What Frame Rate

[GeorgeMadison]

What frame rate should I be using to film? I know 24 is for cinematic and 30 for tv but you can go all the way up to 240+ depending on the camera. It seems like higher is better for action sports cause it gives you a smoother shot?

What about the project’s frame rate? Say I have two clips, one shot at 30 fps and one at 60 fps. If I set my project frame rate to 30 what happens to the 60 fps shot? And vice versa.

Finally, slow motion. Obviously a shot at 30 fps is going to look choppy in slo mo. What about 60 fps. Or would 120-240 be ideal?

The biggest thing I don’t understand is how an editing software adjusts to incorporate clips with different frame rates into a project with a set frame rate? Does it get rid of half the frames of a 60 fps shot if the project is at 30 fps?

 

[eheath]

Some choose to film at 24 if they know they aren't going to use slow motion, but I always shot 60fps no matter what. You could shoot higher frames, but most affordable cameras shoot 60fps at 1080p.

As for different fps clips in your project, say you have a 30fps sequence and you drop a 60fps video in there, it displays the video at 30fps. This doesn't make the frame disappear, you just can view them because the sequence is only showing you 30fps. This isn't really a problem at all, all that matters is how you export.

 

[Pilgore]

I believe most ski movies are done with 30fps and then slowed 80% and played at 24fps

 

[SmartWater]

I think it's not always so black and white which frame rate to use. It really depends on your style of shooting and editing, and how much youre planning in advance or during shooting. You might want 240fps for close up slow mo on a jump shot, and 60fps for the wide shot. But maybe you only have one camera and not reshooting for multiple angles and need the option of slow mo - in that case just always shoot 60 as Eheath said.

Personally I try to plan when something will be slow motion based on the trick or content, and so I interchange between 24 and 60 - always delivered at 24.

If I set my project frame rate to 30 what happens to the 60 fps shot?

What editing program are you using? I think Davinci handles frame rates differently than other nle's - I'm going to assume youre using premiere to make it easier for me to explain.

When you import 60fps into a 30fps project/timeline, it will still play back in real time. You will notice the footage feels more fluid, and has less motion blur. You need to interpret the footage as 30fps or use time remapping to slow it down 50% speed, in order to get the slow motion.

Obviously a shot at 30 fps is going to look choppy in slo mo.

Well yes but that also on depends what you're making that 30fps play back at. 30fps as 24fps is 80% speed as someone else said, which wouldn't be much slower but it wouldn't be choppy.



What about 60 fps. Or would 120-240 be ideal

60fps is great, 120 is awesome, I find 240 too much but each scenario has different requirements. 60fps at 24fps timeline is 40% of real time, 120fps is 20%, and 240 is 10% - that is to keep proper and not have clips that look like they're from Steep or Fortnite.

Does it get rid of half the frames of a 60 fps shot if the project is at 30 fps?

No it definitely doesn't do that, I believe the reason its doesn't has to do with frequency/hz. But its too late for me to research and check on that. If you transcode 60fps to 30fps then I believe it does delete or merge frames.

Also important to note that for whatever reason many cameras will tell you 24/30/60/120 fps, but you've gotta look in the manual/deeper settings to find its actually 23.976/29.97/59.94/119.88

 

[benzo]

I shoot at 60fps for action sports, then if you want creamy slo mo you can play it back at 24

 

[bbw.enthusiast]

anything under 300 fps is unwatchable

 

[aldicigg]

what shutter speed do you guys shoot at 60fps? the tradeoff with always shooting 60 at

 

[eheath]

what shutter speed do you guys shoot at 60fps? the tradeoff with always shooting 60 at

I shoot 1/125, if you can shoot 1/120 do that. Going higher isn't a big deal, but don't go lower or else you will have terrible motion blur.

 

[aldicigg]

what shutter speed do you guys shoot at 60fps? the tradeoff with always shooting 60 at

wtf, where's the rest of my post. Anyway what I was going to say is that by shooting 60fps 1/120 you get rid of the potentially desired motion blur (if you don't intent to export at 60fps). And if you ever tried longer shutter speed between 1/60 1/120 to find a sweet spot between 'natural' motion blur if exporting at 24 or 30 and slowmo that's too blurry.

I've never tried these yet because I'm still new to filming skiing. So is anything over 1/120 really too blurry for skiing? Do you mean only for the slow mo or would you set it 1/125 even when shooting at 24fps for example?

 

[eheath]

wtf, where's the rest of my post. Anyway what I was going to say is that by shooting 60fps 1/120 you get rid of the potentially desired motion blur (if you don't intent to export at 60fps). And if you ever tried longer shutter speed between 1/60 1/120 to find a sweet spot between 'natural' motion blur if exporting at 24 or 30 and slowmo that's too blurry.

I've never tried these yet because I'm still new to filming skiing. So is anything over 1/120 really too blurry for skiing? Do you mean only for the slow mo or would you set it 1/125 even when shooting at 24fps for example?

Doesn't really matter how you export it it, if you set your shutter below 120 you will have a lot of motion blur.

 

[IanAvery-Leaf]

its way easier said than done, but I always try and edit in my head while shooting skiing and shoot at the speed I intend on using in the edit

so for normal full speed I shoot 24p 1/50th shutter (Sony doesn't give 1/48th, 1/120th, 1/240th option for exact doubling of the framerate but it's close enough to not matter IMO)

for regular slow motion 60p I shoot 60fps 1/125th shutter and slow down to 40% to make it 24fps, and as much 80% speed as possible to avoid the 3:2 pulldown that makes full speed 60fps exported at 24fps look jumpy/stuttery since 60/24 doesn't divide evenly

for further slow motion 120p with a 1/250th shutter I really try and avoid much of it being used in full speed since there's not nearly enough motion blur to make it look good and match the 24p content IMO, I slow it down to 20% to get 24fps, sometimes 40% ramped into 20%.

It doesn't always work out exactly and I always end up with a few shots that I wish were X framerate instead of Y, but I find the effort way worth it rather than shooting at all one framerate with a variety of speed. But I also am obsessed with the 180° shutter rule that many filmers take less as a "rule" and more of a "suggestion", it's all personal preference in the end so play around with the options you have available and find what aesthetic you like the most

 

[isaacwrong]

Not sure if it's wrong to do but I've over cranked shutter while shooting lax at 60p to 1/800 and even more to maintain f2.8 without an ND, feel like in sports you don't really want motion blur especially if you plan on slowing down in post

 

[IanAvery-Leaf]

feel like in sports you don't really want motion blur especially if you plan on slowing down in post

the lovely thing about creative endeavors is there's not truly a right or wrong, but for the sake of more transparency/guidance to those reading I strongly disagree with this statement.

Viewing pixels on a flat 2D plane, your eye needs guidance for what to look for, thats where both depth of field and motion blur come into play. If you're quickly panning with a skier horizontally in real life, your eye can lock into the skier and separate the background without issue. The same scene on film with a 1/800th (or similar super high shutter) and viewed on a screen, your eye has no way of separating between the skier and the background that is moving by, which IMO is extremely headache inducing and looks amateur.

Shooting at a "proper" 180° shutter (or at the very least much closer to it than high 1/800th) brings back natural separation between foreground and background, and guides the eyes effectively (just like a shallow depth of field, and both can be used in combination to further the guidance). The separation also helps with the viewers sense of speed, since instead of stuttering by, what's too fast to reasonably view just blurs right by and again naturally guides the eyes to where they need to be. Theres a reason an old iPhone 5S with an ND filter + proper shutter speed looks leagues better than any modern flagship 4K crazy ultra ridiculous phone without one, the key is the shutter speed.

 

[isaacwrong]

^tru depends on the composition of the shot and what your shooting, trying to capture a person skiing much different than say a football pass, basketball shot etc

 

[aldicigg]

for regular slow motion 60p I shoot 60fps 1/125th shutter and slow down to 40% to make it 24fps, and as much 80% speed as possible to avoid the 3:2 pulldown that makes full speed 60fps exported at 24fps look jumpy/stuttery since 60/24 doesn't divide evenly

for further slow motion 120p with a 1/250th shutter I really try and avoid much of it being used in full speed since there's not nearly enough motion blur to make it look good and match the 24p content IMO, I slow it down to 20% to get 24fps, sometimes 40% ramped into 20%.

How important would you say is matching the natural framerates with slow motion? Say 40%/80% for 60p footage in 24p timeline as opposed to just using whatever speed you like? What about speed ramping? Is it that noticeable in the result you'd rather avoid it?

 

[gravel]

How important would you say is matching the natural framerates with slow motion? Say 40%/80% for 60p footage in 24p timeline as opposed to just using whatever speed you like? What about speed ramping? Is it that noticeable in the result you'd rather avoid it?

it is important that you hit the right rate change for slow motion or you will get drop frames. for example, 30fps footage in a 24fps timeline will have odd choppy motion to the video because every 6th frame is dropped. similarly if you slomo 60fps footage you have to hit a rate that matches the timeline framerate, which you have got correct at 40% & 80%. there are some other random rates that might be exceptions that the drop frames don't really affect the playback.

 

[gravel]

what frame rate you film at is decided by the frame rate you want for your project.

if you are shooting a 24fps project, you can use 30fps footage but it will look bad because of drop frames. if you are shooting a 30fps project you can't use 24fps footage or you will get duplicate frames.

24fps is more "cinematic", as you know, 30fps is just a bit more lifelike. for skiing and action sports i think that 30 should be the minimum framerate. that said, the movies i have made in the last year have all been 24fps since andrew prefers that style.

with 24fps you can have slower slow motion because you can slow 60fps footage down to 40%, where the max is 50% in a 30fps timeline.

technically you have drop frames when using a 60fps footage at normal speed in a 24fps timeline, but it is not very noticeable. if you are using 60fps in a 30fps timeline, there are no drop frames.

 

[GeorgeMadison]

Thank you for the drop frames info that is what I was trying to get at in my first question. How come there are no drop frames when you use 60 frames per second in a 30 fps timeline? Does every other frame somehow not get dropped?

And if you get repeat frames for a lower frame rate in a higher timeline wouldn’t it be more noticeable or have I just never actually done that?

Also is there anything wrong with exporting in 60 fps? I have been doing that. Does it look less natural or something? If I’m using all 60 fps footage shld I still export in 30 fps?

what frame rate you film at is decided by the frame rate you want for your project.

if you are shooting a 24fps project, you can use 30fps footage but it will look bad because of drop frames. if you are shooting a 30fps project you can't use 24fps footage or you will get duplicate frames.

24fps is more "cinematic", as you know, 30fps is just a bit more lifelike. for skiing and action sports i think that 30 should be the minimum framerate. that said, the movies i have made in the last year have all been 24fps since andrew prefers that style.

with 24fps you can have slower slow motion because you can slow 60fps footage down to 40%, where the max is 50% in a 30fps timeline.

technically you have drop frames when using a 60fps footage at normal speed in a 24fps timeline, but it is not very noticeable. if you are using 60fps in a 30fps timeline, there are no drop frames.

 

[gravel]

Thank you for the drop frames info that is what I was trying to get at in my first question. How come there are no drop frames when you use 60 frames per second in a 30 fps timeline? Does every other frame somehow not get dropped?

And if you get repeat frames for a lower frame rate in a higher timeline wouldn’t it be more noticeable or have I just never actually done that?

Also is there anything wrong with exporting in 60 fps? I have been doing that. Does it look less natural or something? If I’m using all 60 fps footage shld I still export in 30 fps?

sorry. there are drop frames using 60 in a 30fps timeline. but it is on even intervals so the motion of the footage is not affected - it removes exactly every other frame. therefore the motion between frames is constant. if you are using 30fps footage in a 24fps timeline, your drop frames are at uneven times, it will drop every 6th frame. so now there are 6 little skips in each second and the rest is fluid. does that kind of make sense?