American 'Enhanced Interrogation'

Shutup MSTRKRFT. You are a complete idiot and completely lowered the standard of this thread with your statements.
 
I was just chillin' having a constructive conversation with some people on NS. Why are you so serious? Go jerk off or something.
 
ok, i cant find the legit source now, but think about how waterboarding works. if you do it non stop, the person WILL die. they cant breathe.
 
I may be REALLY off the mark with this but, I thought it simply gave the feeling of drowning and smothering and after they stopped pouring you could still breathe just a limited amount.
 
ok here.

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWYxY2RkOGE2YjExNzc0OTBhMjQ5MGQ5MTUzYmNlY2Q=

the relevant piece

O'REILLY: Can this hurt you if they continue to do it? Can it kill you, water boarding?

ROSS: If they continued, it could. But essentially, it creates a gag reflex, where you think you are about to die, you think you're drowning. You're not.

see, its no different than holding someone underwater, then pulling them up before the drown. if you continue to do it past a certain time, they will die.
 
not that i know of. but that wasnt really my point. my point is you are slowly killing a person, without ever letting it get there. if thats not torture....
 
Personally I think the cockmeat sandwich in Escape From Guantanamo Bay would be more effective, but whatever. I understand what you're saying.
 
oh god, dont even get me started on that hypocrisy. when that happened, the bush administration punished the people doing it (the lowdown soldiers following orders) because it was wrong. (regardless of the fact that several of the things that took place were condoned by rumsfeld). yet now, when shit might hit the fan for the people responsible higher up, its all good.
 
The Bush administration fucking protected our country. We have not been attacked since September 11th 2001.

Did you know that all of the memos and reports have not been released? There are memos that have not been declassified that describe the successes of the interrogations and cite specific examples on what the CIA gained from it. Vice President Cheney called for them to be released in March (prior to obama having the current memos released).

The obama administration only goes halfway. They put out memos about torture but only tell half the story. And this torture by the way is now defined as anything that causes discomfort, and in many cases has been reduced to the equivalent of a man yelling at his wife. Its putting a caterpillar in a jail cell.

anyways...President Obama declared that the techniques used to question captured terrorists 'did not make us safer.' This is obviously false. The proof is in the memos Obama made public -- in sections that have gone virtually unreported in the media. Consider the Justice Department memo of May 30, 2005. It notes that 'the CIA believes "the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qaeda has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001." ... In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including [Khalid Sheikh Mohammed] and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques.' The memo continues: 'Before the CIA used enhanced techniques … KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, "Soon you will find out." 'Once the techniques were applied, interrogations have led to specific --'"

Here's another memo citing how this has helped our country stay safe...May 30th, 2005: "Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques 'led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the "Second Wave," "to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into" a building in Los Angeles.' KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast. The memo explains that 'information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemaah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the "Second Wave."'"

He sends out half the information and blatantly lies saying it doesn't work when the memos he releases are completely different. Of course the main stream media is not reporting it and you will dismiss it since it will appear on the conservative crazy fox news.

All in all, this is just an attempt of the obama administration to eliminate any type of notion of success from the Bush administration. They are saying that we are not safer and these torture methods made the terrorists more mad. Now Obama is going to stop them and of course, the terrorist are going to see that we are humane once again, and since they are humane as well, they will stop hating america and will not attack again....

sarcasm aside, obama is trying to take any success away from Bush, and if we get attacked again...the blame WILL go to Bush. The media will make it that way. Obama will make it go that way (He is already apologizing to everyone around the world for how terrible america is) Obama is going to say the torture stuff will make them attack us more.

There are a few hundred people out there that have risked everything to make our country safer, and now they are feeling totally berayed, and now afraid about trials and indictments for helping our country to be safe.

And Ben. It's not like the CIA is pulling any middle eastern looking guy from diary queen and torturing him. They are "torturing" well known/high up terrorists. These are masterminds behind killing thousands of americans on 9-11.

If anyone should pay the price it is Obama for changing this country more in the last 90 days and having more spending than in the entire country since its creation. time for this dumbass to leave office.
 
But whats to say we couldnt continue to other interrogation methods and did not receive the information we needed because the president said we couldnt use other methods. We dont receive the information. Now the Library tower in LA is reduced to a pile of rubble and thousands have died again because people favors the "rights" of terrorists trying to destroy this country. The left is nicer and gives more rights than they do to many citizens of this country. Stop trying to appease. It did not work in WWII with Chamberlain and Hitler.
 
Like Dick Cheney was saying ide like to have the other half of the memo's showing what was accomplished from these "enhanced" techniques.
 
oh for fucks sake. 9/11 happened while bush was in office! dont give me this "it was all clintons fault" crap either. a) clinton made an effort to find bin laden, congress shut him down on funding. b) even if he didnt do it perfectly, bush had what, almost a year in office before the worst terror attack in history HAPPENED ON HIS WATCH. im not saying it was 100% his fault. im sure it wasnt, but the fact of the matter is, he was president when it happened.

i want to see all the memos released, i really do. apparently there are ALSO memos out there proving that a lot of the info obtained came from OTHER sources, or before these people were tortured. but this is all speculation till he releases all the memos. i agree with you there (sort of, just not for the same reason haha)

but regardless, torture is wrong, period. do i want to see americans dead? no. but the fact of the matter is we cannot throw away the basic rights of human beings "for the safety of this nation." thats a line we cant draw, at what point are people "terrorist enough" to torture? at what point is it bad enough for torture to be ok? are these people terrorists that they have tortured? probably, but where do we draw that line?

as for it making terrorist love us, no it wont in that sense. but it makes it a hell of a lot easier to recruit people into hating america when we are being complete and total hypocrites.

and your last paragraph is irrelevant. this isnt about the economy, so dont try and make it about that. he shouldnt have to leave office.

jesus that was an essay. oh and i tried to quote your whole post but it wouldnt let me, so i deleted a shitload to make it work
 
TORTURE IS WRONG. does it suck that americans could die? yes. but we cant stoop down on their level.
 
not to mention the misuse (its all misuse but i couldnt come up with a better term) of this torture.

an anonymous former senior intelligence official said

“There were two reasons why these interrogations were so persistent, and why extreme methods were used,” the former senior intelligence official said on condition of anonymity because of the issue’s sensitivity.

“The main one is that everyone was worried about some kind of follow-up attack (after 9/11). But for most of 2002 and into 2003, Cheney and Rumsfeld, especially, were also demanding proof of the links between al Qaida and Iraq that (former Iraqi exile leader Ahmed) Chalabi and others had told them were there.” […]

“There was constant pressure on the intelligence agencies and the interrogators to do whatever it took to get that information out of the detainees, especially the few high-value ones we had, and when people kept coming up empty, they were told by Cheney’s and Rumsfeld’s people to push harder,”

what better way to legitimatize their phony war than torture people into saying it!
 
this debate reminds me of the pirate situation a few weeks ago and the differing opinions on what should have happened to those scuzzbuckets. do we resort to the old techniques and hang them from the rigging of ships in Boston Harbor? hmmm
 
The levels are not equivalent. Terrorists want to kill all of us. They want an islamic state everywhere in the world. they want to blow up nuclear weapons in times square and destroy america. We are gathering information. While it may be stooping down from our level (which it kind isnt since weve always done this), it is not to their level which is considerably below ours.

I never said anything about before 9-11. I didnt blame clinton. I was talking post 9-11. But since you bring it up. Sudan offered Clinton Osama and he didnt take him. Besides, I dont know enough about the events prior to 9-11 to talk about it, so that should prob stop now.

One last point. Congress signed and allowed the use of all this "torture." Nancy Pelosi even signed it. DO NOT PIN THIS ON BUSH.
 
another problem with this. Bush claims they stopped this attack IN 2002 BEFORE WE HAD EVEN CAPTURED KSM. so which was it? did he foil it before? or after?
 
every time i read a post by skiminnesota, delphi, or atlskier, i have to remind myself that its just the internet because you guys are so fucking stupid i want to track you down and beat the shit out of your empty fucking heads. how old are you?
 
All i know is that memo that i posted and what that said about gaining the intelligence. i dont know about bush saying anything.
 
Are you fucking serious dude? i dont even know what to say to such a stupid post. PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS THAN YOU. SUCK IT UP. Just because Ben has a different view from me, I dont want to beat the shit out of him. I think youre fucking stupid, not because you have different views (and didnt even contribute to this thread), but because youre a bitch about this. I replied with facts and good reasons to why this shit should be used. If you cant except reality and facts, then fine. Im fucking 21 by the way and I currently have a 3.6 gpa at georgia tech. so fuck you. but yeah, beating our heads in so that no one can hear the truth is a good way to spread the left agenda. well done.
 
hahahah check it out. Bush said in 2002 that they had foiled a west coast attack by KSM. Yet then it turns out it was the intel they got from torturing him what, 3 years later? that actually foiled the attack. their calendars must be a little confusing.
 
in my opinion, there really is no winning this argument for either side

if we don't torture to get no info, and we get attacked, people will ask how it happened, and when they find out, will demand that we do everything to protect ourselves, including torture.

If we torture to get info, and we don't get attacked, people will then say that the torture was inhumane and served no purpose, even if information they learned directly from torturing an individual where/how the attack would go down, and be able to prevent it.

I guess the point of this is that people need to die to justify torture in the public's opinion. Post 9/11 when people were still a bit in shock, and pissed about how many americans were killed, this debate would never have caused such issues. Back then everyone wanted to kill everyone who could hurt us slowly and painfully.

I'm not saying anyone here is wrong or anything, because surprisingly, almost everyone has been able to throw out some decent info and back it up, and i'd prefer to stay out of this whole issue simply because i'm uninformed. I don't know a lot about the whole thing, but i can form my own thoughts based on what i do know, which is also why i started this post with "in my opinion."
 
So can I sell you my patented Tiger Repellent? It works! I've been using it for years, and not one tiger attack in all that time!
 
i was just about to make a similar comment on the same ATLski quote....

bush kept us safe....lol....yeah...
 
another point to add to that. part of the reason we havent been attacked again, is because we brought our people to them. why bother to plan a complicated attack on america, when you can just as easily kill people in Afghanistan.
 
great contribution my friend, you are a genius. I really want to flame the shit out of you, but it's not worth it. If I went around wanting to beat the shit out of everyone I didn't agree with, you would be at the top of my list. Next time, I suggest you come into this with an argument of substance, not the mindless prattle of someone who can't form their own opinion and therefore needs to act like a total bitch to make a stupid point, if there is a point to this at all. I disagree with Ben on almost everything but I respect him because he actually looks into his shit and defends it like a grown up. You should take a page out of his book. ATLskier and skiminnesota have both, and historically, laid out their points with data they feel are important, don't hate on kids who have their shit together and stand up for what they believe in. Also, your post aside, I can say that much of the discourse in here has been intelligent. You fucked that up. We are old enough to know what we believe in. I'm not 13 years old, I'm 20 and do very well in school, and even though one ounce of my being doesn't give a shit as to what you think about my intelligence, I have a problem with you casting aspersions on people who have a hell of a lot more to say than you do. Get a clue and make constructive posts or leave. I would love to beat your ass up and down this place, but I have more sense than that.
 
haha I think it's so uncivilized because people know they probably won't ever see one another in real life and if they do, they won't know who is who without asking. that makes it soo much easier to just go nuts because you know there really are no ramifications. If I sound like a dick when I post, which I know I do to some of you, in person, I'm a heck of a lot more reserved. A lot of the shit I say on here I would have to really think about before I said it in person. It's not that I'm unwilling to stand up for myself in person, but I'd need to formulate a coherent plan of attack before I open my big fat mouth.
 
another key question.

what good do these pictures accomplish? Tell me one good thing, besides political reasons.

Its going to make it more of an agenda, for this administration, to come after our own troops instead of going after the ones responsible for 9/11 or other terrorist leaders.

Obama is feeding the fire and his agenda is to blame bush and play stupid politic games, like closing gitmo, than actually concentrating on the war. thats fine, if he wants to play that game, but while he is freeing prisoners, giving them rights, and showing top-secret pictures to the world, my best friends will be in the middle of hell fighting for us to be here.
 
improving our world image so the rest of the world doesnt see us as the hypocrites we are?
 
I disagree with you. The world is not perfect and it never will be. our country will never be perfect no matter how badly the ACLU wants it to be.

problem is, we all knew that we used water-boarding so why open up the pictures? especially now during a war? it doesn't add up besides political reasons in my mind.

maybe after the war is over we could open them to the public but not now.
 
so we can expect other countries to be perfect and condemn their actions, but then do the opposite ourselves? i understand no country will be perfect, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt try.
 
what countries are you talking about? Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan?

but i do agree, we should try but i dont hold a hope in my mind that we will get to that point.
 
as i said, i dont think we can ever be perfect. but id like to see us lead by example, and at least attempt to.
 
I think this quote rings true here... People are all willing to give up peoples' basic human rights for safety, though there is evidence that these harsh torture techniques weren't even needed, making this even worse.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin
 
Just wait, it's gonna get even more fun in the next few years!

It's statements like that, that make me not like you. The administration that was in office has hardly anything to do with war crimes, let alone most things people think the administrations are accountable for. They're just puppets.. I'm glad you have opinions on things, but you are too idealistic and try to push your shit..
 
i mean, we have the memos from people directing these acts. some of them were in the bush administration. cheney supported and encouraged it. rumsfeld did. rove did. all of those people were part of his administration.

who WAS responsible than, if his administration wasnt...
 
Not to sound like a radical, but.. check out who controls all the nations money, and who controls half our politicians agendas. It's not too hidden if you can find it.
 
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