UnCollege

Snowcase

Active member
I know it's summer and college is probably the last thing on your mind right now but I want to get some opinions from you guys on whether you think college is worth the money and why. You can either reply here, on http://twitter.com/uncollege or http://facebook.com/uncollege. If you post on Twitter or Facebook with an interesting response I'll post it for more discussion there.

To preface this a bit, http://UnCollege.org is movement dedicated to changing the notion that college is the only path to success. Dale, the founder, is one of the first recipients of Peter Thiel's 20 under 20 fellowship program in which he received $100,000 to drop out of college and pursue his own path (http://www.thielfoundation.org/index.php?option=com_content&id=14:the-thiel-fellowship-20-under-20&catid=1&Itemid=16). UnCollege has been featured on CNN.com, Fox News, NPR and many others.

I'm the Ambassador of Social Response (Yeah, I'm reppin Orage in my profile pic on the site) and part of my job is to figure out what people like you really think of college so let's hear it.
 
i think college is what you make of it. it's not the good old days, where a college degree lands you a job, and i see a lot of kids wasting their time there. i think it's an incredible social experiment, but a damn expensive one. when i get out of school, my undergrad degree will have cost over $200,000...i personally think thats a lot of money to be wasted in the classroom, but if you know what you're doing with college, it can be a life changing experience. however, if you're the type of person with a plan and some drive, college isnt necessary anymore. its a curious double-edged sword.
 
I think with this day and age where you can get nearly nowhere in life expect for under certain amazing circumstances this idea is just the kind of thing we need to break the trend. I do support college..goin off to DU next year..i think one of the reasons i really am going to college is the fact that i wana be successful..if there were more options that seemed like i could make something of myself without going to school for another 4+ years i would totally go for it..i like their idea.
 
correction... "nowhere in life except for under certain amazing circumstances...without having a college degree." forgot to put that in there
sorry for dubpost
 
yea i agree its pretty rare to be succesful without a college degree in todays day and age. Not saying it isnt possible but very very hard, A movement for not going to college is so dumb. I dont know what your definatlon of success is op, but where i come from, there isnt one succesful person around without a degree.
 
Well where i come from i personally know at least around 10 adults that didn't go to college and are damn successful, its all about who you know
 
This is true for me too. Most of the older people I'm around are successful and none of them went to college. They all own their own businesses and drive nice vehicles, live in big houses, and have hot stay at home wives. And I know college graduates who cant even pay their rent. I know this isn't the norm, but it proves you don't NEED college to be successful.

You NEED to be a hard worker and driven to be successful. If you pair that with college then you're getting somewhere.
 
once again...i agree its all about who you know int todays day and age.. I just said that for the most part, generally most people who dont go to college arent succesful. i wasnt saying people dont exist out there. And what is your definition of being succesful
 
Today's adults entered the work place in a different time in the world. This isn't a matter of the past it is a matter of the present and the future. Degrees can do alot for you today but it is important to be smart about it. For example, there are lots of 2 year dergrees that are in more demand and pay more then 4 year ones. Also, it is much cheaper and in most cases equivalent to go to a state school then private.
 
Thanks for all the answers guys. Got a couple follow up questions for you.

Do you think people who work hard are more likely to go to college just because they are hard workers and that's the best way they know to be successful?

Would someone who is just as dedicated do as well without going to school? And why?

Do you think YOU would be successful in life if you didn't go to college?

What is the most important thing you plan to get or have gotten from college? Knowledge, connections, discipline, etc.
 
Q)Do you think people who work hard are more likely to go to college just

because they are hard workers and that's the best way they know to be

successful?

A)Yes, I feel that along with other qualities drive people to get higher educations and pursue success.

Q)Would someone who is just as dedicated do as well without going to school? And why?

A)Depends, there are always anomalies and people that can learn by other means. Also though, their are many professions where higher education is mandatory so to be successful in those fields the answer is no.

Q)Do you think YOU would be successful in life if you didn't go to college?

A)Maybe in a different day and age. I have changed so much since college, and I think about where I would be if I wouldn't of attended. I defiantly do not think I would have the same pay check or stability that I have now. I personalty would not accept anything less of my self by not attending college though.

Q)What is the most important thing you plan to get or have gotten from college? Knowledge, connections, discipline, etc.

A)College is about higher education. This education comes in many different forms and can affect an individual greatly. In my case the most important things that I currently feel I have gained from college is having matured and grown my knowledge. I could have gotten a job, connections and even disciplines outside of college but college is way more then that. It has introduced me to what the world has to offer and brought me outside of just my small world. I am always looking to learn now and grow as an individual now and see things from many more perspectives.
 
So what if you didn't go to school? Would you have stayed wherever you were or explored? It sounds like you would have gone out and done your own thing irregardless. What if college wasn't an option? If you don't mind me asking, how much debt are you in/if you are, when will it be payed off?
 
sounds like it was made for losers to make themselves feel better. college is the best path to success for the greatest number of ppl, end of story.
 
Yup. I, for sure, am definitely a loser. So is everyone else who has the balls to stand out and become successful without going to college.
 
I truly don't know what I would be doing if I wouldn't have gone to school. I am almost positive like I said before that I would not be where I am at my age in terms of job, location and maturity. Maybe I would be in some factory or warehouse working my way up learning the hard way. I can be shy/modest some times so I am not sure how much exploring I would be doing. I prefer safe/stable environments to explore in.

If college wasn't an option I would be working and trying to learn on my own. The truth is though I feel it is human nature to pursue higher education so college is almost a mandatory evil. It is a safe, stable and structured means to gain the higher education that people need and want.

I am $20,000 in debt. I could pay that all off in under a year in good circumstances, but I will drag it out for a couple years so I can have money in the bank and ski more.

 
College is for getting wasted and banging as many girls as you can. Let your friends pile up debt and then go see them on the weekends
 
Thanks for the reminder. I would also like to add that the girls, beer and parties are sick too. lol
 
i like the system here in austria. universities are pretty much for free and still a lot of people dont do it for "money" related reasons. like missing out on 4 years of paycheck, etc

but i think its great, but its not for everybody. contrary to the system in the us (which i heard from several exchange students isnt all that hard) its just not possible for everybody (i dont say everybody can make it over there, but being more of a "customer" than a "student" certainly should help)

bottom line: free universities destroy almost this whole "is it worth it"-discussion. and its not like everybody is abusing it, surprisingly enough its pretty legit.

i think its great because it doesnt depend on how much your parents make. you get the same education. whereas i feel like in the us its more like, you have money and you go to an upper elechon college. passing there will lead to a better job than doing a great job on a state college.

a friend of mine actually did an exchange semester in harvard, so i know kinda whats up
 
This, I see a lot of kids wasting time and money in college. Personally its worth it all because my dream in life is to be a high school teacher and I can't do that without a college education. I feel about 25% of my school legitimately just went to party first and then care about education as a second. Not to say you can't party but kids who you can tell have no cares about their education.
 
Your definition of success is obviously much different than the rest of the world. Do you know the % of people who go to college? Who graduate? Who ACTUALLY use the skills they learned in college? No, you don't. So how can you possibly make a statement like that?
 
Just to start off, I'm 17 and live in Canada.

It seems like to be successful in the US, you need a university degree, but in Canada you don't.

There are so many options in Canada for job that do not need a university education that are extremely important, like working in the trades. With the baby boomers retiring soon the trades is a huge sector that needs filling in Canada, and you don't need a degree.

Thats just what i think.
 
Depends what you want to do. I want to do some type of science/chemistry research job. I'm majoring in biochemistry. Now you can't exactly learn those skills elsewhere, or do a job of this type without a college education. But there's others who will be successful without college, or without using what they learned. It is what you make of it though. Of course it does matter what school's name is on your degree, but you could go to yale and not learn shit, while somebody who works their ass off in a decent community school will come out more job ready and smarter.
 
College (And graduate school) is only worthwhile for certain degrees and programs. Nominally those are the sciences, Economics and **business programs, Business is hard to be successful if you're not in an ivy league school or community college (community college is dirt cheap and teaches you how to run a business from scratch, wheras Ivy league preps you and gives you opportunities for serious corporate work.)

Sciences like psychology and sociology are only worth it if you are at the top of your class AND go to graduate school, wheras engineering, physics, biology and chemistry have broad potential for research and development. Most of these require graduate schooling as well. Health sciences will never lose funding and will always have jobs available that aren't shit.

I find art school completely pointless (why not just take a few classes and spend what you would on tuition on art supplies?) English and the classics are a waste of money unless you want to teach and there are many other examples of majors that are like this where you could simply buy a book, read it for thousands of dollars cheaper and end up with the same job opportunities.

The fact is that college is a scam for what my guess is 80% of the people that go there. If you go in, party all the time, get mediocre grades and graduate you aren't guaranteed shit, in fact you're pretty screwed for the rest of your life and basically live as an indentured servant. The fact that it's advertised as a post highschool party fuck fest and anything other than a chance to work your ass off for an OPPORTUNITY to make good money and work in an interesting field of study disgusts me.
 
yeah, definitely interested. i feel like nearly everthing i have learned in college, i could have learned on my own interest/time for a fraction of the cost. it does have its bonus points though. i just think it's bullshit that you have to have this "stamp" of a approval (AKA a diploma) to get a decent job nowadays. it's like a pissing match of who's more qualified than the next person.
 
even though i am pro university in general, this is true. i hate this "stamp" that you are qualified when there are other ways to find out how qualified you are.

i hate the upper elechon college/private school stamp vs public school/regular college thing even more.

i go to LFU in austria for economics. like 20 meters down the main entrance, there is a "private" college (MCI) for economics. most of the students there have their head up their own asses and all companies suck the graduates dicks. but one of my best friends goes there and he just tells me how it is there and its not like they make wine out of water. they do the same stuff as we do, not different at all imo, some stuff is even worse (other things also better)...

but employers see the "MCI" label and think of a elite student, which is not true at all.
 
i'm generally pro university as well, but i don't think 90% of the people that go through the motions of it should ever be there int eh first place. they could be spending their time being much more productive members of society. don't get me wrong based off my post, i've gained a lot of great knowledge studying what i do (natural resource management/sustainability), but i think a lot of non-science majors are bullshit, give-me-your-money-and-here's-a-stamp-to-get-a-job certificates. also, going from a private college like DU to a public school like CSU where I now have instate and get just as good an education makes me dislike the institutionalization of college even more. collge shouldn't be available to those that can afford it, it should be free for those who wish to attend. inb4 omg socialism.
 
Knowledge should be free and shared. Hoarding knowledge or forcing people to pay for it is holding society back. Agreed?
 
imo college is what you make of it and what you intend to do. I'd say college isnt for 50% of people, either because they simply dont need it for whatever they are trying to pursue, or they just don't give a fuck, party way too much and dont actually come out of it with any type of education, just a piece of paper saying they do. If you're trying to be a doctor, then you need that degree, but otherwise why?

however, unless you have impecible work experience in the field you are trying to pursue, you WILL need that piece of paper saying you're educated. It's just how the world works now, and how competitive the job market is. But if you're trying to open up your own lawn mowing business, you dont need a college degree. Or even a ski shop for that matter, sure you might want some background on how to run a business, but you could always pay people to deal with that for you. No college education is going to teach you about skis or lawn mowing.

knowledge and experience in whatever subject you're working on is key, not necessarily a piece of paper. if you need the college education to get that knowledge and experience (like a doctor), then its obviously important
 
What would be the incentive to teach, write and research. Knowledge is not free even if you do not go to college. Nothing in life is free.
 
not to be rude at all but that system also doesnt breed as good of universities. Do you guys have a single college in the top 100 in the world? I really doubt you do. For me I know that to be successful in the medical field I need higher education. You cant go out of high school and start opening people up or know whats required about the human body. I know that I have learned a TON of stuff in college so far that I wouldnt have known otherwise, and I feel that it has made me a more rounded individual. Now college IS free for me, so it is a much easier decision, but i still feel like in most cases it is necessary
 
It's only about six pages, but all of you need to read this: http://moreintelligentlife.com/story/david-foster-wallace-in-his-own-words. Known as This is Water or The Kenyon Commencement Speech, one of our generations lead writers, David Foster Wallace, explains the value of college. I've also copied and pasted it below:
If anybody feels like perspiring [cough], I'd advise you to go ahead, because I'm sure going to. In fact I'm gonna [mumbles while pulling up his gown and taking out a handkerchief from his pocket].) Greetings ["parents"?] and congratulations to Kenyon's graduating class of 2005. There are these two young fish swimming along and they happen to meet an older fish swimming the other way, who nods at them and says "Morning, boys. How's the water?" And the two young fish swim on for a bit, and then eventually one of them looks over at the other and goes "What the hell is water?"This is a standard requirement of US commencement speeches, the deployment of didactic little parable-ish stories. The story ["thing"] turns out to be one of the better, less bullshitty conventions of the genre, but if you're worried that I plan to present myself here as the wise, older fish explaining what water is to you younger fish, please don't be. I am not the wise old fish. The point of the fish story is merely that the most obvious, important realities are often the ones that are hardest to see and talk about. Stated as an English sentence, of course, this is just a banal platitude, but the fact is that in the day to day trenches of adult existence, banal platitudes can have a life or death importance, or so I wish to suggest to you on this dry and lovely morning.Of course the main requirement of speeches like this is that I'm supposed to talk about your liberal arts education's meaning, to try to explain why the degree you are about to receive has actual human value instead of just a material payoff. So let's talk about the single most pervasive cliché in the commencement speech genre, which is that a liberal arts education is not so much about filling you up with knowledge as it is about "teaching you how to think". If you're like me as a student, you've never liked hearing this, and you tend to feel a bit insulted by the claim that you needed anybody to teach you how to think, since the fact that you even got admitted to a college this good seems like proof that you already know how to think. But I'm going to posit to you that the liberal arts cliché turns out not to be insulting at all, because the really significant education in thinking that we're supposed to get in a place like this isn't really about the capacity to think, but rather about the choice of what to think about. If your total freedom of choice regarding what to think about seems too obvious to waste time discussing, I'd ask you to think about fish and water, and to bracket for just a few minutes your scepticism about the value of the totally obvious.Here's another didactic little story. There are these two guys sitting together in a bar in the remote Alaskan wilderness. One of the guys is religious, the other is an atheist, and the two are arguing about the existence of God with that special intensity that comes after about the fourth beer. And the atheist says: "Look, it's not like I don't have actual reasons for not believing in God. It's not like I haven't ever experimented with the whole God and prayer thing. Just last month I got caught away from the camp in that terrible blizzard, and I was totally lost and I couldn't see a thing, and it was 50 below, and so I tried it: I fell to my knees in the snow and cried out 'Oh, God, if there is a God, I'm lost in this blizzard, and I'm gonna die if you don't help me.'" And now, in the bar, the religious guy looks at the atheist all puzzled. "Well then you must believe now," he says, "After all, here you are, alive." The atheist just rolls his eyes. "No, man, all that was was a couple Eskimos happened to come wandering by and showed me the way back to camp."It's easy to run this story through kind of a standard liberal arts analysis: the exact same experience can mean two totally different things to two different people, given those people's two different belief templates and two different ways of constructing meaning from experience. Because we prize tolerance and diversity of belief, nowhere in our liberal arts analysis do we want to claim that one guy's interpretation is true and the other guy's is false or bad. Which is fine, except we also never end up talking about just where these individual templates and beliefs come from. Meaning, where they come from INSIDE the two guys. As if a person's most basic orientation toward the world, and the meaning of his experience were somehow just hard-wired, like height or shoe-size; or automatically absorbed from the culture, like language. As if how we construct meaning were not actually a matter of personal, intentional choice. Plus, there's the whole matter of arrogance. The nonreligious guy is so totally certain in his dismissal of the possibility that the passing Eskimos had anything to do with his prayer for help. True, there are plenty of religious people who seem arrogant and certain of their own interpretations, too. They're probably even more repulsive than atheists, at least to most of us. But religious dogmatists' problem is exactly the same as the story's unbeliever: blind certainty, a close-mindedness that amounts to an imprisonment so total that the prisoner doesn't even know he's locked up.The point here is that I think this is one part of what teaching me how to think is really supposed to mean. To be just a little less arrogant. To have just a little critical awareness about myself and my certainties. Because a huge percentage of the stuff that I tend to be automatically certain of is, it turns out, totally wrong and deluded. I have learned this the hard way, as I predict you graduates will, too.Here is just one example of the total wrongness of something I tend to be automatically sure of: everything in my own immediate experience supports my deep belief that I am the absolute centre of the universe; the realest, most vivid and important person in existence. We rarely think about this sort of natural, basic self-centredness because it's so socially repulsive. But it's pretty much the same for all of us. It is our default setting, hard-wired into our boards at birth. Think about it: there is no experience you have had that you are not the absolute centre of. The world as you experience it is there in front of YOU or behind YOU, to the left or right of YOU, on YOUR TV or YOUR monitor. And so on. Other people's thoughts and feelings have to be communicated to you somehow, but your own are so immediate, urgent, real.Please don't worry that I'm getting ready to lecture you about compassion or other-directedness or all the so-called virtues. This is not a matter of virtue. It's a matter of my choosing to do the work of somehow altering or getting free of my natural, hard-wired default setting which is to be deeply and literally self-centered and to see and interpret everything through this lens of self. People who can adjust their natural default setting this way are often described as being "well-adjusted", which I suggest to you is not an accidental term.Given the triumphant academic setting here, an obvious question is how much of this work of adjusting our default setting involves actual knowledge or intellect. This question gets very tricky. Probably the most dangerous thing about an academic education--least in my own case--is that it enables my tendency to over-intellectualise stuff, to get lost in abstract argument inside my head, instead of simply paying attention to what is going on right in front of me, paying attention to what is going on inside me.As I'm sure you guys know by now, it is extremely difficult to stay alert and attentive, instead of getting hypnotised by the constant monologue inside your own head (may be happening right now). Twenty years after my own graduation, I have come gradually to understand that the liberal arts cliché about teaching you how to think is actually shorthand for a much deeper, more serious idea: learning how to think really means learning how to exercise some control over how and what you think. It means being conscious and aware enough to choose what you pay attention to and to choose how you construct meaning from experience. Because if you cannot exercise this kind of choice in adult life, you will be totally hosed. Think of the old cliché about "the mind being an excellent servant but a terrible master".This, like many clichés, so lame and unexciting on the surface, actually expresses a great and terrible truth. It is not the least bit coincidental that adults who commit suicide with firearms almost always shoot themselves in: the head. They shoot the terrible master. And the truth is that most of these suicides are actually dead long before they pull the trigger.And I submit that this is what the real, no bullshit value of your liberal arts education is supposed to be about: how to keep from going through your comfortable, prosperous, respectable adult life dead, unconscious, a slave to your head and to your natural default setting of being uniquely, completely, imperially alone day in and day out. That may sound like hyperbole, or abstract nonsense. Let's get concrete. The plain fact is that you graduating seniors do not yet have any clue what "day in day out" really means. There happen to be whole, large parts of adult American life that nobody talks about in commencement speeches. One such part involves boredom, routine and petty frustration. The parents and older folks here will know all too well what I'm talking about.By way of example, let's say it's an average adult day, and you get up in the morning, go to your challenging, white-collar, college-graduate job, and you work hard for eight or ten hours, and at the end of the day you're tired and somewhat stressed and all you want is to go home and have a good supper and maybe unwind for an hour, and then hit the sack early because, of course, you have to get up the next day and do it all again. But then you remember there's no food at home. You haven't had time to shop this week because of your challenging job, and so now after work you have to get in your car and drive to the supermarket. It's the end of the work day and the traffic is apt to be: very bad. So getting to the store takes way longer than it should, and when you finally get there, the supermarket is very crowded, because of course it's the time of day when all the other people with jobs also try to squeeze in some grocery shopping. And the store is hideously lit and infused with soul-killing muzak or corporate pop and it's pretty much the last place you want to be but you can't just get in and quickly out; you have to wander all over the huge, over-lit store's confusing aisles to find the stuff you want and you have to manoeuvre your junky cart through all these other tired, hurried people with carts (et cetera, et cetera, cutting stuff out because this is a long ceremony) and eventually you get all your supper supplies, except now it turns out there aren't enough check-out lanes open even though it's the end-of-the-day rush. So the checkout line is incredibly long, which is stupid and infuriating. But you can't take your frustration out on the frantic lady working the register, who is overworked at a job whose daily tedium and meaninglessness surpasses the imagination of any of us here at a prestigious college.But anyway, you finally get to the checkout line's front, and you pay for your food, and you get told to "Have a nice day" in a voice that is the absolute voice of death. Then you have to take your creepy, flimsy, plastic bags of groceries in your cart with the one crazy wheel that pulls maddeningly to the left, all the way out through the crowded, bumpy, littery parking lot, and then you have to drive all the way home through slow, heavy, SUV-intensive, rush-hour traffic, et cetera et cetera.Everyone here has done this, of course. But it hasn't yet been part of you graduates' actual life routine, day after week after month after year.But it will be. And many more dreary, annoying, seemingly meaningless routines besides. But that is not the point. The point is that petty, frustrating crap like this is exactly where the work of choosing is gonna come in. Because the traffic jams and crowded aisles and long checkout lines give me time to think, and if I don't make a conscious decision about how to think and what to pay attention to, I'm gonna be pissed and miserable every time I have to shop. Because my natural default setting is the certainty that situations like this are really all about me. About MY hungriness and MY fatigue and MY desire to just get home, and it's going to seem for all the world like everybody else is just in my way. And who are all these people in my way? And look at how repulsive most of them are, and how stupid and cow-like and dead-eyed and nonhuman they seem in the checkout line, or at how annoying and rude it is that people are talking loudly on cell phones in the middle of the line. And look at how deeply and personally unfair this is.Or, of course, if I'm in a more socially conscious liberal arts form of my default setting, I can spend time in the end-of-the-day traffic being disgusted about all the huge, stupid, lane-blocking SUV's and Hummers and V-12 pickup trucks, burning their wasteful, selfish, 40-gallon tanks of gas, and I can dwell on the fact that the patriotic or religious bumper-stickers always seem to be on the biggest, most disgustingly selfish vehicles, driven by the ugliest [responding here to loud applause] (this is an example of how NOT to think, though) most disgustingly selfish vehicles, driven by the ugliest, most inconsiderate and aggressive drivers. And I can think about how our children's children will despise us for wasting all the future's fuel, and probably screwing up the climate, and how spoiled and stupid and selfish and disgusting we all are, and how modern consumer society just sucks, and so forth and so on.You get the idea.If I choose to think this way in a store and on the freeway, fine. Lots of us do. Except thinking this way tends to be so easy and automatic that it doesn't have to be a choice. It is my natural default setting. It's the automatic way that I experience the boring, frustrating, crowded parts of adult life when I'm operating on the automatic, unconscious belief that I am the centre of the world, and that my immediate needs and feelings are what should determine the world's priorities.The thing is that, of course, there are totally different ways to think about these kinds of situations. In this traffic, all these vehicles stopped and idling in my way, it's not impossible that some of these people in SUV's have been in horrible auto accidents in the past, and now find driving so terrifying that their therapist has all but ordered them to get a huge, heavy SUV so they can feel safe enough to drive. Or that the Hummer that just cut me off is maybe being driven by a father whose little child is hurt or sick in the seat next to him, and he's trying to get this kid to the hospital, and he's in a bigger, more legitimate hurry than I am: it is actually I who am in HIS way.Or I can choose to force myself to consider the likelihood that everyone else in the supermarket's checkout line is just as bored and frustrated as I am, and that some of these people probably have harder, more tedious and painful lives than I do.Again, please don't think that I'm giving you moral advice, or that I'm saying you are supposed to think this way, or that anyone expects you to just automatically do it. Because it's hard. It takes will and effort, and if you are like me, some days you won't be able to do it, or you just flat out won't want to.But most days, if you're aware enough to give yourself a choice, you can choose to look differently at this fat, dead-eyed, over-made-up lady who just screamed at her kid in the checkout line. Maybe she's not usually like this. Maybe she's been up three straight nights holding the hand of a husband who is dying of bone cancer. Or maybe this very lady is the low-wage clerk at the motor vehicle department, who just yesterday helped your spouse resolve a horrific, infuriating, red-tape problem through some small act of bureaucratic kindness. Of course, none of this is likely, but it's also not impossible. It just depends what you want to consider. If you're automatically sure that you know what reality is, and you are operating on your default setting, then you, like me, probably won't consider possibilities that aren't annoying and miserable. But if you really learn how to pay attention, then you will know there are other options. It will actually be within your power to experience a crowded, hot, slow, consumer-hell type situation as not only meaningful, but sacred, on fire with the same force that made the stars: love, fellowship, the mystical oneness of all things deep down.Not that that mystical stuff is necessarily true. The only thing that's capital-T True is that you get to decide how you're gonna try to see it.This, I submit, is the freedom of a real education, of learning how to be well-adjusted. You get to consciously decide what has meaning and what doesn't. You get to decide what to worship.Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to-day trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship--be it JC or Allah, be it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble Truths, or some inviolable set of ethical principles--is that pretty much anything else you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things, if they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you will never have enough, never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your body and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly. And when time and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally grieve you. On one level, we all know this stuff already. It's been codified as myths, proverbs, clichés, epigrams, parables; the skeleton of every great story. The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness.Worship power, you will end up feeling weak and afraid, and you will need ever more power over others to numb you to your own fear. Worship your intellect, being seen as smart, you will end up feeling stupid, a fraud, always on the verge of being found out. But the insidious thing about these forms of worship is not that they're evil or sinful, it's that they're unconscious. They are default settings.They're the kind of worship you just gradually slip into, day after day, getting more and more selective about what you see and how you measure value without ever being fully aware that that's what you're doing.And the so-called real world will not discourage you from operating on your default settings, because the so-called real world of men and money and power hums merrily along in a pool of fear and anger and frustration and craving and worship of self. Our own present culture has harnessed these forces in ways that have yielded extraordinary wealth and comfort and personal freedom. The freedom all to be lords of our tiny skull-sized kingdoms, alone at the centre of all creation. This kind of freedom has much to recommend it. But of course there are all different kinds of freedom, and the kind that is most precious you will not hear much talk about much in the great outside world of wanting and achieving.... The really important kind of freedom involves attention and awareness and discipline, and being able truly to care about other people and to sacrifice for them over and over in myriad petty, unsexy ways every day.That is real freedom. That is being educated, and understanding how to think. The alternative is unconsciousness, the default setting, the rat race, the constant gnawing sense of having had, and lost, some infinite thing.I know that this stuff probably doesn't sound fun and breezy or grandly inspirational the way a commencement speech is supposed to sound. What it is, as far as I can see, is the capital-T Truth, with a whole lot of rhetorical niceties stripped away. You are, of course, free to think of it whatever you wish. But please don't just dismiss it as just some finger-wagging Dr Laura sermon. None of this stuff is really about morality or religion or dogma or big fancy questions of life after death.The capital-T Truth is about life BEFORE death.It is about the real value of a real education, which has almost nothing to do with knowledge, and everything to do with simple awareness; awareness of what is so real and essential, so hidden in plain sight all around us, all the time, that we have to keep reminding ourselves over and over:"This is water.""This is water."It is unimaginably hard to do this, to stay conscious and alive in the adult world day in and day out. Which means yet another grand cliché turns out to be true: your education really IS the job of a lifetime. And it commences: now.I wish you way more than luck.
 
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I am a finance major...two years left plan on graduating not from the best school somewhat average solid grades know a lot of people plan on getting some sort of corporate job and working myw ay up over the years. I wuold say most jobs require a college degree to atleast even be considered for it.
 
you know how these rankings come by?

they have very little to do with actual quality of education.

research/publications of university staff for example is a lot more important. the physics/chemics institute here in innsbruck is among the best universities (ranked) in the world (especially in quantum mechanics) but that does not equal a great education.

and thats not even my main point. as i mentioned earlier, a friend of mine was exchange student in harvard (ranked what? no 1-3 or something?) and while hes certainly not dumb he said that every course there was easy and definitely NOT harder than ours.

quality of education has ALMOST NOTHING to do with ranking, its just a seal of approval for employers. if youre the type of person to do whatever you need to be successful instead of doing the things you WANT to do, then this might not even bother you, but it does certainly bother me.

bottom line: in my opinion only devote employer-dick-suckers care about whether their university is among the top 100 because people just looking for a similar education can get it WAAAY cheaper.
 
just to clarify,

"my" university among economics isnt even among the top 200.

so what? does this mean i know ten times less about economics than a harvard grad?

i dont think so.
 
Society pushes students too hard towards a 4-year degree which has caused a significant decrease in our skilled labor force. American society looks down on jobs not requiring a degree, so more people have been choosing a 4-year degree. Choosing the route of college should be up to the students. College isn't for everyone. Mike Rowe shared some excellent thoughts in this video:

 
one big thing about the big schools like harvard/yale is they have really bad grade inflation. They get all of the smartest kids and then make it easy for them to graduate. Its something like 50 percent graduate with straight A's. That isnt how most american institutions are though, especially those like northwestern
 
By not allowing someone who can't afford it have access to it. We're at the tipping point right now of changing this with the amount of information that's available. Next step is to change the way employeers hire. A degree is definitely worth something but no where near as much as someones personality.
 
My dad graduated from the University of Montana in 1986, he worked through college and did not take out any loans, his business marketing degree cost him just over 5,000 dollars. 5k! my student loans from my first year of college are more money than i've ever seen in my life. I don't know how they'll ever get paid off.
 
Yes it is nice that you can go to the library and rent the books that teachers teach from or go on Google and find some of the same information. There are a couple problems with that though. First, when going to the library or google you are relying on your own judgement of what will be a good/worthwhile read not a trained professors. Second, everyone has different reading comprehension abilities. Reading from a book or computer will not suit many as well as to going to a lecture and studying notes. Third, if everyone did start just using libraries/internet sites to find higher education I would recon that these libraries/internet sites would turn into big institutions much like universities. Libraries as set up today could not handle everyone's educational needs and would have to grow to accommodate that. Internet sites would see the bigger opportunities to make money and would exploit that like the University of Phoenix has. It is a fact though that yes it is way cheaper to just go read the books yourself but this does not work for many and if everyone turned to doing this things as we know them know would change drastically. We can not say for certain how things would change, but I grantee that eduction would still not be free.

If college is not for you go ahead and do things your own way. It is though important to realize that colleges are not set up to hurt you are create a status quo. They are created to aide in learning and help people greater there lives.
 
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