Abolish Ski Resorts in Cottonwood Canyons

[byubound]

Incoming rant:

Not gonna lie to you guys, over the last couple years my distaste for ski resorts and the corporations that run them has been growing significantly. The new parking plan from alta is kinda the last straw for me. For those who haven't heard, alta ski resort wants to limit the parking lots at the top of little cottonwood canyon to lift ticket holders only, sharply limiting public land access for those who are not skiing at the resort. This includes terrain like Grizzly Gulch and the bowls on Cardiff and Flagstaff.

My new suggestion is to eliminate ski resorts in the cottonwood canyons. I won't comment here on how this could or couldn't be done, just making the point that the canyons would be better off without the ski resorts.

Problems abolishing the ski resorts in the cottonwoods would solve:

Silly expensive lift tickets

The exorbitant and rabidly rising cost of lift tickets is pricing a huge group of people out of the joys of skiing. Especially on leased public land like Alta, this seems unethical. New developments in alpine touring equipment are making it safer and more accessible than ever before.

Massive traffic in the canyons

Anyone who has skiied in the cottonwoods in the last couple years can attest to the huge backups and headaches the ski resorts are causing. This year, parking at alta is filling up well before the lifts even start running. If you can't make this time, sucks.

Pollution and wasteful behaviors by corporations operating on public land

Resorts like Snowbird claim to be stewards of the land they lease, while running massive hotels and attempting to expand and clear greater swaths of the Wasatch.

Scarcity of parking

Alta's new parking plan and the new paid parking system at Solitude last year are new ways for the ski resorts in the canyons to capitalize on the scarcity of parking they have created. The state of Utah is now considering multiple massively expensive investments in infrastructure including a billion dollar cog train, just to get people to a ski resort that prices much of the population out of skiing.

Ikon pass debate

I am an Ikon pass holder, because it was the most financially responsible way for me to ski this year. That being said, I totally get why people are frustrated with the Ikon pass system and the issues it causes. It doesn't need to be said, but no ski resorts in the canyons means no Ikon passholders in the canyons.

Issues with my proposal:

Avalanche control work

Lots of avy work in the canyons is done by the ski areas, which I admit is a good thing. However, I hope that if the ski resorts were eliminated, some work could be upkept by a small nonprofit group, in the same way areas like the Ouray ice park in Colorado are maintained by volunteers and donations. Of course, the UDOT could continue the avy work that they already do.

Avalanche education

There has been an uptick in avalanche related incidents this year because of a large influx of new backcountry users. This is certainly an issue. However, I hope that backcountry skiing and the related education could be the norm, instead of the exception. Avalanche education and responsibility could become as fundamental as basic ski lessons for kids if backcountry skiing grows significantly in popularity.

Concluding thoughts:

I'm no uphill purist or hater of lifts. On the contrary, most of my ski days this year have been inbounds. My issues with ski resorts continue to grow every year, and I am at the point where I feel like they outweigh the benefits of lift accessed terrain, at least in the cottonwoods. I believe that advances in ski touring tech and education have made it more accessible than every before, and corporations have made lift accessed skiing less accessible than in the past. Would getting rid of ski resorts reduce the number of people skiing? Of course, that's part of the reason it is an enticing option to me. At least it would be a system that would be more accessible to all and less impactful on the SLC community as well as the canyons.

Thanks for reading this far lol, I'd love to hear your thoughts!

 

[snowfinder]

nah

 

[jaybake]

Make Alta Great Again

 

[eheath]

Bro some of the shit you said is ludacris, I understand this is just an exercise of ranting, but you're completely ignoring the amount of money involved. Tourism is huge for SLC and Utah in general, you crazy if you think they'd shut down the most popular attraction in the state.

 

[ericforman]

Alright you kind of have two conflicting problems in what you said:

1. Skiing is too expensive (unfair)

2. There are too many people skiing (skiing is too cheap and has a lot of negative externalities, especially in LCC which is likely the most desirable place in the US to ski).

Typically this is "solved" by raising the cost: making parking very expensive, lift tickets very expensive, etc. to the point that traffic is manageable, the resorts make a bunch of money, and tolls etc. can be used to offset the environmental impact but that does seem "unfair" if you consider the land a public good so to speak.

I don't think shutting down the resorts is the solution. It sounds like you want some sort of pseudo communist regime where say there is a toll on LCC and its equal to x% of your income / wealth. So if you make 10k a year its $1, 100k a year its $10, a million $100, etc. Stick the money back into the environment and mess with the base price until you get the "right" number of people. This is obviously impossible, but sounds like what you are going for.

 

[ReturnToMonkey]

A better solution would just to be raze the snowbird hotels in place of parking lots and gtfo with that passholder only bullshit

 

[byubound]

Bro some of the shit you said is ludacris, I understand this is just an exercise of ranting, but you're completely ignoring the amount of money involved. Tourism is huge for SLC and Utah in general, you crazy if you think they'd shut down the most popular attraction in the state.

Lol I am 100% ignoring the amount of money involved. Just saying that if I could somehow snap my fingers and make the resorts disappear, many of the huge issues that I and many others have with skiing here would also be gone.

 

[byubound]

A better solution would just to be raze the snowbird hotels in place of parking lots and gtfo with that passholder only bullshit

Fair enough, I could get behind this.

 

[eheath]

Lol I am 100% ignoring the amount of money involved. Just saying that if I could somehow snap my fingers and make the resorts disappear, many of the huge issues that I and many others have with skiing here would also be gone.

Yeah we're talking about rewinding time 50 years and introducing the touring tech we have now in the 60s and maybe skiing would be more about backcountry skiing vs resort skiing. But you can't just change how people want to ski, most people want to ride lifts and hang out with their friends, or family, etc the type of skiing you want to do is less popular and less accessible, I don't think the canyons would necessarily be better of either way, depends on your definition of "better" and I think we would disagree on that.

 

[hi_vis360]

just go skiing somewhere else

people complain about traffic and shit on the way to mega resorts and its like dude, you're a part of that traffic. Sometimes it seems like the red snake is just one big line of utah "locals" complaining about the ikon pass or whatever when they're the ones creating and contributing to the problem

 

[byubound]

just go skiing somewhere else

people complain about traffic and shit on the way to mega resorts and its like dude, you're a part of that traffic. Sometimes it seems like the red snake is just one big line of utah "locals" complaining about the ikon pass or whatever when they're the ones creating and contributing to the problem

I have been trying to ski in other places this year, thanks. Kinda tough with covid and the like though.

Also, are you really going to discount arguments that may or may not have validity just because the person who brings up the point is 'part of the problem'? That doesn't really seem fair.

 

[hi_vis360]

I have been trying to ski in other places this year, thanks. Kinda tough with covid and the like though.

Also, are you really going to discount arguments that may or may not have validity just because the person who brings up the point is 'part of the problem'? That doesn't really seem fair.

I just think if you really don't want those ski resorts to exist, you shouldn't give them your business

 

[byubound]

I just think if you really don't want those ski resorts to exist, you shouldn't give them your business

I agree. Unfortunately, if I want to ski that terrain I have to give those resorts my business. Alta, Snowbird, Brighton and Solitude contain some really fun skiing.

 

[nolan_yager]

Alta can’t go out of business because if they did then suburban dads everywhere will have nowhere to buy those “alta is for skiers” T-shirts while on their holiday ski vacation

 

[hi_vis360]

I agree. Unfortunately, if I want to ski that terrain I have to give those resorts my business. Alta, Snowbird, Brighton and Solitude contain some really fun skiing.

yeah and myself and like a million other people agree with you - skiing in the cottonwoods is dope. That's why there are traffic jams and parking nightmares. I'm sorry but you can't ski some of the best and most easily accessible terrain in the entire world and then complain about it being crowded and run by money hungry corporations. That's what you should expect, and as long as you keep paying them money, why would they change?

I got sick of the powder panic and traffic in utah so I moved to Maine and I enjoy skiing so much more. I ski at a tiny shitty mountain, but people never complain about the conditions, there is never a lift line, and there is always plenty of parking. The mountain is publicly owned and is super cheap. Vibes are always on point. I get home from skiing and watch instagram stories of people stuck in traffic in the cottonwoods, laugh my ass off and give thanks that I don't have to deal with that.

 

[TRVP_ANGEL]

"Issues with my proposal"

Proceeds to completely disregard the fact that you are removing lift-accessed skiing

 

[byubound]

"Issues with my proposal"

Proceeds to completely disregard the fact that you are removing lift-accessed skiing

Yeah nah I am intentionally being pretty obtuse for the sake of argument here. This won't happen because people like lift-accessed skiing. I do too. Doesn't change my opinion that most of the issues that I have with skiing here would be solved if the ski resorts were gone.

 

[eheath]

Yeah nah I am intentionally being pretty obtuse for the sake of argument here. This won't happen because people like lift-accessed skiing. I do too. Doesn't change my opinion that most of the issues that I have with skiing here would be solved if the ski resorts were gone.

Thats like saying we could eliminate climate change if humans didn't exist, its just a silly argument.

 

[byubound]

Thats like saying we could eliminate climate change if humans didn't exist, its just a silly argument.

I'd argue its more like saying that we could alleviate climate change if we got rid of all cars. Of course it won't happen, but can't we move in that direction? We can ban the production of new ICE vehicles, can we slow the expansion of ski resorts and improve accessibility to backcountry?

**This post was edited on Mar 9th 2021 at 4:32:48pm

 

[eheath]

I'd argue its more like saying that we could alleviate climate change if we got rid of all cars. Of course it won't happen, but can't we move in that direction? We can ban the production of new ICE vehicles, can we slow the expansion of ski resorts and improve accessibility to backcountry?

**This post was edited on Mar 9th 2021 at 4:32:48pm

I mean you can ski BC in plenty of places in Utah, which im sure you are aware of. The amount of BC terrain is 100x of what is lift accessed my dude, ski resorts are hardly expanding.

 

[hi_vis360]

I'd argue its more like saying that we could alleviate climate change if we got rid of all cars. Of course it won't happen, but can't we move in that direction? We can ban the production of new ICE vehicles, can we slow the expansion of ski resorts and improve accessibility to backcountry?

**This post was edited on Mar 9th 2021 at 4:32:48pm

dude if every single skier started backcountry skiing that would be horrible for local wildlife. Having people concentrated in one area is generally good for the environment overall, kinda like how you should stay on hiking trails to minimize your impact. Its people sprawling out everywhere that disrupts nature the most

 

[jakeordie]

I'd argue its more like saying that we could alleviate climate change if we got rid of all cars. Of course it won't happen, but can't we move in that direction?

Can't you?

 

[byubound]

I mean you can ski BC in plenty of places in Utah, which im sure you are aware of. The amount of BC terrain is 100x of what is lift accessed my dude, ski resorts are hardly expanding.

DV has plans to add 8 lifts on 1000 acres. Snowbird wants desperately to push into AF canyon but keeps getting stopped by other user groups. I think that 'hardly expanding' is an understatement. That being said, I'm not concerned about the amount of land available to ski on. I'm more concerned with the impact the resorts have on traffic in the canyon and the impact they have on the accessibility of skiing.

 

[byubound]

dude if every single skier started backcountry skiing that would be horrible for local wildlife. Having people concentrated in one area is generally good for the environment overall, kinda like how you should stay on hiking trails to minimize your impact. Its people sprawling out everywhere that disrupts nature the most

Sure, but this is like saying that electric cars are bad for the environment because lithium mining is nasty stuff. It's true, but it ignores the larger picture. What about all of the emissions and waste that would be prevented if there weren't ski resorts? Snowcats, lifts, and other equipment take a heavy toll on the environment and I do not believe that everyone touring would be worse.

 

[ReturnToMonkey]

Sure, but this is like saying that electric cars are bad for the environment because lithium mining is nasty stuff. It's true, but it ignores the larger picture. What about all of the emissions and waste that would be prevented if there weren't ski resorts? Snowcats, lifts, and other equipment take a heavy toll on the environment and I do not believe that everyone touring would be worse.

Why not work towards carbon net zero ski resort operations? Electric cats, lifts, geothermal/solar heating, sustainable materials, etc. There's plenty we can do to make ski areas greener without abolishing them.

 

[byubound]

Why not work towards carbon net zero ski resort operations? Electric cats, lifts, geothermal/solar heating, sustainable materials, etc. There's plenty we can do to make ski areas greener without abolishing them.

I think these are awesome ideas, but environmental impact is only one of the problems created by ski resorts that I posted in my OP. Also, these things tend to end up making skiing more expensive and less accessible to the general public.

 

[dolanslebensraum]

If its their property they can do what they want. Sucks but yeah.

the thing about resort life that pisses me off is that the epa and government agencies basically give a monopoly to existing resorts by not letting new resorts get built on great mountains in utah colorado etc.

any old bitcoin billionaire should be able to start their own ski resort without having to massage big governments good graces clitoris.

 

[b0ss]

 

[hi_vis360]

Sure, but this is like saying that electric cars are bad for the environment because lithium mining is nasty stuff. It's true, but it ignores the larger picture. What about all of the emissions and waste that would be prevented if there weren't ski resorts? Snowcats, lifts, and other equipment take a heavy toll on the environment and I do not believe that everyone touring would be worse.

I don't think that's an accurate analogy, the way I'm thinking about it is everyone driving vs everyone taking a train

if we move towards literally every skier ski touring like you're suggesting, there would be people all over the mountains, hootin and hollerin, pissing, maybe shitting, eating, etc. While all of those things are fun and great, it's less disruptive to wildlife and the environment if people do all of those things in one spot. Kinda like the hiking trail comparison I made earlier. And there's no reason why snow cats and chairlifts can't run off of renewable energy.

 

[ReturnToMonkey]

I think these are awesome ideas, but environmental impact is only one of the problems created by ski resorts that I posted in my OP. Also, these things tend to end up making skiing more expensive and less accessible to the general public.

It's less expensive than putting in a huge fancy new lodge and hotel. It can be a selling point too, "First all-electric ski resort!" Would bring millenials in swarms. The savings with locally renewable heating pays itself off in 5-10 years, especially in cold climates, about equal to the return on investment of high speed chairs.

 

[GayWolf420]

Utah as a state just didn't masterplan anything to anticipate the growth in terms of like urban planning or whatever, infrastructure improvements, etc. We could've done something long before the congestion got to the point that its at, but our local leaders failed us and chose not to, or we just didn't press them hard enough because we never once thought in a million years that a major city less than an hour from good skiing would ever get crowded....

I guess I'm of the opinion that Utah just has a ton of people who like to ski and snowboard nowadays and it was only a matter of time. I'm not mad as someone who essentially grew up here (but also moved from elsewhere long ago), but I am certainly getting annoyed of all the complaining like its an all-of-a-sudden issue. This state is popular and we have to deal with it.

 

[byubound]

It's less expensive than putting in a huge fancy new lodge and hotel. It can be a selling point too, "First all-electric ski resort!" Would bring millenials in swarms. The savings with locally renewable heating pays itself off in 5-10 years, especially in cold climates, about equal to the return on investment of high speed chairs.

But come on, do you really think the resorts are going to pass these savings down to the customers?

 

[ReturnToMonkey]

But come on, do you really think the resorts are going to pass these savings down to the customers?

In terms of the health of our future, yes. Ticket prices, no but that's not what im arguing for. The affordable costs for the resort is just to show that price shouldn't be an issue.

 

[freestyler540]

Its ironic that the freeskiing community done this to itself. Count how many times skier said “you gotta come out here” in ads and movies. We made skiing cool again and this is what happends.

we should just ban all noobs

 

[BigPurpleSkiSuit]

This is such a big issue in my mind in general because I can't fault anyone for wanting to come enjoy skiing in the cheapest way possible. At the same time, having 30-1 hr long lift lines definitely detracts from the value of the skiing experience at places like Alta and Snowbird.

 

[Idahoe]

Y'all utah locals are some of the wackest mfs

 

[eheath]

Y'all utah locals are some of the wackest mfs

most of them moved here in the last 5 years too lol

 

[BigPurpleSkiSuit]

most of them moved here in the last 5 years too lol

I was born here, but also yes.

 

[GayWolf420]

and while we're on the topic of LCC, for what its worth and not to get all nostalgic but places like Snowbird lost its cool years ago when they got rid of the spring pass and like $40 tickets in the spring.....I remember they were charging like almost $100 a day to ski in may, they're fuckin wack nowadays with prices so yeah, don't give them money if you aren't down, which is totally fair lol

**This post was edited on Mar 10th 2021 at 12:29:43am

 

[byubound]

Its ironic that the freeskiing community done this to itself. Count how many times skier said “you gotta come out here” in ads and movies. We made skiing cool again and this is what happends.

we should just ban all noobs

Nah man I want skiing to be accessible to more noobs, honestly. Skiing is rad and the more people can experience that the better. Not to mention the benefits to health and the correlation between enjoying outdoor sports and being concerned with the state of the environment. My point is that ski resorts are doing lots of things that make enjoying skiing harder for everyone. This new Alta parking thing will make some of the most easily accessible backcountry in UT significantly less accessible. A day at snowbird for a new skiing would be like 200 bucks.

 

[eheath]

Nah man I want skiing to be accessible to more noobs, honestly. Skiing is rad and the more people can experience that the better. Not to mention the benefits to health and the correlation between enjoying outdoor sports and being concerned with the state of the environment. My point is that ski resorts are doing lots of things that make enjoying skiing harder for everyone. This new Alta parking thing will make some of the most easily accessible backcountry in UT significantly less accessible. A day at snowbird for a new skiing would be like 200 bucks.

Beginners don't ski backcountry dude.

 

[byubound]

Beginners don't ski backcountry dude.

Not right now they don't, but there is plenty of terrain that exists where it would be possible to teach someone to ski outside of resorts. Of course, the learning curve would be steeper. Is a steeper learning curve or a $200/day cost of entry more of a barrier to entry for skiing? Also, keep in mind that I'm mostly talking about the skiing in LCC and BCC here. There are resorts elsewhere that don't suffer from the overcrowding and price inflation to the scale we do here, and at those places the cost-benefit would look a little different.

 

[eheath]

Not right now they don't, but there is plenty of terrain that exists where it would be possible to teach someone to ski outside of resorts. Of course, the learning curve would be steeper. Is a steeper learning curve or a $200/day cost of entry more of a barrier to entry for skiing? Also, keep in mind that I'm mostly talking about the skiing in LCC and BCC here. There are resorts elsewhere that don't suffer from the overcrowding and price inflation to the scale we do here, and at those places the cost-benefit would look a little different.

Have you ever taught someone how to ski?

 

[byubound]

Have you ever taught someone how to ski?

Yes, I worked as an instructor for a season and have taught a few friends and family members.

 

[eheath]

Yes, I worked as an instructor for a season and have taught a few friends and family members.

Then you would know that teaching someone to ski without a groomed run is impossible.

 

[byubound]

Then you would know that teaching someone to ski without a groomed run is impossible.

As far as I can tell, recreational skiing has existed since the early 1900s and grooming ski runs has only been a thing since the 1950s. Where did the first 50 years of skiers learn to ski? Not to mention the advances in ski tech that make off piste skiing far easier now than ever before.

 

[eheath]

As far as I can tell, recreational skiing has existed since the early 1900s and grooming ski runs has only been a thing since the 1950s. Where did the first 50 years of skiers learn to ski? Not to mention the advances in ski tech that make off piste skiing far easier now than ever before.

Are you just a troll or do you just have nothing else better to do? Might be the most stubborn member i've ever seen on NS, you make a thread full of garbage takes and you can't even fathom to give up and admit you were just a little wrong, its fine tho, I'm done slamming my head into a wall.

 

[byubound]

Are you just a troll or do you just have nothing else better to do? Might be the most stubborn member i've ever seen on NS, you make a thread full of garbage takes and you can't even fathom to give up and admit you were just a little wrong, its fine tho, I'm done slamming my head into a wall.

Lol aight, thanks for challenging me and I mean that genuinely. I made this thread cause I think its a fun discussion, nothing more and nothing less. You don't have to respond if you don't want to.

 

[ReturnToMonkey]

Then you would know that teaching someone to ski without a groomed run is impossible.

False, I haven't been an instructor before but I tought someone how to stand up and lean forward and sorta stop in their yard. There wasn't really enough speed to turn but they kinda started leaning to one side or the other and change their angle downward. A nice groomer sure makes things easier sure but it's not iMpOsSiBlE

 

[eheath]

False, I haven't been an instructor before but I tought someone how to stand up and lean forward and sorta stop in their yard. There wasn't really enough speed to turn but they kinda started leaning to one side or the other and change their angle downward. A nice groomer sure makes things easier sure but it's not iMpOsSiBlE

thats not teaching someone how to ski dude. You can't teach someone how to ski without the ability to engage your edges, its the bases of skiing. Beginners don't want to ski powder, they want to ski a groomed run because they're scared shitless to move 5 mph.

 

[TRVP_ANGEL]

False, I haven't been an instructor before but I tought someone how to stand up and lean forward and sorta stop in their yard. There wasn't really enough speed to turn but they kinda started leaning to one side or the other and change their angle downward. A nice groomer sure makes things easier sure but it's not iMpOsSiBlE

I'm sure people would be dying to pay $200 for that lesson you're offering.