The failings of American education

las.

Active member
http://www.education.com/magazine/article/waiting-superman-means-parents/

"On international tests, American children rank 25th in math and 21st in science, despite the push for greater accountability through No Child Left Behind. This 2002 law pledged that 100% of kids would be reading and doing math at grade level within ten years, but 8 years later the test scores look ominous: only 14% of Mississippi students, 30% of NY students, and 24% of California kids are proficient in math. Nationwide, only 20-34 percent of kids in the United States are currently reading at grade level. What's more, although America is falling behind in math, our kids are first in confidence. American students get terrible math scores compared to their international peers, but they think they're great in math - in fact, they have more confidence in their math skills than students from any other country.

Why you should care: While good self-esteem is important for your child, so are key skills and high expectations. Unfortunately, the expectations being set at many schools in America are extremely low. As a nation, we'll never compete if we don't set the bar as high as the countries with which we're competing globally. And as a parent, you need to be aware of the expectations your school has for its children and, if need be, set your own family goals. Low international rankings on test scores aren't just embarrassing. They mean that your child's generation won't be able to meet industry demands on a global scale. Right now, America is the world's largest superpower. But it’s unlikely to remain as strong without an educated work force."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect:

"Unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude"

2033-I_told_that_teachin_lady.jpg
 
By the way, this isn't a 'murica hate thread. America has some fantastic, world-class universities, and, as a nation, it generates an immense amount of scientific thinking. I just personally think this arrogant, ignorant, false-patriotic mindset towards yourselves and what you're actually accomplishing is completely counter-productive.

So, discuss
 
12965605:gin said:
its most of us arent asain

Retarded us aren't of most.

To answer op, state tests aren't really a good measure of the kid's intelligence because very few people actually try on them. Even using sat math scores, limited as it is, would be more accurate than state tests.
 
What's the big deal if countries are ahead of us? Why do we need to be number 1? Would you rather be like South Korea and go to school from 7-7 and then study till bed? Fuck that. YOLO
 
12965655:cornholio said:
does everyone in new zealand live in a cave? everyone in america has know this for 10-20 years.

Just a healthy reminder since nothing seems to being done about it
 
The statistics are really something to worry about, and Im concerned they'll just keep getting worse. That being said, American colleges and universities are unrivaled internationally.
 
American schools blow. I say that and I live in iowa, one of the best states to go to a public school in. All of the teachers are dumbasses except for a select few of really old guys who I was was my dad. I do the think the real reason is the students though. A solid 80 percent of my grade does not give a shit about their grades and the other 20 are advanced by a few grade level. Its just an all around shit show
 
12965728:chacha33 said:
I do the think the real reason is the students though. A solid 80 percent of my grade does not give a shit about their grades

Probably this. People blame teachers, but if the kids don't care then trying your hardest to teach them does nothing.
 
Shitty teachers lost me. I was incredibly motivated but bullshit teaching, busy work, and teachers bitching about nothing had me over the whole thing.

Sure, sometimes it's the students, but it's definitely the teachers plenty of times.

For the most part everything's set one way and if you don't fit perfectly into that mold they trying make your life miserable.
 
12965824:DrZoidberg said:
Probably this. People blame teachers, but if the kids don't care then trying your hardest to teach them does nothing.

It's a number of things, and its impossible to diagnose an entire system that is failing from the time even before children enter school.

If your parents are too busy working and do not have the time to talk to you, sing to you, and play music for you when you are a baby, you miss out on a shit ton. Many parents don't even know that this matters. By age five, a staggering number of American children are already "behind." They lack the development that comes with hearing words at a young age and so they read and learn slower. They are blamed at age 12, 16, 18 for "not caring" and told that they've been left behind, but they were left behind before they even showed up. People are less likely to like things they aren't good at.

So yeah, it can be the students, but often it's more than that. Don't even get me started on teacher's unions and teacher tenure. That's the such a load of bullshit and one of the biggest disservices we do to our country's children.

It's everybody. It's the students, it's the parents, it's the teachers (administrators included), and it varies from case to case.
 
12965824:DrZoidberg said:
Probably this. People blame teachers, but if the kids don't care then trying your hardest to teach them does nothing.

It's a number of things, and its impossible to diagnose an entire system that is failing from the time even before children enter school.

If your parents are too busy working and do not have the time to talk to you, sing to you, and play music for you when you are a baby, you miss out on a shit ton. Many parents don't even know that this matters. By age five, a staggering number of American children are already "behind." They lack the development that comes with hearing words at a young age and so they read and learn slower. They are blamed at age 12, 16, 18 for "not caring" and told that they've been left behind, but they were left behind before they even showed up. People are less likely to like things they aren't good at.

So yeah, it can be the students, but often it's more than that. Don't even get me started on teacher's unions and teacher tenure. That's the such a load of bullshit and one of the biggest disservices we do to our country's children.

It's everybody. It's the students, it's the parents, it's the teachers (administrators included), and it varies from case to case.
 
12965602:las. said:
I just personally think this arrogant, ignorant, false-patriotic mindset towards yourselves and what you're actually accomplishing is completely counter-productive.

Contrary to popular opinion, a huge chunk of Americans are very aware of our shortcomings.
 
One thing to factor in is that many countries who score higher than the U.S., don't include kids with learning disabilities in their totals. The U.S. does include them, so our numbers will be lower. If you compare apples to apples, it isn't nearly as bad as the statistics suggest. I still think that most public schools are failing students and this new "Common Core" is ludicrously stupid. It will go a long way towards reverting the U.S. into a third world country.
 
12966315:Mr.Huck said:
One thing to factor in is that many countries who score higher than the U.S., don't include kids with learning disabilities in their totals. The U.S. does include them, so our numbers will be lower. If you compare apples to apples, it isn't nearly as bad as the statistics suggest. I still think that most public schools are failing students and this new "Common Core" is ludicrously stupid. It will go a long way towards reverting the U.S. into a third world country.

This so much ^

They use this to skew the numbers to make it look like american kids are dumb as shit. They create this problem so there's a "need" to fix it. By "fixing" it, it allows those in power to change the education system to a style that suites their needs. Smart enough to pull the lever, but not smart enough to ask why. It really is brilliant. Keep the populace uneducated and tell them only what you want them to here. Make them reliant on the government so we need them.
 
education reform should be the next big thing our nation works on. we are churning out generations of idiots that won't contribute anything good
 
12966038:blondie. said:
It's a number of things, and its impossible to diagnose an entire system that is failing from the time even before children enter school.

If your parents are too busy working and do not have the time to talk to you, sing to you, and play music for you when you are a baby, you miss out on a shit ton. Many parents don't even know that this matters. By age five, a staggering number of American children are already "behind." They lack the development that comes with hearing words at a young age and so they read and learn slower. They are blamed at age 12, 16, 18 for "not caring" and told that they've been left behind, but they were left behind before they even showed up. People are less likely to like things they aren't good at.

So yeah, it can be the students, but often it's more than that. Don't even get me started on teacher's unions and teacher tenure. That's the such a load of bullshit and one of the biggest disservices we do to our country's children.

It's everybody. It's the students, it's the parents, it's the teachers (administrators included), and it varies from case to case.

Nicely said. This is pretty much sums up my thoughts on the subject. The problem is how the hell do we fix it?
 
I was having a interesting conversation yesterday about why we dont allow natural selection to take its course. Why not let the stupid people kill themselves cause their dumb. Why have the smart people save the stupid people. Smart people would just survive and then we would evolve smarter.
 
12966038:blondie. said:
It's a number of things, and its impossible to diagnose an entire system that is failing from the time even before children enter school.

If your parents are too busy working and do not have the time to talk to you, sing to you, and play music for you when you are a baby, you miss out on a shit ton.

Definitely. Had I elaborated, I'd have blamed parents for how their kids are. Parents often blame teachers or somebody else when it's actually their fault. Point is, whatever is fostering the drive to learn may or may not be missing right now. Of course, no single source of fault can be easily identified.

Also when people take standardized tests in school, are a lot of people just like fuck this and guess on every one? Maybe I'm different, but doing that never occurred to me, or was never a serious consideration other than joking about guessing to see how statistics played out for you.
 
12966497:Diabeeto said:
This is pretty much sums up my thoughts on the subject.

lol yea sure.

This generation just ask and ask for answers, ask the teacher, ask the parents, ask the tutor. Is that how you learn to think, solve, and build a good work ethic?

Kid in the back of the class, never raises his hand, barely talks to anyone, barely comes to class. Yet he aces every test. How? He never puts much time in studying, but each time he doesn't understand a concept, instead of raising his hand like the "stop the class every 5min" girl up front, he will stare at his textbook until he figures it out. Understand by your own, thats how you get smart. I had my jaw on the floor watching each of my teammates alternately rushing to the teachers desk as soon as something didn't exactly work. Yea don't even bother to solve it, just go ask the teacher or your parents when you get back home.. I don't mind it though, have fun getting played when it comes to actually getting work done and move your way up. (Engineering student here)
 
12966502:theBearJew said:
I was having a interesting conversation yesterday about why we dont allow natural selection to take its course. Why not let the stupid people kill themselves cause their dumb. Why have the smart people save the stupid people. Smart people would just survive and then we would evolve smarter.

I have always wondered why our science classes preach natural selection and survival of the fittest and yet nobody applies it. Makes no sense.
 
12966561:Puzzled said:
Kid in the back of the class, never raises his hand, barely talks to anyone, barely comes to class. Yet he aces every test. How? He never puts much time in studying, but each time he doesn't understand a concept, instead of raising his hand like the "stop the class every 5min" girl up front, he will stare at his textbook until he figures it out.

That is pretty much how I learned. The only time it doesn't work is if it is a shitty textbook. Although now I do use the internet and solutions a lot if I'm working problems that I can't figure out. As long as you don't just copy the answers down but actually figure out why everything was done it works really well.
 
12966571:penguiin said:
I have always wondered why our science classes preach natural selection and survival of the fittest and yet nobody applies it. Makes no sense.

I think it's sort of the difference between cruel nature and civilization. It's sort of interesting to consider but I don't think it's realistic.

But also think for example of how a pack of animals works where they help runts or weaker animals to keep up to an extent. I think there is nothing wrong with doing so to a point. We all benefit from an educated population and there is a need for various levels of skill in our society.
 
well people like spss bought their way through one of the more elite schools in the USA, so yeah, I'd agree your system is kind of messed up.
 
12965824:DrZoidberg said:
Probably this. People blame teachers, but if the kids don't care then trying your hardest to teach them does nothing.

you know why people blame teachers because it's the teachers job to get their students motivated to learn. yah some students have more trouble than others but, it's the teachers job to address these problems by helping them strengthen their weak areas. Every kid that acts out in school usually has some other shit going on. Some Teachers give up on students because they don't know how to deal with them. The entire way of teaching needs to be adjusted for the modern age.

I will use ADD & ADHD as an example. sure doctors just think we will medicate this child then he will learn. but some kids don't want to take meds because it makes them feel not normal. As they shouldn't be told to take meds because the teacher isn't creating an environment that will encourage them to learn instead they sit in a class room filled with distractions. Maybe instead of thinking there's a problem with the child they should think maybe the method of trying to stimulate their brain.

while on the subject I think the US school board should look at Norway as a model for teaching. http://principalfoundations.blogspot.ca/2011/08/why-norwegian-school-system-might-be.html
 
12966583:Dirac said:
well people like spss bought their way through one of the more elite schools in the USA, so yeah, I'd agree your system is kind of messed up.

If you actually think that..well shit man..I feel sorry for you
 
12966583:Dirac said:
well people like spss bought their way through one of the more elite schools in the USA, so yeah, I'd agree your system is kind of messed up.

keep that shit out of here.
 
12966502:theBearJew said:
I was having a interesting conversation yesterday about why we dont allow natural selection to take its course. Why not let the stupid people kill themselves cause their dumb. Why have the smart people save the stupid people. Smart people would just survive and then we would evolve smarter.

12966579:.ZT. said:
I think it's sort of the difference between cruel nature and civilization. It's sort of interesting to consider but I don't think it's realistic.

But also think for example of how a pack of animals works where they help runts or weaker animals to keep up to an extent. I think there is nothing wrong with doing so to a point. We all benefit from an educated population and there is a need for various levels of skill in our society.

Think about the kids in your high school class that got knocked up. Were they the math geeks and the honors students or were they the real fucking idiots? Unfortunately for our species, the smartest people usually only have one or two kids later in life, while the fuckheads are out there spawning as soon as they can figure out how to work their reproductive organs. The result is that right now natural selection is selecting for a hell of a lot of stupid kids.
 
12966615:LE.Skiing said:
you know why people blame teachers because it's the teachers job to get their students motivated to learn. yah some students have more trouble than others but, it's the teachers job to address these problems by helping them strengthen their weak areas. Every kid that acts out in school usually has some other shit going on. Some Teachers give up on students because they don't know how to deal with them. The entire way of teaching needs to be adjusted for the modern age.

I will use ADD & ADHD as an example. sure doctors just think we will medicate this child then he will learn. but some kids don't want to take meds because it makes them feel not normal. As they shouldn't be told to take meds because the teacher isn't creating an environment that will encourage them to learn instead they sit in a class room filled with distractions. Maybe instead of thinking there's a problem with the child they should think maybe the method of trying to stimulate their brain.

while on the subject I think the US school board should look at Norway as a model for teaching. http://principalfoundations.blogspot.ca/2011/08/why-norwegian-school-system-might-be.html

Yeah, also Norway requires mandatory military service for everyone regardless of sex. That notion would be well received in the U.S. ... NOT! Anyone who suggests such a concept here would get filleted, whether or not it was a good idea.

My kids are both on ADD meds right now and it scares the living crap out of me. The way some of the meds effect kids in their teens is terrifying. A kid we know tried to commit suicide by ODing on sleeping pills. They had recently switched his meds and they sent him into depression. It's a miracle that he didn't succeed.
 
12966561:Puzzled said:
lol yea sure.

This generation just ask and ask for answers, ask the teacher, ask the parents, ask the tutor. Is that how you learn to think, solve, and build a good work ethic?

Figuring it out for yourself is no longer in style? That's too bad.

12966615:LE.Skiing said:
you know why people blame teachers because it's the teachers job to get their students motivated to learn. yah some students have more trouble than others but, it's the teachers job to address these problems by helping them strengthen their weak areas. Every kid that acts out in school usually has some other shit going on. Some Teachers give up on students because they don't know how to deal with them. The entire way of teaching needs to be adjusted for the modern age.

I will use ADD & ADHD as an example. sure doctors just think we will medicate this child then he will learn. but some kids don't want to take meds because it makes them feel not normal. As they shouldn't be told to take meds because the teacher isn't creating an environment that will encourage them to learn instead they sit in a class room filled with distractions. Maybe instead of thinking there's a problem with the child they should think maybe the method of trying to stimulate their brain.

while on the subject I think the US school board should look at Norway as a model for teaching. http://principalfoundations.blogspot.ca/2011/08/why-norwegian-school-system-might-be.html

My opinions, obviously, but I believe there are kids who will not learn regardless of the method used because they have no desire to learn. Who inspires them to learn doesn't matter; it could be a teacher, parents or Bill Nye. I don't care. Just get it done. Ideally, that's something parents do early on, but teachers or others can totally fill that role. I agree there.

If a kid has a desire to learn, they would hopefully seek something that works for them, or make an appeal to somebody to find something that works for them. I agree that teachers should be open to such requests (The mark of a good teacher.). The motivation should come from parents and teachers. A lack on either rend represents a failure on that end. So I agree on that. I want to point out that parents cannot place all the blame on the teachers, and often the teachers seem to get a lot of heat while the parents dodge all the flak.

If you sit a kid down in class, he doesn't understand it right away and says fuck it I don't care, then that's it. He's not going to learn whether the teacher lectures, gives them problems or dances on the desk. Not caring is the key part there. At least, that's what i've experienced going through high school and college.
 
12965641:-benedetto said:
What's the big deal if countries are ahead of us? Why do we need to be number 1? Would you rather be like South Korea and go to school from 7-7 and then study till bed? Fuck that. YOLO

Yeah in S. Korea the highschoolers are just drowned in schoolwork.
 
12966682:Mr.Huck said:
Yeah, also Norway requires mandatory military service for everyone regardless of sex. That notion would be well received in the U.S. ... NOT! Anyone who suggests such a concept here would get filleted, whether or not it was a good idea.

My kids are both on ADD meds right now and it scares the living crap out of me. The way some of the meds effect kids in their teens is terrifying. A kid we know tried to commit suicide by ODing on sleeping pills. They had recently switched his meds and they sent him into depression. It's a miracle that he didn't succeed.

Did you serve in the military? If not your opinion is not valid. And it is your choice to have your kids on ADD meds. Why not just say to that bullshit if it scares you that much?
 
12966685:DrZoidberg said:
Figuring it out for yourself is no longer in style? That's too bad.

My opinions, obviously, but I believe there are kids who will not learn regardless of the method used because they have no desire to learn. Who inspires them to learn doesn't matter; it could be a teacher, parents or Bill Nye. I don't care. Just get it done. Ideally, that's something parents do early on, but teachers or others can totally fill that role. I agree there.

If a kid has a desire to learn, they would hopefully seek something that works for them, or make an appeal to somebody to find something that works for them. I agree that teachers should be open to such requests (The mark of a good teacher.). The motivation should come from parents and teachers. A lack on either rend represents a failure on that end. So I agree on that. I want to point out that parents cannot place all the blame on the teachers, and often the teachers seem to get a lot of heat while the parents dodge all the flak.

If you sit a kid down in class, he doesn't understand it right away and says fuck it I don't care, then that's it. He's not going to learn whether the teacher lectures, gives them problems or dances on the desk. Not caring is the key part there. At least, that's what i've experienced going through high school and college.

I can agree as well it's not just the teachers. Part of it is the parents and their job to create a positive environment for their child at home for learning. I was diagnosed With ADD when I was going to school and my parents asked if I wanted to take medication to help me focus on school. I declined because for one I shouldn't have to take medication to act "ideal"(in the eyes of my teachers.) and for two I could focus(within a reasonable extent) and did focus very well in trades classes such as metal work and automotive classes because they interested me. I could also get my body moving and blood flowing rather than sitting at a desk in a chair trying not to fall asleep. I understand it frustrates teachers when students fall asleep.

I bet it's only because it's disrupting the class but they never think that maybe this kid is just bored with the method of being told what to do rather than creating engaging conversations where their students can come to conclusions.

Some people learn better having hands on experience. some can learn from a book. The trick school boards need to figure out is what kids need to learn and finding out as early as possible how they can get through to the kids.

Also I know some people who do teaching for the district here and they help with "troubled kids" who are behind on work and have difficulties learning. All the kids are great kids and are brilliant. The reason they are considered trouble kids is because they challenge teachers or their teachers just only want to teach the "smart kids" which is ridiculous IMO.
 
12966682:Mr.Huck said:
Yeah, also Norway requires mandatory military service for everyone regardless of sex. That notion would be well received in the U.S. ... NOT! Anyone who suggests such a concept here would get filleted, whether or not it was a good idea.

My kids are both on ADD meds right now and it scares the living crap out of me. The way some of the meds effect kids in their teens is terrifying. A kid we know tried to commit suicide by ODing on sleeping pills. They had recently switched his meds and they sent him into depression. It's a miracle that he didn't succeed.

Mandatory service is a horrible idea with the people in charge. I.E Vietnam and 2 decade long wars for oil. Think about it, man.

12966687:californiagrown said:
Yeah in S. Korea the highschoolers are just drowned in schoolwork.

And sarcasm? Can't tell. It is true though.
 
12967178:-benedetto said:
Mandatory service is a horrible idea with the people in charge. I.E Vietnam and 2 decade long wars for oil. Think about it, man.

and military service comes after grade school, so I do not see how it is even relevant.
 
I wonder how a presidential campaign centered around education reform as the key issue for the candidate would look. I wonder how successful it would be.
 
12966376:DeebieSkeebies said:
education reform should be the next big thing our nation works on. we are churning out generations of idiots that won't contribute anything good

I would guess economic reform will probably be the next big thing, whether it is a focus on the corporations or the top 1%. People will always care more about who has more money than who is smarter because people tend to see the two as linked.
 
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