Are you voting for Obama?

Look, no offense, but you're not special. Its not like you're the first opinionated young person from a privileged background. You've had millions and millions of forebears in front of you that have felt the exact same way.

Stupid and smart are never the baseline of an opinion, perspective is, and you're damned out of touch if you believe otherwise. Speaking of perceptive, I find many breeds of that ego-stroking elitist arrogance to be very lacking in perspective.
 
ide be interested drew, who falls into the "idiots" in your words....

i know you hate hearing this, but lets talk about my family for a bit.

my grandpa worked his whole life to provide a good living for his wife and children. he has no formal education other than high school in nowhere Iowa.

he is whom i would call politically savvy but doesnt keep up with all the Bullshit on a day to day basis..

does he have the right to feel that the democrats are robbing him blind. ?

he worked his whole life to be able to pay cash for their dream home. now that he is on the board of directors for a telephone company and pulling in christmas bonuses that are enough to calcify them as middle class alone, aside from the salary he earns.

now my grand parents also do a TON of good with the money they have, each christmas they take that christmas bonus and instead of spoiling their grandchildren, they make christmas happen for family's in need out in Hutchinson MN... they find people who are not able to have a christmas and make it happen for them. last year for christmas i got a savings bond, and a pair of leather work gloves, and a ski movie... its not about what you have or what you get, its what you do with it.

but what would he know, he had to skip weeks of school every year to help harvest corn by hand, and then couldnt afford to go to college.
 
This is a fundimental difference between a liberal and a conservative.

The Liberal thinks he is "just smarter" than everybody else and because of that his government programs that he or the government created will help people get out of poverty. they cant do it on their own.

The Conservative thinks that people are smart enough to raise themselves out of poverty with hard work, education etc. they give credit to the people.
 
So your telling me that 80% of all Americans are mentally retarded and have no use to society just because they can't answer "trivia" questions........... no the average american knows what they need to know....they are informed about the issues and the candidates responses so you or any other hot shot knows no more then they do so dont give me this bs that your so smart and 80% of Amercians are dumb that's not going to fly with me!
 
not sure why you jumped down my throat, i dropped your name because i respect that you are (and you are, drew, whether you like it or not) one of the only members of NS who knows what they are talking about with this stuff (from the liberal side). i don't agree with most of what you say political wise, but at least it has substance.

you are kidding yourself if you think most of the NS obama supporters know as much as you do about this topic, it is trendy, always has been. you, unlike those aforementioned, do your research. you have an opinion, and it's a justified one in some ways, just not one that i agree with, but i digress....

but don't hide behind your booksmarts, which, yeah buddy, we get it, you have, to try to put down those who do their research too, like skiminnesota, papasteeze, myself, and others. i don't know you, or your state of affairs, so i'm sure you really believe obama is the right choice for you, and that's great. i don't hate on anyone's opinion, but i do hate on those who derive their opinion from, well, oblivion and not much else.

there's a bunch of dumbass McCain supporters out there who don't know shit, too, but don't act like the "idiots" that are going to be voting this november won't be voting for your precious obama.

i won't humor you on the last part, i'm sure you just want to try and put that shit to bed like always. consider the whole post before you bite someone's head off. i gave you a fuckin compliment.
 
The US was never a democracy by its true definition, its more of a republic.

But I digress...of course you think you have an informed opinion, it wouldn't be your opinion if you didn't think so. I simply fail to see how that makes you different from anybody else, regardless of how "smart" you actually are compared to everybody. I have my own opinions and ideas about how the world should be run, and I find it highly unlikely that your background or intelligence is much different from mine...even when our views are clearly at odds.

Most people don't mold their views around some ideology as defined in some poli-sci textbook. People generally build their opinions around individual issues coupled with their experience. Your concept of "idiots" is simply a headstrong idea that boils down to stereotyping. It assumes your better or different from the rest, despite the contrary being the likely reality. Frankly, I think the bulk of that mind set is based on sensationalism without foundation...ironically they very thing you believe is "manipulating" "most people".

Long story short, I think you are lacking perspective in this regard.
 
so again your calling Americans stupid..........First your all o we need to help the person in the middle class they are the structure of america now your all they're dumb they shouldn't be voting....... which is it?
 
wow drew, you really dont need to talk down small town america.... (the general public)

i live in small town america, so does hockyfisher....

small town america is full of good people, sure they cant tell you who is the leader of france is (its sarkozie right?) but they are good people...

people who work for what they have, they make their own future, they go out and drive a tractor, they drive a truck, some of them are are bakers, there are bus drivers, hell even pilots live here too,;) some are even CEO's, there are teachers, there are soldiers, but we are ALL Americans.

o and most of us (Americans) cling to guns, religion, and antipathy...

 
your missing his point. the average american doesnt bother to look into shit like you or me or drew or quinny. their decisions are based entirely on party, or non issues like gay marriage, or religion, or race.

shit my grandfather on my moms side would vote for hitler if he was the republican candidate... why? because he was under the republican name. i honestly dont think he gives two shits what the guy stands for.

he also wont vote for obama cuz hes black..

sadly i would say the vast majority of people vote this way, and are in turn, idiots
 
with no regard for the very deep seeded inequalities that structure our society... it's not an even playing ground. There is a whole history of injustice that plagues our society, and while it may be easier not to take responsibility for that, it's the only way we can really heal. For example and i know this one always gets a response, being a white male, gives an advantage and fucking privilege that needs to be acknowledged. so while it's easy from a superior position to tell someone they're 'smart' enough to make it, it's condescending, and in total disregard for a deeper structure of injustice that oppresses people.
 
well i can tell you one thing...a big reason is because he is black...aka all the black people like him...like the dirty south...

Mccain ftw
 
not quite, but i can't tell if you're suppose to think of a guy with rock hard abs or a guy carrying around a 6 of bud
 
The idea behind the "democracy" is that it the US contains many elements of it, incorporated into a hybrid of several systems. I wouldn't say we're a true republic either, but something in between. Using either term would be a fair assessment, albeit not totally accurate.

But again we digress...

I think you have a gross underestimation of the average voter, as well as a gross underestimation of how many of those so called "idiots" actually show up at the booths. Lets take your school for example, its fair to assume that there are a reasonable number of people there that share a similar intelligence and knowledge base to yourself. However, odds are that many of the people on your campus that say they are going to vote probably will not. While students can appear to be very engaging, they're voter turnout is practically laughable. There is a reason our demographic ends up getting screwed far more than anybody else.

School provides intensive access to certain knowledge in a very insulated environment. The workplace provides access to different kinds of information in a less insulated environment. They both have value, but are quite different. You truly think differently depending upon which one you are in...thus while someone may or may not share a similar background, their perspective can change and differ depending upon the environment. In any case, the point is while there are some things you know that seem blatantly obvious that other people seem to not see...but it truly goes both ways.

You also mention "self-examination", sure, we both try to evaluate ourselves and what we think as much as possible. However, we lack a certain perspective that older generations have. We really don't know exactly what it was like during the Great Depression, the 60's, the Regan years, etc. Classes and books can only provide so much information, in its own very insulated way.

Anyway, I'm talking about perspective. I would find it a bit more wise and tactful if you would give that notion consideration. As a bonus, it would make you a more well-rounded individual.
 
I'll agree, "joe six pack" just gives me the image of an alcoholic redneck chugging away at a six pack of Milwaukee's Best.
 
Personally i think you're overestimating the amount of effort the average american will spend trying to sort out the issues and be politically savvy. That's not easy! The information is wide and vast. If you mean that the average american can tell you about the campaign commercials they saw on tv, or what their friend told them about an issue then yes i agree, but to have actually gone out and researched the ins and outs of the issues at hand NO, it just doesn't happen. And so what you have is a force of people (i'm pretty sure this is who Drew is calling idiots and i might even be included in that group but will readily admit that) that are voting based on what the media or their friends and family tell them. It's a conformist vote to a certain extent, but it's real, and i think Drew has a point. It seems like you're arguing for the american people, but come on... have you actually gone and tried to talk to them, me, us about the issues at hand? I have some issues that i know more about than others, and honestly i don't have much faith in the political system, so when i have a limited amount of time and energy to do and make positive change in the world, that's not how i choose to spend it. that's just me, and i do consider myself intelligent and with perspective, and you can probably guess a democrat. So it's agreed that there are "idiots" maybe we should rename this group "political conformists" on the right left and middle.
 
i still find it funny how immature the democratic party is, i was just thinking about how the crazy lib dems had to like riot outside of the republican convention. just a bunch of bitch ass cry babies.
 
obama better hope that he isnt predicted to win in the days right before election day cuz if that happens voter turn out will double in the south and shift toward mccain. which by the way mccain is a way better choice
 
Hence the trendy Obama atmosphere here on NS. You described "yourselves" perfectly! You guys think you are so smart, that you are dumb, not stupid, just dumb. No worries, you'll likely figure it out in a few years. Remember, I was liberal at one point in my life, then I grew up.
 
Why do people care so much about how people voted on the Iraq war like 5 years ago? it doesnt matter because were already there. yes it sucks that were there and we never should have gone in the first place but we cant just pull out now. if we set a time table on withdrawl we might as well send the terrorist a letter saying that they can start bombing shit again in 18 months when we leave. We owe to everyone that died to finish the job and make their sacrifice worth while, whether you think we should be there or not.
 
you know popular vote doesn't matter, and if there'll be any mass 'racist' (if that's what you're implying) it'll have to be in FL which is a toss up but we've already seen how McCain threw Florida away by saying he'll take a trillion dollars out of medicare/medicade, not to mention how the democrats have registered almost twice as many new voters than the repubs. there.

looking at the electoral map calculator on CNN it almost looks like it'll be a landslide
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/calculator/

 
And what about all the innocent Iraqi citizens that have been killed by our presence, do we not owe it to them to gtfo sooner than later?

 


The positive things that have come from us being in Iraq:

Sadam is dead, and the years of his tyrannical rule is over.

There is absolutely no doubt he was as evil as claimed.

Democracy is developing in Iraq, and considering the conditions in that country both pre and post invasion, that in of itself is a huge plus.

Lybia turned over all their WMD (some of which no one knew about) as a direct result of the Invasion.

Syria and Iran have received a major wake up call...iran has cut back on its exports of weapons into iraq recently.

There are lot of positives occuring in Iraq right now. Attacks have plummetted, many areas that had seen the most violence are seeing a positive change in their communities, and the ability to rebuild local economies. We are seeing the actual positive results of the "Surge" as stated by Gen. Petreaus and Ambassador Crocker, you know those men who were called liars before even providing their reports to Congress.

Of course this either ignored or discarded as "insignificant"... heck some tried to say the drop in deaths last month were due to Rahmadan, a period which so a major spike inviolence last year...

It will always be easier to point out something negative though, when that is all you have been trying to see.

 
I dont think mccain has any chance at winning. And im not gonna lie, i care a hell of a lot more about the innocent americans that were killed on 9/11 than i do about the innocent iraqis that got killed by our presence. Im not saying that iraq had anything to do with 9/11 but there was obviously enough of a reason to believe that they had some ties to al queada (sp?) and whether you like bush or not or support the war or not, you have to admit that hes done some stuff right. when they flew our commercial airliners into our buildings everyone in the world thought that the gloves were off and we were just gonna go ape shit and start nuking people. but since 9/11 there hasnt been an attack on american soil and that is because of our presence in the middle east. Granted it was our imperialstic policies that got us into the whole mess of the world hating us. thats why im not running for president. cuz were wrong either way but we cant just bail out and show the world that were weak. we need to get off the damn part politic train. the democrats sold us out in congress and a democratic president from that congress wont be much better than our congress. party politics is the root of all americas problems, that is why george washington warned against them.
 
Iran is stronger than ever right now, they love us for taking out their biggest competition. They might have pretended to halt their enrichment programs, (due to negotiations suggested by obama) but as far as i know they've resumed some opperations.

in short the Iraq war only further destabilized the region, brought al Quaeda into Iraq, and while Saddam was a bastard, he really didn't pose any threat to us at the time
 
if I hear one more person mention the Harvard Law Review without actually knowing what it is.......
 
youre right the 1 positive thing to come out of the war was suggested by Obama

And you know everything about their operartion and they have told they are resuming them

Its not like the middle east and Iraq have been living in a perfect world before the war... there has been constant turmoil over there due to their religous belies; the sunni shia have been going at it for a while

look at the big picture and see that more positives than negatives how come out of this war
 
BAH no way will i ever see this war as a positive, ever. not even if it was true that Saddam had WMD's, I would have rather had him have made an aggressive attack and gone to Iraq with the whole rest of the world than play Bush's Cowboy and Indians game.

Short of us dropping some nukes on the place, i don't know how things could have gone worse for us.

 
Idiots do in fact exist. I have not, or at least not intended, to contest that. What I am really arguing here is that the proportion of idiots is far smaller than either you or Drew surmise.

I still have not seen a satisfactory explanation of how you, or anyone else here, is truly different from the average person. You choose to allocate your time and energy towards certain issues, as does virtually everyone else that participates in our system. No one can have all the answers, not even such exalted people as McCain or Obama.

Lets take yourself for example. You state that you show little faith in our government, but at the same time align yourself with the Democratic party. Associating yourself with a party that is vying for a larger government seems to be counter intuitive to your lack of faith in that same system...but thats a whole other issue. The point I'm making is that your beliefs and knowledge can be as easily contested as anybody else, let alone the "idiots".

I simply find that whole elitist mentality ironic because it is a victim of its own device and falls prey to many of the same things the non-elite are accursed of.

By the way...this is not an attack, so please don't take it as an insult...but please use paragraph breaks when you write anything of length. It really is much easier to read something thats not a solid, non-congruent, wall of text.
 
hahahaha wow dude you post such garbage on here. get a life. grew up? you talk down to teeagers every day on an internet forum. maybe if you really "grew up" you'd get a little more liberal.
 
You got your sig from me, old man!! I'm actually 23, and will probably vote for Obama (very reluctantly). But from what I've read, that quote is misattributed to Churchill.
 
It is. Churchill never said that, and his political career shows did somewhat the opposite of what the quote states.
 
I wouldn't actually know anything about that, as I've never expressed an opinion in my life. Any statement I make is factual, including this one. Reality re-shapes itself to conform with my beliefs. Should I decree tomorrow that the sky is green, it will be green. Should I decree that mushrooms taste disgusting, that will immediately not only become true, but also verifiable. The real problems happen when I start declaring that something not only is so, but has always been so, as my decrees obviously apply retroactively as well, which can get confusing for some people. But everything ends up okay once I declare that they can in fact understand it all.
 
I don't know what you're talking about. D-loc was never a posting member on NS. Also, anyone who seeks evidence to the contrary will cease to be a posting member on NS.

The preceding has been a statement of objectively verifiable fact. But don't try to verify it or bad things will happen to you.
 
In sorry for not breaking it up.

I agree that it may seem counter intuitive to align myself with the democratic party, but if the system is going to move in one direction or another, i'd rather see it move left than right. Truly what i think we need is a shift in the entire paradigm... and it will probably get worse before it gets better.

I am NOT different than the average person, I think you missed my point entirely if that's what you think i'm trying to say. I said that i'd most likely put myself in the 'idiot' category.

I'm not talking about having all the answers, i'm simply talking about the ability to access information. There are A LOT of people on all sides that don't have TIME to really look into these things beyond what is simply force fed, they're working one maybe two full time jobs, trying to feed their kids etc. Politics are not a priority for everyone especially when you've lost hope that the system can actually help you.

I don't agree with an elitest mentality at all, i think this occurs on both sides of the argument and it's really more about control, power and manipulation. And this elitest mentality is what we're force fed, and is the information that is most easily accesible.. information with an agenda.
 
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