20/21 terrain park nightmare rumors
- Thread starter b0ss
- Start date
I know that Park City is going to cut 1 of 3 parks this year (likely neffland but nothing official). This isn't because of comps, it's because of budgets. I wouldn't be surprised if park crews have significantly lower budgets this year, causing for less parks/less features.
_mcjakk
Member
Honestly im surprised freestyle competitions even got canceled. Freeride competitions are still on but with more regulations. Anyways my home resort is Lake Louise which is def one of the bigger resorts out there and from what ive seen on their website, the parks are still gonna be up this season, so i dont see why other large resorts would shut their parks down
snowfinder
Active member
Make the mountain your park.
a_burger
Active member
I would expect some mountains to skip on their big jumpline or halfpipe, those cost a lot of snowmaking money if they aren’t built before energy prices go up (which given the priority to spread people out on as many trails as possible, is likely) but there isn’t really a good reason to cut down on other parks unless they are spread out in a way that requires extra staff to maintain them. I haven’t started back work yet but I haven’t heard any rumors of downsizing for our park or at any other boyne resorts
On the other hand I have a friend who works parks for a Vail resort and have heard things are run much more centrally there and there’s certain rules they have to follow (# of features on hill, jump sizes, rail lengths etc.) so if Vail leadership wants to downsize parks to save money this year I wouldn’t be surprised if it happens.
Ski areas as a for profit enterprise is fucking dumb
On the other hand I have a friend who works parks for a Vail resort and have heard things are run much more centrally there and there’s certain rules they have to follow (# of features on hill, jump sizes, rail lengths etc.) so if Vail leadership wants to downsize parks to save money this year I wouldn’t be surprised if it happens.
Ski areas as a for profit enterprise is fucking dumb
galardogod
Active member
14176794:a_burger said:
Can you expand on this? I’m actually curious.
GilsonSkis
Member
RIP. Say it ain't so
a_burger
Active member
14176806:galardogod said:
Theres an old saying that the fastest way to become a millionaire in the ski industry is to start off as a billionaire. And it's true, resorts take an absurd amount of money to operate, to the point that the return on investment is very small. But if you are operating a resort because skiing is important to you and you love the sport, lifestyle and community, ROI isn't going to be a big concern for you (so long as you break even)
If you are a publicly traded corporation however, and care a lot about ROI like Vail Resorts, when something happens like a poor winter, or, say a pandemic that results in economic downturn, you will do everything in your power to protect that ROI. This includes lowering the ski experience (making less snow, shortening your season, or cutting your terrain park budget) so your precious ROI does fine but the skiers (us) suffer.
Then next thing you know because of your cuts people start skiing less, the sport stagnates, kids don't pick it up cause there's no parks for them to ride, and boom next thing you know you can't even turn a profit in a normal year because participation has dropped too low and guess what? your precious ROI is in the dump now anyways. This hasn't happened yet but our industry is pretty young and it's a path I could see us easily sliding into in the long term.
Basically as long as stockholders are the ones in charge the ski experience isn't going to be the priority, and if it isn't then whats the point? A ROI that's already miniscule compared to any other industry? A much more sustainable model for the industry that benefits skiers is a workers co-op or private ownership assuming the owner isn't in it for the money (Boyne and POWDR are sort of examples of the latter, don't know if an actual workers co-op has been tried yet but skier/ski club co-ops have worked at places like MRG or Titcomb)
**This post was edited on Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:34:00pm
hi_vis360
Active member
another option is the ski hill being owned by the town like Camden Snow Bowl. The operations are subsidized by the taxpayers, and in return the local residents get discounted passes. I think BMOM is the same way? Basically its a public park for winter activities
14176837:a_burger said:
a_burger
Active member
14176865:pinkcamo1000 said:
Yeah that's another option as well. I don't think it's quite as sustainable though for larger areas, for example Black's budget has to be passed by town voters (annually I think?) which makes it kind of vulnerable. They at least have a pretty low operating cost but a larger resort in a much less populated probably couldn't function on taxpayer money alone.
14176837:a_burger said:
Park skiing is not integral to the success of the ski/snowboard industry, skiing has been booming since the 70s and parks just started coming around in the late 90s. Parks cost money, they cause injury and there are no where near the popular part of the mountain. Skiing is propped up by wealthy families travelling to resorts for vacation, spending thousands of dollars on lodging, rentals, retails, food/bev, transportation, etc. Skiing/snowbaording will thrive as a recreational sport until the snow stops falling, freestyle/park skiing could certainly die in the next 10 years.
ColoradoDogfart
Active member
if keystone dosent have a pre szn park WE BOYCOTT
ColoradoDogfart
Active member
14176873:eheath said:
STOP STOP STOP STOP STFU
14176876:pinkcamo1000 said:
What would you suggest to do differently? Ski resorts are expensive to operate, they need to make money and most resorts are owned by larger companies like Vail, Altera, Powdr, etc. You can't make some park-specific resort and expect it to thrive.
ColoradoDogfart
Active member
14176881:eheath said:
EHEATH JUST RUINED MY DAY #BANEHEATH
a_burger
Active member
14176869:eheath said:
It's not the 70's or the 90's anymore, skiing has to compete with the internet and video games for kids attention. I'd venture that parks are vastly integral to skiers under the age of 25, aka the future of the sport. All of my skier/boarder friends ride park, and if they don't they are at the very least inspired by park culture/media/movies. It's well known that Millennial participation is much lower then Baby Boomers, I bet that trend continues with Zoomers and terrain parks/freeskiing are a key piece of getting kids to ski/board.
I'd also argue that being "propped up by wealthy families" isn't "thriving"
Btw I also only bolded parks because it's relevant to the thread, there are plenty of other austerity measures resorts can take that very much effect older skiers too
a_burger
Active member
14176879:eheath said:
On a smaller scale things like co-ops is a solution, but the catch-22 with larger resorts is that they are so built up with non-skiing amenities it's hard to escape the current structure. I could see a decentralization of services ala european resorts where 1 company runs the lifts, another runs the food, another runs the housing etc. but that would probably first require a bankruptcy. Something similar happened to Sugarloaf in the late 80's where they offloaded their sewage plant and a large chunk of real-estate during bankruptcy
**This post was edited on Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:03:47pm
broken_skier0
Member
14176806:galardogod said:
I don't know how some of the small, indie hills manage to stay in business. How do any of the midwest hills turn a profit when you open mid-December, close early March, have to invest in snowmaking because you don't get enough natural snow, and charge $60 for a lift ticket.
207
Active member
14176888:a_burger said:
I agree with your point about Vail fucking everything for profits and that's why I think they're downgrading parks. It's weird because as park skiing gets into the more mainstream with social media the parks have only gotten worse. Meeks made a post about this too how all parks have gotten worse and peaked in 2014 or so maybe even 2016? Park City, Timberline (mostly in the summer the may park setup still fucks so heavy), Mount Snow, Keystone, they're nothing like they were in 2010-2016 era. Even Sunday River and Sugarloaf used to have way crazier builds and events than they do now. Go look at the setup the 1st year of T72...Sunday River will never ever come close to having a park that good because theres no money in it (shoutout Quinn tho he's the man) As the resorts got swallowed by the mega giants the mega giants cut park budgets and now we have what we have. The best bet for the future of parks are rope tows IMO. Those minnesota resorts will be sustainable till the day they die because that's all they have and its cheap af to keep the ropes going. Honestly if you wanna ski exclusively park I'd argue things have dramatically changed and utah and colorado are not the places to do it anymore...go post up in minneapolis and hit the troll, elm, or hyland ropes until your arms hurt.
hi_vis360
Active member
14176879:eheath said:
I think we already covered this in the thread, not every hill has to be operated for profit. Also the fact that Vail is cutting their budget is a sign that their business model that depends on tourism isn't fool-proof, does it not? I'm pretty sure my local hill will have the same budget because they serve the local residents and not tourists, they might even do better since people won't be traveling to ski as much this season.
Newschool skiing was founded by people who rejected the country-club esthetic that dominates the sport, take it from Eric Iberg on the new [tag=23396]@Level1[/tag] podcast. Sucking up to those types goes against the core culture of the sport.
Also for being the head moderator of a website designed to spread stoke about skiing you are shockingly negative all the time, I understand you're just trying to be realistic but I would rather this website be led by somebody who believes in the dream of a ski hill run by park skiers, for park skiers.
nmwninjart
Active member
14176896:broken_skier0 said:
Some hills here in MN / WI regularly open 1st weekend in November and have stayed open as long as mid April.
Last year, Wild mountain opened up for a Thursday at the end of October. It was like the 28th . That first day it was just a rope park running with several low rails but it brought so many excited kids out that evening.
**This post was edited on Sep 23rd 2020 at 7:30:48pm
jakeordie
Member
14176754:eheath said:
14176794:a_burger said:
popcorn.gif
14176837:a_burger said:
Resort town properties don't flip themselves.
14176879:eheath said:
How far from Gorgoza do you live?
14176888:a_burger said:
This guy gets it. By 2030 resort skiing will be nothing like it was for the past 20 years.
14176898:207 said:
http://woodwardparkcity.com
SuckleBrick
Member
honestly My park tried to scale up cuz of comps but like every year speed was a problem because they build it on a bad run. So i hope My park could make it smaller more flow and faster. I am not into comp i ski to have fun and progress
Obama_care
Member
Snowqualmie summit is cranking down on their parks this year. They never held comps but hella excited
Most mountains will still have parks. Hell a ton if mountains are still highering park crews at the moment. Will things be different at some mtns this year, possibly. I feel like Vail will have a bigger impact at places like bb and mt snow than corona. Who knows.
There are some mtns that build big anow use/time consuming features that are always at risk if not for many reasons. I wouldn't be surprised if any place didn't build a pipe, big jumpline etc.
It's hard to gauge how the season will fun here(hopefully smoothly) but there will def be parks for you to shred.
There are some mtns that build big anow use/time consuming features that are always at risk if not for many reasons. I wouldn't be surprised if any place didn't build a pipe, big jumpline etc.
It's hard to gauge how the season will fun here(hopefully smoothly) but there will def be parks for you to shred.
armchair_skier
Active member
Comps being canceled could be good for places with less resources. Our local usually stops rebuilding/updating parks in late January- early February because they need to build slope courses and a pipe for comps.
partyandBS
Active member
Read some posts so this could be a double.
My guess is parks will be small to start. I ylthink snowmaking at every resort will be entirely focused on opening as many lifts as possible. Spreading people out as quickly as possible will allow for higher capcitities and an elevated sense of safety for guests.
Plus the savings are huge. Last year without dew tour, Breck save 40 million gallons of water by not making the freeway jumps and scaling their pipe down to 18 feet instead of 21 feet.
I would guess that its not going to be a year for halfpipes rather, we will see an increase in rail features and hopefully that results in added creativity with park designs.
Also, I bet park crews got late starts and with restricted budgets there will be less new features made over this summer.
My guess is parks will be small to start. I ylthink snowmaking at every resort will be entirely focused on opening as many lifts as possible. Spreading people out as quickly as possible will allow for higher capcitities and an elevated sense of safety for guests.
Plus the savings are huge. Last year without dew tour, Breck save 40 million gallons of water by not making the freeway jumps and scaling their pipe down to 18 feet instead of 21 feet.
I would guess that its not going to be a year for halfpipes rather, we will see an increase in rail features and hopefully that results in added creativity with park designs.
Also, I bet park crews got late starts and with restricted budgets there will be less new features made over this summer.
SofaKingSick
Active member
14176869:eheath said:
dude are you kidding? things are very likely to get cut way back but "dead?" lmao get a grip
14177088:SofaKingSick said:
Vail is trying to get rid of all of their parks, eventually. 10 years might be a stretch with the olympics, but the number of parks in NA has been declining, superpipes don't exist outside of 2 or 3 resorts, I've been around this industry for 15 years things change fast.
SofaKingSick
Active member
14177097:eheath said:
the fact that pipes, which almost nobody uses and are super expensive, even still exist serves to show that even if things are cut way back, resorts will still keep park stuff around at some level if for no other reason than to be able to say they have it
ive been ""around this industry"" for 20 years, things change but "parks could certainly die in the next 10 years" is deep into internet comment hyperbole territory dude. let me know if you want to place a bet lmao
14177102:SofaKingSick said:
Well I even said 10 years is a stretch, but park skiing is not important to these large resort brands that are making all of the money, park skiing is a blip on the radar and its going in the direction of aerials and moguls, where the only reason to ski park is to go to the olympics. Like I said, this won't happen in 10 years maybe, but as you would know then being part of the "industry" (whatever you meant by that) you would know how much less money is in park skiing than there was 10 years ago.
rojo.grande
Active member
Here’s an outside view to all of this since the word optimism seems to have been thrown out the window. Coming from a place that gets almost zero snow (southern CT) it’s interesting to read through this having never experienced anything bigger than carinthia in mid season. HOT TAKE: As long as there’s snow, as long as there is a pvc tube somewhere, and a slight hill, were set. Say everything goes totally in the toilet somehow. Last time I checked, I don’t need a super pipe or a perfectly formed jump line to have fun. Sure, if I could cork 9 maybe eventually I’d miss it, but If we have homies and a combination of snow and something that probably shouldn’t be skied on, then the true passion will come thru. So what if places start to scale back a little? That’s sure as fuck not going to stop me from hitting up some other like minded people and going to find a log in the woods with a rack of beverages and a camping stove. Reading this thread is a quick way to let “the industry” scare you. At the end of the day, shit is just what you make it. So why not make the most of whatever you’ve got?
(I know this strayed from the topic at hand, but I felt this thread needed even a sprinkle of positivity)
**This post was edited on Sep 24th 2020 at 12:16:36pm
(I know this strayed from the topic at hand, but I felt this thread needed even a sprinkle of positivity)
**This post was edited on Sep 24th 2020 at 12:16:36pm
FruitBootPro
Active member
14176769:snowfinder said:
How are we supposed to find rails around the mountain
galardogod
Active member
I talked with a representative from Sunday River, she said no cuts had been made to the snowmaking budget and they have no plans to cut back on the terrain parks.
broken_skier0
Member
I know this is going to be unpopular, but it wouldn't be so bad if some of the larger features went away. I would rather see more intermediate parks with a nice progression than some 50ft. jump which only 20 people hit in a day.
ColoradoDogfart
Active member
14177105:eheath said:
thats why keystone had its largest and arguably best pre season park last year right....
ColoradoDogfart
Active member
14177160:galardogod said:
[tag=38820]@eheath[/tag]
14177183:ColoradoDogfart said:
What does Sunday River have to do with Keystone? Let me answer that question: Nothing. Vail is cutting budgets at parks this winter, they already cut half of Brecks park last year. Like I said, these big resorts don't really care about park skiing because it doesn't bring in any money, I'm not making this up, this is a reality of park skiing in the current ski industry.