Better Ski Boot Company Survey

[why_not_jib]

What's up guys. I know I posted this same thing in Ski Gabber, but as part of a college project, I'm working on developing a new, more comfortable, easily customizable ski boot, and I'd like your input on it. This is a really quick survey and should only take about 5 minutes but would really help me out.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/9C5G6TQ

 

[hippystinx]

custom do it yourself at home foam liners. 200 bucks. If some one could get behind this and more fit pads being included with the ski boot upon purchase. 90% of the time it is easier to fill space in a ski boot than to try to create space.

 

[BrawnTrends]

I think the boots you're trying to invent already exist: Atomic Hawx Ultra series.

 

[Session]

custom do it yourself at home foam liners. 200 bucks. If some one could get behind this and more fit pads being included with the ski boot upon purchase. 90% of the time it is easier to fill space in a ski boot than to try to create space.

Or just work with a competent bootfitter.

 

[hippystinx]

I think the boots you're trying to invent already exist: Atomic Hawx Ultra series.

The liner in that ski boot is rated from the factory for on average 60-80 days of use. And I guarantee you will still get horrible heel lift and an uncompromising fit around the instep and forefoot without severely tightening buckles.

Or just work with a competent bootfitter.

a. not every one has access to a competent boot fitters. Ie iowa, pennsylvania, maryland, etc.

b. most competent boot fitters pay an arm an a leg for something that in my experience can very easily be accomplished by a competent person at home with things bought from lowes or home depot. For example custom surefoot ski boots 225 for the insole 420 for the liner and 300-700 for a good shell. Thats a 1100-1600 ski boot depending.

c. if two products were priced exactly the same one providing a general fit that lasted 80 days and the other was fully custom and lasted 300-400 days, which would you think would be the superior product.

d.c. Foot beds, everyone should be skiing on custom footbeds or orthotics. without a strong foundation the whole thing is shit.

 

[JibbaTheHutt]

The liner in that ski boot is rated from the factory for on average 60-80 days of use. And I guarantee you will still get horrible heel lift and an uncompromising fit around the instep and forefoot without severely tightening buckles.

a. not every one has access to a competent boot fitters. Ie iowa, pennsylvania, maryland, etc.

b. most competent boot fitters pay an arm an a leg for something that in my experience can very easily be accomplished by a competent person at home with things bought from lowes or home depot. For example custom surefoot ski boots 225 for the insole 420 for the liner and 300-700 for a good shell. Thats a 1100-1600 ski boot depending.

c. if two products were priced exactly the same one providing a general fit that lasted 80 days and the other was fully custom and lasted 300-400 days, which would you think would be the superior product.

d.c. Foot beds, everyone should be skiing on custom footbeds or orthotics. without a strong foundation the whole thing is shit.

You have quite obviously never worked with a bootfitter, saying it is easier to take away space in a boot than create space is so wildly incorrect its crazy. "everybody should be skiing on custom footbeds" a badly made footbed will cause just as many, if not more problems than no footbed at all, yet you seem to think that home fitting techniques are the way forward.

Foam liners work for very few people because of how snug of a fit they give, the average skier isn't looking for a high performance fit where they can barely wiggle their toes. Yes you can play around with the amount of catalyst you add but that takes experience to know how much to add for any given person, it is extremely unlikely that somebody trying to foam a set of boots for the first time will get it right. At the the end of the day we are seeing so much development from boot companies on the custom fit side of things it is becoming easier and easier to fit boots precisely without sacrificing comfort.

 

[onenerdykid]

The liner in that ski boot is rated from the factory for on average 60-80 days of use. And I guarantee you will still get horrible heel lift and an uncompromising fit around the instep and forefoot without severely tightening buckles.

a. not every one has access to a competent boot fitters. Ie iowa, pennsylvania, maryland, etc.

b. most competent boot fitters pay an arm an a leg for something that in my experience can very easily be accomplished by a competent person at home with things bought from lowes or home depot. For example custom surefoot ski boots 225 for the insole 420 for the liner and 300-700 for a good shell. Thats a 1100-1600 ski boot depending.

c. if two products were priced exactly the same one providing a general fit that lasted 80 days and the other was fully custom and lasted 300-400 days, which would you think would be the superior product.

d.c. Foot beds, everyone should be skiing on custom footbeds or orthotics. without a strong foundation the whole thing is shit.

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but nowhere is it stated that our liner rated for only 60-80 days of use. 150-200 days is our standard life expectancy. Obviously, that can change with how well or how poorly you take care of your gear, or how hard you are on your gear.

The Surefoot business model is one that is becoming less and less popular- more and more shops are including the fitting costs (labor charges) in the price of their boots in order to stay competitive with internet sales. That normally means when you buy a ski boot from a shop, they perform stretches, grinds, liner molding, shell molding, free of charge. Additional products, such as foam liners or footbeds, are not included but you would usually get a discounted price on them for buying your boot from that shop in the first place. So, more often than not, you don't need to spend an arm and a leg to get a great fitting pair of boots. You can get an amazing fitting boot for $500 bucks, custom footbeds for $125-175 and have a boot that lasts easily 150-200 days of skiing.

Of course there are more expensive, higher performing liners that are available aftermarket (most brands, including Atomic, make them) that will result in a longer lifespan, but they will not be cheap. So, it's never going to be the case that these two products will ever be priced the same as you suggest in letter c.

I definitely agree with you that people should be skiing with a good, supportive footbed that works with their foot shape.

 

[hippystinx]

You have quite obviously never worked with a bootfitter, saying it is easier to take away space in a boot than create space is so wildly incorrect its crazy. "everybody should be skiing on custom footbeds" a badly made footbed will cause just as many, if not more problems than no footbed at all, yet you seem to think that home fitting techniques are the way forward.

I fit probably 300 people in my time as a boot fitter with surefoot. I did probably 6-10 punches a night for 200 days or so. A lot of these modern boots now use newer and sometimes more malleable plastic to make there boots lighter and "custom heat fit". These lower melting temp plastics in my experience and everyone in every one of the 29 something surefoot locations across the world seem to agree on don't hold punches as well as a more piste/race performance oriented boot. Any hard core at boot for example generally doesn't hold a punch for more than 2 weeks. I would much rather have a customer come in and say its loose around my calf than my whole toe box feels like it is crushing my feet. and yeah of course if you start with a shitty footbed the whole foundation will be fucked...thats why you spend 200+ dollars on getting a decent pair, and avoid anything advertised as heat moldable. My first pair was an orthotic I had made in high school because I had horrible ankle problems. I now use surefoot milled insoles, I don't even think you could call them an ortho as a trained medical professional had absolutely nothing to do with the process, but they get the job done fine.

Foam liners work for very few people because of how snug of a fit they give, the average skier isn't looking for a high performance fit where they can barely wiggle their toes. Yes you can play around with the amount of catalyst you add but that takes experience to know how much to add for any given person, it is extremely unlikely that somebody trying to foam a set of boots for the first time will get it right. At the the end of the day we are seeing so much development from boot companies on the custom fit side of things it is becoming easier and easier to fit boots precisely without sacrificing comfort.

I have foamed over 200 something boots and I one hundred percent agree with you, for 90% of people it is over kill. I have been through

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but nowhere is it stated that our liner rated for only 60-80 days of use. 150-200 days is our standard life expectancy. Obviously, that can change with how well or how poorly you take care of your gear, or how hard you are on your gear.

The Surefoot business model is one that is becoming less and less popular- more and more shops are including the fitting costs (labor charges) in the price of their boots in order to stay competitive with internet sales. That normally means when you buy a ski boot from a shop, they perform stretches, grinds, liner molding, shell molding, free of charge. Additional products, such as foam liners or footbeds, are not included but you would usually get a discounted price on them for buying your boot from that shop in the first place. So, more often than not, you don't need to spend an arm and a leg to get a great fitting pair of boots. You can get an amazing fitting boot for $500 bucks, custom footbeds for $125-175 and have a boot that lasts easily 150-200 days of skiing.

Of course there are more expensive, higher performing liners that are available aftermarket (most brands, including Atomic, make them) that will result in a longer lifespan, but they will not be cheap. So, it's never going to be the case that these two products will ever be priced the same as you suggest in letter c.

I definitely agree with you that people should be skiing with a good, supportive footbed that works with their foot shape.

noted the atomic liners have 150-200 days in em, was more so referring to the "intuition" based liners. Awesome to know atomic is making higher quality liners. I know tecnica is making some pretty interesting liners as well. Does atomic offer a foam liner to the public? If so how and where do I acquire such a product?

 

[onenerdykid]

Does atomic offer a foam liner to the public? If so how and where do I acquire such a product?

We have a Redster foam liner that covers 95mm-98mm boots without any issue. We've made one for Keefer's 100mm Hawx Prime boots, so for some feet it can even be put into a 100mm shell. There's enough foam produced for a 100mm boot, but just depends on the last shape of the boot vs. last shape of the liner.

If your shop can order Atomic products, they can order it through normal customer service.

 

[Session]

I have foamed over 200 something boots and I one hundred percent agree with you, for 90% of people it is over kill. I have been through

noted the atomic liners have 150-200 days in em, was more so referring to the "intuition" based liners. Awesome to know atomic is making higher quality liners. I know tecnica is making some pretty interesting liners as well. Does atomic offer a foam liner to the public? If so how and where do I acquire such a product?

Intuition is a choice. There are other choices out there that are much longer lasting. Some brands may spec an Intuition because it's easier for their customer base to get a fit. While others make it an option because it is what people want.

Intuition works best for my lower leg, and foot, so it is a choice I make. Full well realizing that I have about 2 cooks and no more than 150 days before they are toast.