Alec Baldwin killed a woman.
- Thread starter T.L.
- Start date
14336492:T.L. said:
If anything that works against your argument. He's been handling prop guns for years and the production team has done things safely.
Idk, it's weird that y'all are saying his fault and how much differently you would have done it. Obviously hindsight, and the future I see it.
Idk, I'm out of this thread. Blame whoever you want.
It's weird how giddy some people are about this. Some of the gun people seem pretty happy about this. Even the thread title is like "LOOK SEE! ha!"
Idk, have a bunch of guns, do whatever. Not sure why somebody dying has people so hyped.
Idk, have a bunch of guns, do whatever. Not sure why somebody dying has people so hyped.
Chunderface
Active member
14336493:steeze_louise said:
OMG dude I'm not talking about a license to own a gun. You are confused about what legal negligence is and when it applies, and also about on-set procedures regarding prop guns, which were talked about earlier in this thread, and how those procedures would relate to negligence.
**This post was edited on Oct 24th 2021 at 6:01:30pm
T.L.
Active member
14336495:theabortionator said:
huh? I'm saying he should have known to check the gun before starting a scene. At the very least for his own peace of mind.
The production team? I'm not sure what you mean.
But yes, of course people who have experience handling firearms would do things differently. There's 10's of millions of us that handle guns every single day with very few accidents because we do things a certain way. One of those things is to check to see if it's loaded. Literally every time you pick one up. Even if I watch someone right next to me cycle the action of a pistol before they hand it to me I'm going to do it again once it's in my hands.
T.L.
Active member
14336497:theabortionator said:
I said the same thing about that completely random gabby girl that people are still simping over and you seemed perplexed why someone would question the amount of news coverage a random girl was getting.
A hollywood celebrity, a household name, Alec Baldwin.. who happens to be an extremely anti-gun person.. who has used their celebrity status to disparage gun owners for years while making millions of dollars on film handling firearms... killed someone on the set of a movie with a gun..
Presumably on film, with probably dozens of witnesses present. People are discussing the incident and trying to figure out how it could have happened and where the blame should lie and now this is what's "weird" to talk about?
The irony here is t h i c k
I'm not giddy or hyped on someone dying. If that's the read you're getting from me then i dunno what else to tell ya.
qazwsxedc34
Active member
How the hell does that even happen? They don't use live rounds on set, did someone change the prop out for live rounds? Twas it a conspiracy to pin baldwin?
My theory is the special effects studio did it because they want everything to be simulated by a computer now. The 80's and 90's effects look more realistic than half the stuff coming out of hollywood now. It is highly likely that someone slipped in live rounds as a conspiracy to increase funding for special effects department.
I'm just kidding, idk
My theory is the special effects studio did it because they want everything to be simulated by a computer now. The 80's and 90's effects look more realistic than half the stuff coming out of hollywood now. It is highly likely that someone slipped in live rounds as a conspiracy to increase funding for special effects department.
I'm just kidding, idk
Chunderface
Active member
14336531:qazwsxedc34 said:
It looks like they are saying the crew used the gun for target practice nearby the set with live rounds, and then stored the unused live ammo in the same area as the blanks that were supposed to be used for the scene.
14336493:steeze_louise said:
Work-site usage of firearms is absolutely regulated and you do need to be licensed and certified to operate, handle, and hand-off prop firearms in such a working-environment.
This is not the backwoods of your uncle's 30 acre property in the ozarks, this is on an OSHA regulated movie set where there are people everywhere doing work, and if the AD shouts 'cold gun' if he hands it to you, it pretty much removes you from responsibility, seeing as it went through 3 different hands before it even touched yours.
This is essentially like saying someone is liable for the rental car that their company gave them the keys to having brakes that don't work that causes an accident that hurts someone. Do you expect just any old anyone to have to check the brakes on the rental car before they go drive it? No, because thats stupid as hell.
This has nothing to do with Alec Baldwin's stance on gun control... If Tom Selleck had been hired to be the actor on set, and did the exact same shit that Baldwin did, you wouldn't be saying a god damn thing...
You're just trying to make it all about what Baldwin advocates for (common sense gun control) rather than looking at the actual situation. It's a projection of prejudice and this is why you should probably never serve on a jury or be able to make decisions about anything for anyone in the future. Do us a favour and don't have children.
The fact of the matter is, there shouldnt even be a live round on this set, except for, and only during a specific scene where they might have a stuntman shooting a target or something... they certainly shouldnt have such a clusterfuck of a production environment to where a actual, loaded fucking firearm could be accidently handed off and discharged. Someone fucked up. It was probably not Baldwin himself.
arnie_grape
Active member
lot of guns on the set of team america too nobody died tho
qazwsxedc34
Active member
14336538:skeirman said:
Ahh, I see. That sucks. That is a poor, irresponsible move on their part.
MiIfHunter
Active member
14336549:TOAST. said:
Brutha laws have changed my friend
deathcookie
Active member
Quick question: If you are handed a gun that is loaded with blanks, do they look different when loaded than normal bullets?
Granby_killdozer
Active member
14336497:theabortionator said:
It might have to do with the fact that he supports arbitrary and unconstitutional gun laws such as magazine capacity limits and banning ARs owned by millions of Americans. Yet he managed to KILL someone due in part to his ignorance of the firearms he hates so much. I know he isnt the only factor or even the main reason it happened but you cant argue that it wasnt a factor. If youre going to publically support arbitrary bs like mandatory gun safes then you better be safe with firearms yourself. And he broke the first rule of gun safety...
VTshredder69
Active member
Trump should go on SNL and play Baldwin killing someone.
Now that would be funny
Now that would be funny
This whole thing could have been prevented if they had just given everyone a loaded gun on set.
....or at least thats what the NRA believes
....or at least thats what the NRA believes
Granby_killdozer
Active member
14337958:DingoSean said:
This whole thing could have been prevented if Alec had done the very first thing they teach you in an NRA gun safety class.
14337976:Craw_Daddy said:
'have a gun'
SlitherySnake
Active member
14337958:DingoSean said:
14337976:Craw_Daddy said:
14337977:DingoSean said:
???
Dustin.
Active member
14336423:Profahoben_212 said:
It is absolutely astounding that people think it matters that this happened on a movie set. It's a negligent discharge that killed someone. End of story. It doesn't fucking matter legally or theoretically if he was filming Dumb and Dumber 4 and trusted someone else to do basic firearms checks for him, it's HIS FUCKING FAULT. I'm astonished people are making excuses for such an obvious fault and lack of ownership. You can feel bad, you can shake your head, but only one person is responsible for a negligent discharge: the person who pulls the trigger.
Other people failed at their jobs too, but this is a pistol. Not a fighter jet. It's not a complicated machine. When you take ownership of it you own anything that comes flying out of the barrel. Hollywood needs to treat firearms as firearms and stop calling them bullshit things like "prop guns". Train anyone who is going to touch it how to clear it, like every other person on Earth who handles firearms. It's super simple and fucking idiotic to argue against considering the obviously stupid and avoidable consequences of treating guns as toys.
14336624:AaronO. said:
Had a chat with a friend about this. Brought up a case where a drunkass firing wildly up into the air killed an asparagus picker in my hometown.
"well man, that just happens"
Brought up Alec Baldwin
Entirely different answer...but that's just how things are nowadays.
Firearms are cool. The NRA sucks. There are a lot of people in the states that shouldn't have guns. Owning and knowing how to operate a firearm is good. Carrying a firearm that you know how to use is great. Open carry is stupid af.
Unfortunately, it's all about scoring political points. Not that that's new, just seems to be the popular thing among the common man now.
Just how things are
Granby_killdozer
Active member
I'm in agreement that the NRA sucks. Their organization is a scam but they do have a very good education program. If you want to give your money to an organization that will actually stand up for your rights then donate to Gun Owners of America
Chunderface
Active member
14337998:Dustin. said:
Says the guy that doesn't understand how negligence works.
WoFIowz
Active member
Yes, yes, and agree. I can also see a strong argument opposing this position of you three below, especially bringing up standards in the film industry. Of note, this was not the first time in this production that live rounds made their way "unintentionally" into a firearm, so when Baldwin shot the lady, this was the second time actual live rounds were in a gun and fired. By this point everyone knew of the previous issue and I'd argue should have been extra careful from all angles, including where you point that muzzle and squeeze the trigger. He was a producer so technically would that make him liable? I'd argue yes. At minimum civilly liable.
Ask yourself this. If this were any other scenario or production outside of Hollywood where someone was handed a gun and told it was unloaded....and then shot someone....straight to jail no questions asked. Think about that for a moment. Idgaf if you're Joe Biden. If you negligently shoot someone, that's on you and you alone. Enough excuses.
And this whole story sums up one simple fact that plagues our society. Negligent firearm injuries and deaths are 100% preventable and occur way too often. The key word is negligent. Guns don't just go off or shoot accidentally. It's either intentional or negligent. Too many people act like guns are either toys or super scary WMDs. If you choose to put a functioning firearm in your hand, you better goddamn know wtf your index finger is doing and know how to operate that piece of machinery. If you don't, then put it down. And gun laws aren't the answer, gun safety is; I've seen too many people "accidentally" shot from illegally obtained firearms.
Ask yourself this. If this were any other scenario or production outside of Hollywood where someone was handed a gun and told it was unloaded....and then shot someone....straight to jail no questions asked. Think about that for a moment. Idgaf if you're Joe Biden. If you negligently shoot someone, that's on you and you alone. Enough excuses.
And this whole story sums up one simple fact that plagues our society. Negligent firearm injuries and deaths are 100% preventable and occur way too often. The key word is negligent. Guns don't just go off or shoot accidentally. It's either intentional or negligent. Too many people act like guns are either toys or super scary WMDs. If you choose to put a functioning firearm in your hand, you better goddamn know wtf your index finger is doing and know how to operate that piece of machinery. If you don't, then put it down. And gun laws aren't the answer, gun safety is; I've seen too many people "accidentally" shot from illegally obtained firearms.
14336289:MiIfHunter said:
14336377:T.L. said:
14336434:steeze_louise said:
WoFIowz
Active member
14336495:theabortionator said:
I know you're out of the thread but I have to comment it only takes one mistake. Track record means nothing once you kill or harm someone, and this applies to any sector. Their processes in place aren't good enough to prevent harm, so it's up to them to revise them. There's a reason planes crash way less in the US than other countries and it's our safety checks and processes.
Things they could do (probably way more but here's what I got):
-Require an actor check immediately before use
-Keep all firearms and non-live ammunition in a separate warehouse with limited access and strict chain of custody.
-Utilize other methods of technology when selecting ammo (e.g. barcode scanning). Get some IS guys together and I'm sure they could barcode ammo, guns, you name it. Barcode scanning helps minimize the human error of things.
14336718:deathcookie said:
Meh, if you're stressed and tired and working too quickly maybe. They're not that similar though.
First is the blanks.
Second is 45 long colt (caliber used) in both fmj and lead (no jacket). Unsure which type was used. If it wasn't the fmj, then they look nothing alike. Fmj is most likely d/t penetration through and into next victim. Last is some designer ammo with a weird cross pattern similar to the blanks.
Dustin.
Active member
14336437:theabortionator said:
The only person responsible for ensuring a firearm is safe is the person holding it. It doesn't fucking matter that it's a movie set. If he drove "Prop automobile" through a crowd hammered because it was a movie, it's not the movie mechanics fault that he didn't even try to do his part in ensuring basic safety. Anytime anyone ever hands you a firearm, in any scenario....ever....you clear it yourself.
If they really want to have foolproof, truly 100% safe props, they should use guns that are props and not real firearms they call "prop guns".
SuspiciousFish
Active member
14338194:Dustin. said:
I agree with you to a degree but movies sets are unique in that they are the only environment where you are told to point an actual firearm at someone or toward people which you would never do in real life. If this was a Colt SAA and was on a table and the actor was told it was full of blanks and to pick it up and fire it at the camera then it is up to the professional armorer to ensure the proper blanks ammo etc was used. Colt SAA revolvers are not like newer revolvers where you can flip out the revolving chamber and inspect the rounds. They need to be pushed out through the gate one by one.
What basically happened was the idiot crew used a prop gun to plink shots with live rounds between takes and forgot to unload it when they brought it back to the set which is beyond stupid and criminal IMO. Live rounds were left in the gun and the armorer didn't do her job to ensure it was safe and the actor followed directions and shot someone.
I hold Alec Baldwin more responsible as the producer than the shooter in that half the crew walked out days prior due to unsafe conditions and he allowed the situation to happen despite multiple warning signs. It was his responsibility to not allow target shooting between takes, to ensure the professionals knew what they were doing and to account for safe conditions including not using real guns for these kind of shots.
SofaKingSick
Active member
14338194:Dustin. said:
that's not how it works on movie sets and that analogy is not an accurate one in the slightest. some people are really falling over themselves to make this baldwin's fault despite not knowing even the basics of how guns work on movie sets
SofaKingSick
Active member
14338304:r00kie said:
that's kind of the point here, "a firearm is a firearm is a firearm" isn't exactly true on a movie set-- the entire point of the set is that reality is being fucked with, blurring fake and real, and sometimes that involves the actor taking something that definitely looks like a gun (sometimes even a real gun) and pulling the trigger while aiming at or near somebody. in real life there is never a situation where i point a gun at something i don't intend to damage
so it's entirely different. the actor is not a gun expert and even if they were, their primary jobs would interfere with the gun safety aspect of it. do you want the actor being responsible for safety while also trying to be in character? of course not-- both jobs would suffer. so there are protocols and multiple supposed gun experts whose explicit job is to set things up so that they can hand the gun/prop to some dipshit actor and tell them "COLD GUN!" and the actor takes their word for it. this one was a revolver i think but they aren't always. if i'm an actor and i'm handed a prop beretta, do i unload it, check each round, put them back in the mag, then do the shot? no. it's a division of labor and the gun concerns are delegated explicitly to gun experts. on this set, they fucked up big time
could baldwin be charged in his capacity as a producer? i don't know enough to say. will he be charged in his capacity as an actor? no, not unless it's found that he made a mistake that caused pertinent issues.
like, say if it was a shot where he had blanks in his gun and he was supposed to shoot in the general direction of a far-off target, but instead ran over and shot from point blank and there was damage done, yeah he's obviously going to be in the hot seat. but if he just did his job as agreed to... it is not on him. these accidents are relatively rare and it's not because actors have been putting in effective performances as gun pros lol, it's because protocols are followed by professionals
armchair_skier
Active member
r00kie
Active member
14338318:SofaKingSick said:
Thars a wordy way to say that cause he's an actor he shouldn't be expected to know how to handle a weapon while handling a weapon. The fact that it's being pointed at other people is even more reason to be extra cautious and do a check before shooting. Let's put this in skiing terms. If someone hands me a beacon, I'm going to check it myself even if the guy who engineered it handed it to me and told me its good to go. Why? Becuase my life or someone else's may depend on it. Same thing here.
14338194:Dustin. said:
Yes, really good example there. If he fires a prop gun handed to him by the team he's basically driving a car hammered through a closed off street of food trucks or something. Seems legit
Cool analogy jpeg
SofaKingSick
Active member
14338341:r00kie said:
no, i directly addressed what you asked and you're just going back to the same riff (also i'm worried about y'all's understanding of analogies)
i think you guys just prefer your initial reactionary take rather than learning why you might be wrong, so have at it i guess. if any of you bozos* want to bet me that baldwin will be found responsible for the incident for not checking the weapon, be my guest and name the wager
*
r00kie
Active member
14338542:SofaKingSick said:no, i directly addressed what you asked and you're just going back to the same riff (also i'm worried about y'all's understanding of analogies)
i think you guys just prefer your initial reactionary take rather than learning why you might be wrong, so have at it i guess. if any of you bozos* want to bet me that baldwin will be found responsible for the incident for not checking the weapon, be my guest and name the wager
*
I'd bet he gets cleared too cause he's wealthy, famous, and can divert blame to the prop people like you're doing. Doesn't mean every single gun safety instructur isn't going to use this as an example of why you should personally clear a gun when it's handed to you.
SofaKingSick
Active member
14338545:r00kie said:
i'm wasting my time cause it's clear you'd never admit you're wrong on this regardless, but from what we know here the most analogous situation was brandon lee's death while filming The Crow. do you also think Michael Massee, the dude who pulled the trigger, "diverted blame" through wealth and fame?
r00kie
Active member
14338552:SofaKingSick said:
You're right, I'm changing myind on this cause the principles of gun safety don't change based on the setting. There is no denying that if baldwin knew how to clear the weapon himself and taken an insignificant amount of time to do so a death would have been prevented. That is fact.
Dustin.
Active member
14338452:theabortionator said:
It's about responsibility and ownership, which are unquestionable when you point a fucking gun at someone and pull the trigger. Since I'm probably the only person here who has actually done that, leave me alone with your stupid sarcastic bullshit about the responsibility of handling weapons. It's an immense weight I would never and will never leave to someone else to do for me.
Dustin.
Active member
14338258:SuspiciousFish said:
I 100% agree with you on his leadership failure as the producer, but if I was the person using the gun then I would stand there and watch it cleared and prepared every time. It's insane to point a firearm at someone and not be 1,000,000% sure it's clear. Even then, I would be uncomfortable with it because it's stupid.
Gun stores hand brand new, never loaded weapons to customers to look at 1000x a day and they clear the weapon every time. It's just something you do when the consequences are so serious. I carry a pistol in a tiny cockpit when I'm in combat and our Aircrew Flight Equipment act as the armorers and maintainers of the weapons. We stand there and watch them prep the weapon, then we take it and clear/prepare/load the weapon while they supervise. It's very simple, but taken very seriously. Every time.