Audio + HD DSLR + Skiing

messplay

messplay

Active member
going to be filming a lot this winter with my 7D, looking to buy a rode shotgun mic but was wondering about the benefits with the h4n (if necessary) and reducing wind noise when filming/skiing with the dead cat wind muff or anything else to place on the microphone. if there are any other recommendations in a mic let me hear them but i'm leaning on the rode shotty due to what i've heard and the price.

thanks
 
heheheh :)

what rode shotgun are you talking about? the video mics? or an NTG 1/2/3? theres a drastic difference.

And please don't get the h4n....
 
piss poor pre-amps mostly, i mean any sub $600 field recorder has bad pre-amps, but the noise generated from the Zoom's are particularly bad. They have very low sensitivity, making it hard to use with some mics like the rode ntg series.
 
The h4n doesn't allow you to adjust the preamp level, only the power amp (mic level), and the provided preamp has a really high noise floor. Aside from that, it takes forever to start up, has awful battery life, and a horrid button layout. I mean, the levels adjustment is in the form of buttons for christ sake...they should be knobs, like any decent audio device.

I think what happens is people buy H4Ns based purely on internet recommendations without trying anything else. They get decent results, and rave about the product, which means nothing considering most people who use them haven't ever used anything else, so how can they know whether or not it's good?

Anyway, the benefit of an external audio recorder is a dedicated sound device. a $4,000 microphone sent through a 7D will still sound like shit; no way around it. This is because a signal is only as good as its weakest link, and in this case, DSLR preamps make it unusable.

While most people don't prefer to do it this way, I go around with nothing but a recorder and microphone and get audio bites of random things. Over time I have built up a library of random sounds, which I superimpose over footage (foley). I like to take laps on the mountain and do nothing but record the sound of skiers taking off jumps, grinding rails, wind, explosives, etc. Then in post I have complete control over the sound of my video.

As a rule of thumb, on-camera audio can only be so good, which isn't very good. Ask any sound engineer about on-camera mic's and they will facepalm.
 
The Videomic Pro is a phenomenal improvement over the original one. I suggest springing for that IF you insist on doing on-camera microphone.

I haven't used the NTG1, but the NTG2 has been quiet and noisy in my experience. The NTG3 is a great mic; many people say that it's pretty much the best super cardioid you can do for under $1k.
 
if you want crisp audio, it looks like you're going to have to get an external recorder and a shotgun.
 
i'm lacking knowledge in the external recorder area....what exactly will that be doing? placing my audio capture onto an external device attached to the cam....how will that work on a glidecam?

how will that benefit what the actual mic captures? i assume ill be able to drop ambient noise and tweak the sound
 
its going to work something like this

Sound from skier

| |

shotgun camera's mic

| |

recorder audio that is with video

|

SD Card

then in post, you'll put the audio that the recorder records OVER the cameras audio tracks. So nothing changes with the in cameras sound processing (which is crap, so it's a good thing)
 
fuck flow chart didn't work

let me try again

sound from skier -> cameras mic -> audio linked with video

same sound from skier -> shotgun mic -> recorder
 
A portable recorder allows you to have a dedicated device for sound capture. It records to separate storage and uses its own (relatively) high-quality compression (24-bit .WAV). It also allows you to use XLR mics, manually set pre and post amp, pan, etc.

Having said that, attaching it to your camera and skiing with it will still produce a bunch of nasty unwanted sound. Like I said previously, on-camera audio is crap; you will get mediocre results at best, and it's extremely finicky to run a separate audio recorder/mic connected to a camera body via mounting arm/rails/cage.

If you want quality sound with action sports, you have to record it separately and design it in post. There is no way around this.
 
i'm a bit confused.

i will be using my 7D on my glidecam HD. what do i need to look for (specific type of recorder) to use to capture audio from my rode shotgun mic? i assume what you're saying is using that mic and just my camera alone will do me no good...
 
What I'm saying is that mounting a microphone on a camera and moving around with it will sound bad, no matter how nice your gear is.

I don't know what shotgun mic you have, but if its a 3.5mm jack it will plug right into your 7D. However, this will produce the worst audio possible, both due to the fact that it's on-camera mic'ing and because DSLRs have horrible audio.

To get quality audio, you need a separate, dedicated audio recorder, pre-amp unit (ignore that for now), and microphone. Even if this setup is capable of AMAZING audio quality, it will still sound bad if you mount it on the camera and go skiing with it. That is why I recommend doing audio completely separate, as in take laps with nothing but the microphone/recorder and record various sounds. Then take laps filming with no audio. Then combine them in post.
 
makes sense.

i was thinking about the RODE shotgun mic videomic/pro but apparently i will need to get a boomstick/post to mount a mic on it to do laps with correct? what kind of external recorder is cheap that you recommend?

i also do work outside of skiing such as lifestyle vids and some interview vids for a company that i get paid for so i guess getting the RODE videomic for that will be more beneficial as oppposed to skiing use.

i do about 60% indoor and 40% outdoor shooting for that - i leave on the 18th of this month for 2 days for a shoot at a convention center and was tihnking about getting the RODE mic for that. plugging it into the cam's 3.5mm jack will be better than the on-cam audio? that's what im mainly looking for for that and if needed then i wil invest in a boomstick for audio laps only on the hill.

thanks
 
The Videomics improve on-camera audio greatly (assuming you've disabled AGC), but its still noisy and poor quality.

If you're using a boom pole/external recorder, the Rode videomic won't be ideal because it isn't meant for that application. The only shotgun I can recommend is the Rode NTG3 but I'm assuming that's out of your price range...
 
You don't want that...you want your audio to be completely separate from your camera.

Tascam DR100 or DR40 if you're on a budget.
 
obviously i'll be doing separate laps with this then for strictly audio or is there a way to hold it or mount it on the glidecam.

like in one of clarke's video's ( http://vimeo.com/28727486 ) i'm looking to get crisp clean audio that you can hear in the pipe.

thanks for the help man
 
The device you posted isn't a standalone system...all it does is allow you to bypass AGC and connect XLR mics to the camera. You are still stuck with the shitty audio compression with that.

Get an audio recorder. Not a converter you mount on your camera. Record audio separately. Then if you want, you can use an iPod shuffle plus Y cable to disable AGC and attach a RODE Videomic Pro to the camera. Now you have a solid sound recorder for foley AND an on-camera option since you seem insistent on that.
 
Right...let's say i purchase the DR100 by tascam...it is an audio recorder, i technically will not need the RODE vidmic then correct? This way I can ski with the audio recorder alone, ski with the camera alone, and sync certain audio in post. The DR100 will record this audio separately and I will be able to drown out certain sounds/tones i don't want. If needed, I can attach an XLR mic to this or the shotgun mic, but that would be pointless for skiing as opposed to interview/indoor type work..right?

am i lost as fuck?
 
most of that is correct. It would not be pointless to attach a shotgun to the DR100 for skiing at all, it would be better than the sub-par on-recorder mics that is has.
 
how would that even work on a glidecam, or am i supposed to hold the vidmic and the audio recorder in each hand and ski or just post up somewhere for specific audio?
 
what you would do is this:

-shoot your skiing shots with the glidecam, no audio recorder

-take a separate few laps with just your audio recorder and mic, and record sounds like landings, takeoffs, rails, etc.

-in post, cut the sound out from the footage and replace it with the sounds you recorded on the recorder
 
That's my point- you don't put it on the glidecam! don't put it on your camera. Just forget it.

Let me illustrate with a hypothetical scenario of a skier hitting a table.

1. Take a run with only the camera. No audio whatsoever. Film the skier until he lands the trick.

2. Ditch the camera, and take a run with only the audio recorder (DR100), a boom pole, and super cardioid shotgun (NTG3). Have the skier hit the jump in the exact same way. One run, hold the microphone next to the lip to get the sound of him carving. Next run, hold the mic near the landing to get the sound of him landing. Next run, get the sound of him in the air to get the clanking of his skis/poles while he does the trick.

3. Match them in post. You're done.

I will say a thousand times over: on-camera audio is garbage. There is no way around this. However, if you STILL want to ignore me and do it anyway, the best you can do is get a RODE Videomic Pro, and do the AGC disable trick using an iPod shuffle and Y cable.

The built in mic on the DR100 may be decent at best, but as a general rule you should be using external XLR mics and not built-in ones.

That adapter you posted isn't an audio recorder; it's just a glorified input adapter. They're rubbish, imo.

 
I should also note that you can use a condenser if you want something less "telephone-y", but they are much more finnicky and harder to manage. If you learn to use them right, they are amazing though. Alan Parsons (Dark Side of the Moon) swears by them when the industry standard for guitars is dynamic mics.
 
right i understand all of that. i am not getting the beachtek, just looking more into the dr100 and dr40 and similar products now.

a boompole would only be necessary if i were to get a shotgun mic, which in this case, a decent/cheap starting mic would be the RODE product or like you said the NTG1/2/3 depending on my budget when it comes to the time of purchase and mount that on the pole for audio which in turn would record to the DR100/40
 
It sounds like you don't understand...

"on-camera" audio is when the microphone is fixed to the camera. Attaching a DR100, pre-amp, and shotgun mic to a DSLR won't sound very good because the microphone is moving at high speeds. It doesn't matter if the audio is completely separate and you're using very nice equipment. Moving a microphone at that speed will sound like shit.

You need a boom pole no matter what type of microphone you use; how else are you going to hold the microphone to the subject? Holding it by hand is a pain because the slightest finger movement will be picked up by the mic, which is why boom poles have suspension diaphragms. A boom pole not only helps you reach certain subjects, but it also gives you something solid to grab onto without adding clicks and bumps due to your grip shifting three millimeters.

A RODE Videomic Pro may marginally improve the built-in audio on your DSLR, but on a dedicated recording device it won't have much improvement, if any. They are cheap, quick-fixes, and I only recommend them if you INSIST on using DSLR audio rather than separate audio. If you're using a dedicated audio recorder, you should be using an XLR mic and not one that uses a 3.5mm jack.

Always remember that audio is only as good as its weakest link. That weak link can be anything from a cheap cable, microphone, A/D converter, pre-amp, or in some shameful circumstances, mounting the microphone on the camera.
 
Kind of off topic but what do you guys recommend from experience for external audio to record talking? Sort of interview style. I was looking at the wireless lavalier systems I think but I'm not too sure what's the best way to go.
 
get a recorder and one of the many wired lav systems out there. You could go wireless, but you'd have to have quite a big budget for that (the G3 system by sennheiser is $600, the Sony UWP is $440)
 
Buy a cheap recorder + lav mic and have the person talk with the recorder in their pocket. Sync in post. Bing bong boom.
 
So I shouldn't get one that goes directly to the mic input? Is that just because of the poor dslr audio quality?
 
Learning so much from this thread! Anyother audio tips? To make audio sound better in post? Anything. I know diddly squat about audio.
 
so i am leaving for portland in 7 days and i have to film a convention and do interview-based questions/filming.

i am looking for something i can order for this and yet also use for skiing this season.

can i just get the tascam dr100 or dr40 and be set and get a mic + boompole later when it's closer to season?

will the tascam dr100 be beneficial enough to me for this? what else will i need?

 
I'd say get the DR40, save a few bucks there, then buy a shotgun or some mic. The onboards of both the dr40 and dr100 are pretty poor, you'd be better off with an external. I'm selling an Azden SGM-1x if you're interested!
 
so the dr40 and a solid external mic? what would work as both an external in association with the dr40 as well as using the same mic for a boompole while skiing...

does no one really shoot with a dslr and a rode videomic or similar shotguns while filming?

how the fuck did clarke get such solid sound in this bitchhttp://vimeo.com/28727486

the sync is perfect..
 
a shotgun mic, like the rode NTG1/2/3, or similar audio technica, sennheiser, sanken, or azden mic.

nobody that gets good sound shoots that way.

clarke probably had separate run throughs with a recorder and shotgun and probably sat on the lip of the pipe recording sound of the skis, then added it over the video. I'm pretty sure he didn't have a huge audio bank as some of those claps sounded similar, and probably were. Nobody notices unless you are intentionally looking for it.
 
He likely did it all in post. Syncing isn't that hard when you can scrub down to the very frame...

Using a RODE videomic only improves on-camera audio. It doesn't give GOOD sound; it only marginally improves it. At the very least, an external recorder, microphone, and boom will give you much better sound for the money. Throw in some pre-amps and solid A/D converters, high quality shielded cables, (not to mention years of practice), and you've got Hollywood sound quality.
 
let's say you have at most $700 to spend on audio for now...

what would your setup be strictly in regards to sound.

boom pole + mic + recorder + (pre-amp (optional))
 
Well, a pre-amp is useless on its own. How are you going to use it without a recorder and microphone to plug it into? That would be like buying a laptop without a screen. Besides, not only is the pre-amp itself $700, but you can get great audio without one (if you apply yourself).

For $700, get a Tascam DR40, used boom pole + shockmount off DVXuser, and RODE NTG-2. If you plan on doing interviews, I suggest getting a lav and having the interviewee just hold the recorder in their pocket. I like the RODE Lavalier because it has interchangeable plugs, has decent sound, and seems to be the best bang for the buck.

Also just a disclaimer, my ears are trained like a bloodhound's nose. This is because I've been a suzuki musician my entire life and therefore use my ears as if they were my eyes. While a dedicated pre-amp unit may produce astounding quality differences in sound to me, you may not notice a difference at all. If I say "on-camera audio" is complete shit, you may not be able to tell the difference between that and separate sound.

By convention, audio is only as good as its weakest link; that is, a $1k microphone, $1k pre-amp, $1k A/D converter, and $1k recorder all connected using $40 cables will produce $40 sound quality. Industry professionals will agree with this across the board, but take my advice into the aforementioned context and work on getting the bear necessities: recorder, mic, and boom. You likely won't know the difference between million-dollar-sound and $700 sound, which is totally understandable at this point. In time your ears may grow to hear the difference, but for now I wouldn't be too concerned with it.
 
right, i meant if i were to get he boompole, record, and mic without the pre-amp (definitely onw't at this point, i'd rather put the $700 towards a rig or a new lens) would there be much of a difference but that all makes sense.

i'll browse around and narrow my options, thanks

 
Anyone on here use lavs w/windscreens to capture stomp/rail sounds from skiers? I feel like a wireless lav would be good bang for my buck
 
Bad idea. Lavs need to be clipped onto a stable surface. Putting a lav near the feet to pick up any of that stuff would introduce so much noise it would be unusable.

That's what booms + condensers are for.
 
coming back with a question that may have been answered...

ive seen a h4n attached on a hotshoe with a wind muff on it, how is that in comparison to just the oncam shotgun mic?

i am still leaning on getting the NTG-2 or something similar, with a boompole, and the dr-40 or 100.

however, im thinking about this winter and skiing, and doing separate laps with audio may be a pain in the ass and a waste of time if i have a total sum of maybe 20-40seconds of sound in lets say a 3minute edit.

thoughts? i figure skiing extremely slowly with the glidecam and getting some rail/jump shots will only capture hardcore wind sound, how would the RODE videomic/videomic PRO do in this condition as compared to skiing with a boompole, my tascam recorder, and the mic on the pole...i realize the shotgun mic will marginally amke anything better, but at elast it makes it somewhat better + has a wind muff.

thanks
 
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