crank the shit out of mine.

I've broken one Flexon-T heel, one rear cuff and one 12-flex world cup race tongue and do not find the plastic particularly trustworthy, though I did ski another pair of 20th anniversary lowers and cuffs from 2010-2014 roughly. Those aren't my boots pictured, the thermoflexes are long gone and I wouldn't ski them anyway, the three pair I've worn out broke down too fast and are not as good as the Intutions.

**This post was edited on Mar 16th 2021 at 1:30:14pm

**This post was edited on Mar 16th 2021 at 1:31:12pm
 
14260148:FlimFlamVanHam said:
If you're lucky enough to have skinny LV feet that fit them, you should be in the Original. You know this though. The Soul is way too roomy for me but was a great move by FT because, really, if you ever have to undo any buckle on your Original during your entire day of skiing, they don't fit you and they are low volume enough that I do not believe they truly fit many. The Soul shell would fit far more feet. And of course the Evolution shell was also a great move (however it differs greatly to the Original and Soul and I'm not talking about in volume, buckles, and appearance: there's a hard stop in that rear cuff that is absent on the Soul and Original)

Those Thermoflex liners were very good. I had that exact same Flexon with that very same liner. i actually sold them on TGR about 10 yrs ago. I'd ski those. You won't have a problem with the plastic. There's plastic shit washing up on shore that has spent decades in the saltwater and sun that's still in great shape. Your prized Flexons should be fine. Was stupid of me to sell them in hindsight but was sizing down my shell. And now, all this time later, have gone back to the 310bsl (the black toes of from my 301's had gotten unbearable).

I've fucked around with Flexons/FT's and liners for years now. It's actually concerning how obsessed I am with it. Along the way and recently I picked up a set of used once PW+'s because the price was right and my thinking was that since these are made out of even thicker foam (I'm actually not sure if they still are: Intuition is saying only the cuff, but I find that hard to believe and they feel much firmer, in hand, than a PW through the forefoot) they would compress to an even firmer mold of goodness. The PW+'s I have are def way beefier than a standard PW. And they mold exactly as I thought they would: super firm all around. Too firm, in fact. You'll be looking for a softer tongue than you are used to to use these, but they should last longer and provide even better support than a standard PW.

And as an aside and only because you're DS, back in the 90's me and my 2 main riding buddies wore hard boots on plates with slack angles. Those who knew, knew. But it was very few of us.
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99 last isn’t really low volume, 97 and below is
 
14260367:drifts said:
99 last isn’t really low volume, 97 and below is
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Last and volume are two different things. Last refers to the width at the widest point while volume refers to overall room. Last has a contribution to the overall volume but they are not the same. The Classic, in my opinion, would definitely be considered low volume while the Soul would be considered medium volume
 
14260373:animator said:
Last and volume are two different things. Last refers to the width at the widest point while volume refers to overall room. Last has a contribution to the overall volume but they are not the same. The Classic, in my opinion, would definitely be considered low volume while the Soul would be considered medium volume
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True I just don’t think the soul shell felt that low volume compared to other brands low volume boots when I tried them on
 
14260453:drifts said:
True I just don’t think the soul shell felt that low volume compared to other brands low volume boots when I tried them on
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Because the soul isn’t a low volume boot dude idk how else to explain it
 
14260455:FlimFlamVanHam said:
The Souls? they should feel big compared to any other brand's (that I can think of) low volume offering. Or did you mean the Original?
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classic or original I mean
 
14259289:Damian_Sanders said:
I've been in Flexons / FT's for almost 20 years, getting ready to build up a new pair (2015 Seths NIB) and came across this thread. Mods on current Konflicts - 10 Flex tongue size 28-29 on 25.0 boot, aftermarket intuition power wrap liner, rigid foam boot board from 80's flexon, rear extra tall spoiler made from 1/8" Delrin, cable spreaders to keep them from hanging up on buckles, diy power booster straps. IMHO they are set up like DH race boot, I can readily control a 218cm plated DH ski and various modern skis in the 190's.

Have been waiting for a 95mm plug of the classic lower.

**This post was edited on Mar 15th 2021 at 11:06:40am
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Damian, I would love to see some photos of your boots. I would also love a 95mm plug FT!

Following Bode's lead, I am currently building an FT Drop Kick for racing using a 25.5 with a 12 flex tongue and a ZipFit Gara liner. The shell is likely too wide so I will be c-clamping the shells in three places and baking in the oven. That has worked in the past with Langes.

Would also like to use a reverse buckle like the Ascendant and Kickster to prevent buckle boot out. I haven't decided yet on Booster straps, the boot board or another spoiler.

Does a rigid foam boot board help? I know that is the standard in my plug boots. Any suggestions for my project will be appreciated.

**This post was edited on Oct 23rd 2021 at 9:40:31pm
 
I used to love three piece boots until I got a proper pair of plug boots. Makes my old boots feel like a sloppy noodle. I'm sure never going back to three piece until I'm old and broken. tbh I do miss getting my foot in and out of my boot without excruciating pain but fuck it cuz performance
 
14336231:TJP said:
Damian, I would love to see some photos of your boots. I would also love a 95mm plug FT!

Following Bode's lead, I am currently building an FT Drop Kick for racing using a 25.5 with a 12 flex tongue and a ZipFit Gara liner. The shell is likely too wide so I will be c-clamping the shells in three places and baking in the oven. That has worked in the past with Langes.

Would also like to use a reverse buckle like the Ascendant and Kickster to prevent buckle boot out. I haven't decided yet on Booster straps, the boot board or another spoiler.

Does a rigid foam boot board help? I know that is the standard in my plug boots. Any suggestions for my project will be appreciated.

**This post was edited on Oct 23rd 2021 at 9:40:31pm
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This is basically exactly my setup, but I just use the FT rigid boot board with a cork footbed, and they seem fine. The one thing you really need to do with these boots is add support on the rear spoiler and maybe even the cuff. I have access to an autoclave and a engineer's sickness in my brain that wont let me rest until things are ~perfect~ so I went a little off the deep end and sleeved the spoiler/cuff in 8oz triax prepreg carbon.

Have not skied them yet but in theory, this should help the boot be a lot stiffer around the cuff. if that is a good thing or not, I am unsure. The concern is that they become a little too wood-y or harsh but with all of the forward flex coming from the tongue, the boot is just screaming for a carbon cuff. the big reason carbon boots have sucked in the past (dynafit tlt, which tbh is not awful for the intended use but generally is not a good-skiing boot) is that the upper has been connected to the lower via some sort of hard point (spine rivets, walk mode lever ETC) and had absolutely zero feel when they are in ski mode. On that theory, the FT should take this mod well but I'm not 100% convinced, as there is usually something that you don't think about when designing this stuff, and iteration is generally inevitable.

A part of the issue with the lateral flex on FT is the heel buckle placement that removes a lot of the critical material from the cuff. I am trying to think of a solution for this one (Maybe mount it to the pivot with and extra long cable?) so that I can correct that design with carbon cuff 2.0. obviously, a thicker plastic cuff with that mod would also work well but I think that may just be a little too on the edge of what is reasonably doable without access to a full boot-specific prototype facility and an entire redesign of the boot itself---the real trick is to connect the lower lateral part of the cuff on to the medial and upper part of the cuff, creating what is effectively a large oval at 45 degrees to flat to have that lateral stiffness. it is not possible with the current boot, although I imagine that the tooling to make a new cuff wouldn't be as expensive as a full redesign. I sort of feel like if you could get a boa tight enough with a criss-cross pattern it might be a super dope closure system for that boot.

Another thing I want to do is to either rivet the spoiler to the cuff or make a one-piece spoiler/cuff, to try and increase the lateral stiffness. that would be a pretty easy mod to test really.
 
14337083:AngryGramps said:
This is basically exactly my setup, but I just use the FT rigid boot board with a cork footbed, and they seem fine. The one thing you really need to do with these boots is add support on the rear spoiler and maybe even the cuff. I have access to an autoclave and a engineer's sickness in my brain that wont let me rest until things are ~perfect~ so I went a little off the deep end and sleeved the spoiler/cuff in 8oz triax prepreg carbon.

Have not skied them yet but in theory, this should help the boot be a lot stiffer around the cuff. if that is a good thing or not, I am unsure. The concern is that they become a little too wood-y or harsh but with all of the forward flex coming from the tongue, the boot is just screaming for a carbon cuff. the big reason carbon boots have sucked in the past (dynafit tlt, which tbh is not awful for the intended use but generally is not a good-skiing boot) is that the upper has been connected to the lower via some sort of hard point (spine rivets, walk mode lever ETC) and had absolutely zero feel when they are in ski mode. On that theory, the FT should take this mod well but I'm not 100% convinced, as there is usually something that you don't think about when designing this stuff, and iteration is generally inevitable.

A part of the issue with the lateral flex on FT is the heel buckle placement that removes a lot of the critical material from the cuff. I am trying to think of a solution for this one (Maybe mount it to the pivot with and extra long cable?) so that I can correct that design with carbon cuff 2.0. obviously, a thicker plastic cuff with that mod would also work well but I think that may just be a little too on the edge of what is reasonably doable without access to a full boot-specific prototype facility and an entire redesign of the boot itself---the real trick is to connect the lower lateral part of the cuff on to the medial and upper part of the cuff, creating what is effectively a large oval at 45 degrees to flat to have that lateral stiffness. it is not possible with the current boot, although I imagine that the tooling to make a new cuff wouldn't be as expensive as a full redesign. I sort of feel like if you could get a boa tight enough with a criss-cross pattern it might be a super dope closure system for that boot.

Another thing I want to do is to either rivet the spoiler to the cuff or make a one-piece spoiler/cuff, to try and increase the lateral stiffness. that would be a pretty easy mod to test really.
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AngryGramps: Thank you for your thoughtful reply. My first mods after getting a reasonable fit will be the rigid boot board and the reverse top buckle. Rebuilding the rear cuff and spoiler will have to wait.

Did you add a reverse top buckle? If you did some photos would be a big help. I am not sure the best way to add the strap holding the buckle. I will be contacting Full Tilt to see if they will sell the Ascendant strap as an after market part. If not I will fabricate a wrap under the boot strap similar to the older FT Booter model. What do you think?

My main motivation for this project is to stop me from getting dangerously launched to the inside of turns when the forward pressure rapidly increases causing the edge angle to rapidly increase another 10 to 15 degrees. This happens mainly in flat light when I cannot see ruts and moguls. This is the same issue as described by Bode in his recent podcast over on Blister.
https://blisterreview.com/podcasts/the-pros-gear-bode-miller-ep-163

**This post was edited on Oct 26th 2021 at 8:44:14pm
 
14229523:JLev said:
EXACTLY. This is why it's important for a boot fitter to keep an open mind offering more styles... including a 3-piece knowing every skiers will not fit best in only an overlap design.
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The last boot fit I ever did when I worked at Skirack in Burlington was to 65 year old frontside skier. I ended up selling him a pair of Descendants and he was so stoked. As a boot fitter who has fit hundreds of ski boots I know FT boots don't work for everybody but I would always press customers to try them if I felt they would work for their foot and so many people fell in love with them. However, the amount of 12-25 year old park skiers that came in wanting nothing but Full Tilts or came in because they ordered FT boots online because they thought they looked cool was overwhelming. There is a sizable group of young free skiers who have been buying FT boots for the wrong reason for years and NO ONE should buy boots without trying them on with a boot fitter.
 
I've started skiing Raichle/FT in '87. i always knew they had superior attributes in weight and flex, but it was interesting to hear Bode explain why they work better than a regular 4 buckle boot. I certainly don't have the technical expertise of a Bode Miller, but i probably have more hours in that shell than almost any skier in world history.
 
14337748:3mania said:
I've started skiing Raichle/FT in '87. i always knew they had superior attributes in weight and flex, but it was interesting to hear Bode explain why they work better than a regular 4 buckle boot. I certainly don't have the technical expertise of a Bode Miller, but i probably have more hours in that shell than almost any skier in world history.
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With all your hours in the Raichle/FT, what are the biggest durability issues? I have heard stripping the adjustment rack on the top buckle happens pretty often. Has that been a problem for you and how often have you had to replace them? Thanks,
 
14337890:TJP said:
With all your hours in the Raichle/FT, what are the biggest durability issues? I have heard stripping the adjustment rack on the top buckle happens pretty often. Has that been a problem for you and how often have you had to replace them? Thanks,
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I actually have had more issues with the bottom buckle stripping, but that usually happens when the buckle is undone and catches snow and eventually gets looser and looser then strips out.. I found if i cranked them down (esp the first buckle) and just got used to starting out with them fully cranked down, I got used to it and stopped having so many issues with that. The tighter you can keep them. the less movement in those ratchets and hence less stripping.
 
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