[Rant] So many style coaches and sport analysts on NS

[Mitch.B]

This is one of the most annoying things about our sport, the constant whinging that any new high level comp trick "ruins skiing" and it is now indistinguishable from aerials.

Firstly, I have nothing against people who prefer to watch "style oriented" edits, (LSM, Hood Crew, MoleSquad, ect, I actually enjoy them a lot) but the ones who claim it as the holy grail of skiing progression are idiots. Yes they are creative, yes they are awesome to watch, but they aren't progressive to the sport as a whole. They are progressive to the sport in a partial segment, and comparing it directly to other areas of skiing is illogical and retarded. You wouldn't compare the tricks thrown down on big mountain to tricks in the park. So why compare tricks thrown down in the park, to tricks thrown down on massive custom built features? They are different terrains and styles of skiing. People always say that skiing is a way for people to express creativity, so you shouldn't judge people for doing just that, regardless of if you like it or not.

For 99% of the people that say all this stuff, I would bet my skis on it, that they won't ever get near the level of either the top comp jocks, or the affronted "style skiers", THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY PROGRESSING AND MAKING THE SPORT WHAT IT IS. A bunch of keyboard warriors on NS who are nobodies in the skiing world are making these claims that "skiing's dead" when new big tricks are thrown down, yet are excited when they learn a new trick like a backflip or whatever, (i.e. progressing their own skiing.) Have you ever stopped to think that a high level pro would also like to continue progressing themselves? Skiing is their passion, not just a hobby like it is for some people on NS, and it's that drive that lead them to be pro in the first place. They are just pushing themselves, and achieving their own personal goals, it just so happens that because these people are at the top of the game, that their progression IS the progression of sport. If these keyboard warriors had their way, the X-Games would consist of people doing cork 5's every hit because "it's more stylish than a double/triple."

Like seriously, stop hating on an aspect of skiing you obviously have no interest in, so let the people who are interested in it enjoy it.

Let people do triple after triple, if that's what they want to do.

Let people do lip on blind 2 all day, if that's what they want to do.

Let people do afterbangs after every trick, if that's what they want to do.

Let people just land their tricks with no consideration of "style," if that's what they want to do.

Just because it isn't your preference, doesn't mean it isn't progressive.

 

[-Dan]

Let people do lip on blind 2 all day, if that's what they want to do.

For those of you who couldn't read the whole thing. This is the most important point OP made.

 

[kylemclean]

Preach OP I'm glad someone finally said it

 

[lurking]

These threads always come up after a new trick, i.e. the snowboarding quad, and I will always say the same thing, who fucking cares what other people think? If you enjoy skiing and don't think it's dead, go skiing.

 

[Mingg]

I'll never understand. Some people claim bigger tricks ruin the sport... if everyone kept doing basic tricks under 720/900s, where the fuck would the sport go? It's just very contradictory in my opinion.

Everyone has their own approach/style to the sport. The beauty of skiing is you can do whatever you want, how you want. So if someone wants to go dub onto a rail, fucking great. Someone wants to triple, good for them. That's soo gnarly. If someone wants to get really technical on rails and add a new style to it, thats sweet too! Noah and Magnus' edit with all those like hand drag spins off were dope!

People need to quit making a big deal. It's all good stuff and neither approach is right or wrong.

 

[dun.Can]

if everyone kept doing basic tricks under 720/900s

oh that would be perfect

 

[a_burger]

I agree but what else would people talk about on ns during the summer

 

[saskskier]

Preach OP I'm glad someone finally said it

Someone finally said it? This conversation has been going on since people started throwing 900's and 1080's back in the day (and probably earlier).

There will always be people pushing the sport and seeing how far things can go. We need these people. There will always be people who focus on style and will see how cleanly an established trick can be done. We need these people too.

 

[Twig]

People should 100% do what they want and I think new big tricks are crazy impressive in their own way (as are those in so many other sports I don't partake in out there). But I also think there is a point at which the primary skill involved is no longer skiing. At that point, I'm still impressed by the athletic achievement but I also cease to relate said trick to the activity I love and do every day I can.

 

[Mr.Bishop]

A bunch of keyboard warriors on NS who are nobodies in the skiing world are making these claims that "skiing's dead" when new big tricks are thrown down

Skiing is going to die if the flippy-spinny bullshit continues.

Now, we can start arguing this point from a non-keyboard warrior nobody's point.

Yes, more flips and more spins is progression. Its the definition of progression.

However, there's a hard ceiling where the physical limits of the human body get reached. Aerials already found those, and it led to it being a completely niche gymnastics sport that nobody wants to be a part of.

The thing is that the hot dogging movement of the '60s was just like the Newschool movement of the late '90s. Basically the same shit, but with different style.

As soon as hot dogging became Freestyle, and the only 'progression' that was getting peoples attention - it was the beginning of the end.

The argument is not about whether or not these tricks are hard. Sure they are. The argument should be about the fact that it is unattainable for the average person, and at a certain point it makes it impossible for anyone to do. Sure, the few rich kids that can afford the level of training necessary to actually perform these stunts will be able to partake, but the rest of us won't be able to.

When you focus on style, fluidity, having fun - and even changing up the course from its regular format - you keep the sport within the grasp of the general public. Skateboarding isn't so big because their top dogs jump buildings doing 18 flips... its big because their top dogs ride the same streets that anyone living in a city can.

 

[Puzzled]

Meta progression offers endless possibilities.

Why would you want a new trick when you can have a whole new dimension? A whole new perspective. The bunch and co are progressing in a more interesting way, they add depth to the sport.

 

[Krotchs_Brother]

Skateboarding isn't so big because their top dogs jump buildings doing 18 flips... its big because their top dogs ride the same streets that anyone living in a city can.

This this and then some more this.

 

[iang]

Skiing is going to die if the flippy-spinny bullshit continues.

Now, we can start arguing this point from a non-keyboard warrior nobody's point.

Yes, more flips and more spins is progression. Its the definition of progression.

However, there's a hard ceiling where the physical limits of the human body get reached. Aerials already found those, and it led to it being a completely niche gymnastics sport that nobody wants to be a part of.

The thing is that the hot dogging movement of the '60s was just like the Newschool movement of the late '90s. Basically the same shit, but with different style.

As soon as hot dogging became Freestyle, and the only 'progression' that was getting peoples attention - it was the beginning of the end.

The argument is not about whether or not these tricks are hard. Sure they are. The argument should be about the fact that it is unattainable for the average person, and at a certain point it makes it impossible for anyone to do. Sure, the few rich kids that can afford the level of training necessary to actually perform these stunts will be able to partake, but the rest of us won't be able to.

When you focus on style, fluidity, having fun - and even changing up the course from its regular format - you keep the sport within the grasp of the general public. Skateboarding isn't so big because their top dogs jump buildings doing 18 flips... its big because their top dogs ride the same streets that anyone living in a city can.

Yeah, but just because there are top players in the NFL who HAVE pushed the sport to it's physical limits by being ridiculous athletes doesn't mean I can't head to the park and toss a football with my friends.

In the vein of skateboarding and skiing too, skateboarding will always be more accesible than skiing. It's something like 50$ for nice full setup, and skateparks are always going to be free. You have to be fairly wealthy to ski regularly (or a bum). And on the ground level skateboarding is super accesible, but that doesn't mean just because I shred around the skatepark I'm going to be able to throw down 1080s on the X Games mega ramp. Skateboarding has nearly reached some sort of athletic limit in it's big air competition scene, but the ground level local scene still has remained vibrant, and full of creativity.

Skiing's no different. While it may be though to afford, once you're apart of the community, people to quad cork 3000s won't affect MY experience of skiing. A bunch of pipe jocks hucking massive tricks have got nothing to do with my day shredding big mountain and back-flipping off natural features anyway. Hell, a cork 9 is a most likely out of the realm of where my park skills will reach, and people are doing DUB CORKS TO RAILS, the sport has already almost reach a point of no further progression, and the ground level local scene still rocks. And, in terms of skaters being able to skate the same streets as one another, sure, I won't be able to hit the Nine Knights kicker, but I could head to PCMR and ski the same lanes that show in sick pro edits. The top level of competition in any sport is always going to be "inaccessible" unless you bust your balls your entire life (and probably be super rich to get pro training), but that can't take away from what the sport means to the average skier.

So, I say let's let those park pros try to get as many flips and rotations in as possible, because it's fun as hell to watch, and we've got TheBunch to watch too if all those flips start giving us headaches. Let people ski how they want to ski. It doesn't matter to me.

 

[S.J.W]

This this and then some more this.

Not really, skateboarding is big because it's easily accessible. I can borrow a friends board and skate and see if I like it. Skiing doesn't have this luxury. skiing is much more of a niche market. Skateboarding is also big because skateboarding fashion has influenced mainstream fashion. Look at brands like Vans, Element and Volcom, all skate brands but you can see kids who have never picked up a board wearing their shits and shoes. Same goes for surfing with quicksilver, RVCA, etc,etc. There isn't one ski brand that has mainstream appeal in the fashion industry.

 

[Mr.Bishop]

Yeah, but just because there are top players in the NFL who HAVE pushed the sport to it's physical limits by being ridiculous athletes doesn't mean I can't head to the park and toss a football with my friends.

Right - but lets focus on a much more relevant comparison:

Aerials.

Remember - Aerials started as big air contests from the hot dogging movement. We're not talking about theory here - we're talking about something that has already happened - in skiing.

So lets take the comparisons out of the argument. How come Aerials doesn't inspire people to get into skiing? Why don't people strive for that, and why did Aerials manage to take a huge chunk of time in skiing and essentially kill off the random person's desire to hit big jumps?

There used to be air sites at hills anyone could hit. After Aerials started to get too many injuries, the public was locked out of these and part of skiing simply was not hitting jumps other than moguls and little side booters. Maybe a cliff or a windlip, but nothing more than big iron crosses.

 

[jynx81]

" the bunch fucking sucks" has gotta be one of the most common subjets for a thread during this l st summer. really annoying how people talk but dont do anything. for instance the hood crew got famous for stair skiing if they can ski stairs just take their game up a notch and ski ur highschools stairs and run away from security or something.

 

[murphyboiiii]

first thread I've seen where every reply is a paragraph +. it takes me like 2 weeks to write three paragraphs for english class, lol

 

[AndyT]

tru

 

[broto]

if your skiing looks like ass i'm entitled to share my opinion on it. i'm not gonna be a dick about it, but i'm gonna critique it.

seriously, people have been critiquing art for a looooong time. why should skiing be any different?

 

[Poikenz]

How come Aerials doesn't inspire people to get into skiing? Why don't people strive for that, and why did Aerials manage to take a huge chunk of time in skiing and essentially kill off the random person's desire to hit big jumps?

There used to be air sites at hills anyone could hit. After Aerials started to get too many injuries, the public was locked out of these and part of skiing simply was not hitting jumps other than moguls and little side booters. Maybe a cliff or a windlip, but nothing more than big iron crosses.

It rarely gets coverage or exposure from what I have seen in magazines or TV other than the Olympics. It is very regulated and strict, you have to hit the same spec jump every time (more or less) and it simply isn't cool. Aesthetically there are plenty of other sports that look way better, making them more appealing. Mentioned in every Winter Olympics, most athletes are just bottom tier gymnasts, which makes kids want to be gymnasts more than skiers as you don't need the skiing skill to compete.

Aerials have different jumps, it is easier to go over the handlebars on a softened landing and the steep angle makes it extremely easy to land hard backseat. Terrain park insurance probably wasn't a thing at that time (please correct me if I'm wrong) so it made sense to not let people hit the one jump that sent you 15 feet into the air while you waited for your toes to burst through your boot on the landing.

I'm not too worried about limits, the jumps won't get dangerously big- I know there are triples in slope now, but to have big bertha sized jumps in slope seems crazy (but who knows). If anything limiting happens to the rules I feel that the athletes and community would speak up against it. Slope will always have style, judging it is another story.

To reply to the topic- let them bitch, skiing isn't some sort of utopia where everyone agrees on everything (clearly stated by your rant).

 

[Mr.Bishop]

Terrain park insurance probably wasn't a thing at that time (please correct me if I'm wrong) so it made sense to not let people hit the one jump that sent you 15 feet into the air while you waited for your toes to burst through your boot on the landing.

No, this is the thing.... this is the KEY.

The USA and suing wasn't different then. They had insurance, they had everything we do right now - hell the rules then were way more lax.

The problem was, when the pros started to take the limits too far (which ended up being triples) and everyone started to follow suit - people at these air sites started to get really hurt. The pros started to get really hurt.

Insurance companies wouldn't touch the sport unless access to training was highly regulated, and you qualified what tricks you were allowed to do in competition based on the amount of training you had done.

In aerials, you aren't allowed to take a trick to snow without landing it on a water ramp something like 50-100 times under the rigorous supervision of a qualified coach.

When the top level gets too dangerous for anyone to get there without years of rigorous training - and the concequence of fucking up is death/paralysis - shit gets real fucking lame, real fucking fast.

 

[JimmyRecard]

I just don't get the question of the poll... how could style be anything but subjective???

 

[Mr.Bishop]

I just don't get the question of the poll... how could style be anything but subjective???

Start scoring fluidity. Amped 2 managed to do it in a videogame.... style is possible to be objective.

 

[JimmyRecard]

Start scoring fluidity. Amped 2 managed to do it in a videogame.... style is possible to be objective.

I'm talking about in a totally general scale. I agree things like creativity and fluidity should be considered with more weight in judging, but the core aspect of style - the thing that makes style so essential, and makes skiing more art than sport - is that you can't judge it. The things that I enjoy and like to watch on skis may be totally different from the things you enjoy (except for backflips, who don't love those).

 

[Mr.Bishop]

I'm talking about in a totally general scale. I agree things like creativity and fluidity should be considered with more weight in judging, but the core aspect of style - the thing that makes style so essential, and makes skiing more art than sport - is that you can't judge it. The things that I enjoy and like to watch on skis may be totally different from the things you enjoy (except for backflips, who don't love those).

Every played Amped 2?

The tricks you did which made you say out loud "Unnhhhhhhhhh" were the ones that scored best. Sure flavor can't be judged, but fluidity is very possible to be scored.

The problem right now is defining style as "got the grab". That leads to form, just like aerials. Someone who executes THE shifty 5, straight to the bottom of the landing... that shit would be fluid as fuck - much more so than any grabbed trip billionspin.

 

[TACO-DOG.exe]

can this thread get stickied?

you dun good OP.

 

[Bonzalo]

THE PEOPLE WHO ARE ACTUALLY PROGRESSING AND MAKING THE SPORT WHAT IT IS.

So if I don't like the direction that the sport is being pushed I can't have an opinion? Dude you really think the sport is progressing with a double on to a rail?, whats next quadruples and triples off rail?

Russ did a great trick, props to him for landing that, he has a huge pair of balls, does it really helps skiing?? Don't think so, it is just a marketing move for himself and nothing else.

You are right, they are the people who are progressing the sport and making it what it is because they have the media to do so, the sponsors, etc... But anybody else whos trying to push the sport in some other direction ie. SLVSH will not going to get resources from big companies because triples and super mega features are getting all the attention from the media.

Is it killing skiing? don't think so, It is hurting it?, yes I think it does.

Anyway I hope you are some kind of big time skier if you are judging peoples skiing ability like that.

 

[RoidedSasquatch]

So if I don't like the direction that the sport is being pushed I can't have an opinion? Dude you really think the sport is progressing with a double on to a rail?, whats next quadruples and triples off rail?

Russ did a great trick, props to him for landing that, he has a huge pair of balls, does it really helps skiing?? Don't think so, it is just a marketing move for himself and nothing else.

You are right, they are the people who are progressing the sport and making it what it is because they have the media to do so, the sponsors, etc... But anybody else whos trying to push the sport in some other direction ie. SLVSH will not going to get resources from big companies because triples and super mega features are getting all the attention from the media.

Is it killing skiing? don't think so, It is hurting it?, yes I think it does.

Anyway I hope you are some kind of big time skier if you are judging peoples skiing ability like that.

This. When pros dub onto rails or triple cork how does it help skiing? It doesn't progress the sport because 99.9% of skiers can't do that trick. Think of it this way, technology is always progressing. Most people own smartphones now. How many people do you see with the first cell phone ever released that still actively use it as a method of communication? Nobody. Progression involves moving forward in a way that is accessible to most not just a very select few. Throwing a triple my look cool and impress people but it isn't truly progressing the sport as you won't ever see some kid throwing triples in their park. This just leaves style. The average person can always add style to their tricks. I'd much rather a really stylish cork 3 truck than a triple or quad because cork 3 trucks are achievable for the average person. The average skier can easily know what it feels like to send that trick and add their own style to it whereas the average skier won't ever know what it feels like to send a triple cork or a dub onto a rail.

 

[holson]

Meta progression offers endless possibilities.

Why would you want a new trick when you can have a whole new dimension? A whole new perspective. The bunch and co are progressing in a more interesting way, they add depth to the sport.

I just don't get the question of the poll... how could style be anything but subjective???

Start scoring fluidity. Amped 2 managed to do it in a videogame.... style is possible to be objective.

New-school Skiing is still so recent (20-25?years) There is a very specific Style that has surfaced because of this short era. 1st generation.. Teton Gravity, MSP with Tanner Hall, Candide Thovex, Pep Fujas... 2nd generation.. Henrik Harlaut, Tom Wallisch, Mike Hornbeck, and now at possibly the tail of that generation Stept, 4bi9, Faction... Sean Jordan, Tim Mcchesney, Joss Christensen, Adam Delorme. Yes media progression changes things. 3rd. generation of New school skiing style...? … The bunch, totally trevor, hoodcrew, ect ect.. is different because of media progression and most of them are not “professional skiers” so the majority doesnt get to view and appreciate their skiing. keeping it a small niche.

On style …

Who we are is modified based on what we are subjected to growing up..

Newschool skiing in my world is an aspect of skiing that was created on a basis of representation personality, creativity, style. My personal style is relative to me and others who have had experiences similar to me. The z boys and dogtown documentary about zephyr skate team talks about the guys style in a similar regard.

My introduction to Free-skiing was from watching ski videos that i stole from a shelf in my brothers room because i desperately missed him. Eventually my brother was always out traveling and I was home alone dealing with a ton of shit but when i watched that kind of skiing that he and his friends released I knew that they felt that way too. This kick started my love of free skiing and filming. Even though i didn't have resources to ski at the time. And i’m on the tail end of a generation because skiers have an unbelievably short shelf life in the modern world. Consider Tanner hall for instance his style is completely different than it used to be. But it is still style.

We could all just be stoked and grateful that he ever released footage of him skiing at all… we can watch and rewatch and share with younger generations if we choose. So who's to say what's to come to newschoolers.

To Mr. Bishop,

I believe fluidity is something that can be accomplished with practice and coaching, However it's not expressive. Therefore, I believe that it is not style. Additionally judging of any kind outside of the sports industry, i think, is considered subjective… “ in the Critique of judgement that Kant devotes to the creativity of the artist. ... in which personal, subjective responses are the sole basis of passing judgement.” - from Matthew Rampley in Nietzsche, Aesthetics and Modernity.

 

[davd]

This. When pros dub onto rails or triple cork how does it help skiing? It doesn't progress the sport because 99.9% of skiers can't do that trick. Think of it this way, technology is always progressing. Most people own smartphones now. How many people do you see with the first cell phone ever released that still actively use it as a method of communication? Nobody. Progression involves moving forward in a way that is accessible to most not just a very select few. Throwing a triple my look cool and impress people but it isn't truly progressing the sport as you won't ever see some kid throwing triples in their park. .

In my opinion, you can't say that when a new trick is stomped (like Russ's dub on) that it doesn't progressing the sport. I'm not saying whether it is good or not but it is pushing the limits and landing new tricks is a form of progression. it is advancing what is possible. Just because it you may not like where it is heading doesn't mean it isnt progressing.

 

[theabortionator]

A. OP's feeling are hurt

B. OP is sad about things he read

C. OP is offended by the internet

D. OP just wants to do cool ski trix

E. All of the above

 

[theabortionator]

Preach OP I'm glad someone finally said it

So today was the day you decided to crawl out from under your rock eh?

You've missed the introduction of doubles, triples, the talk of quads, years of xgames big air, the olympics, and several years of ski gabber, talk on the hills, articles like the one from david wise, and a million other things.

This discussion has been hashed/re hashed to death.

But yes, OP broke ground coming forward with such statements.

Channel 69 new joins us with OP live.

"OP how does it feel to be so brave?"

"Was it difficult to gather the courage to come forward with such a shocking viewpoint?"

"Are you worried what people may do to you, your family, or your cat?"

 

[JimmyRecard]

Every played Amped 2?

The tricks you did which made you say out loud "Unnhhhhhhhhh" were the ones that scored best. Sure flavor can't be judged, but fluidity is very possible to be scored.

The problem right now is defining style as "got the grab". That leads to form, just like aerials. Someone who executes THE shifty 5, straight to the bottom of the landing... that shit would be fluid as fuck - much more so than any grabbed trip billionspin.

I haven't played Amped 2, you making me wish I had, and I see your point.

 

[kylemclean]

So today was the day you decided to crawl out from under your rock eh?

You've missed the introduction of doubles, triples, the talk of quads, years of xgames big air, the olympics, and several years of ski gabber, talk on the hills, articles like the one from david wise, and a million other things.

This discussion has been hashed/re hashed to death.

But yes, OP broke ground coming forward with such statements.

Channel 69 new joins us with OP live.

"OP how does it feel to be so brave?"

"Was it difficult to gather the courage to come forward with such a shocking viewpoint?"

"Are you worried what people may do to you, your family, or your cat?"

I've been a part of all those debates and threads before and even read Wise's article but this isn't OP just saying stop spinning or spin to win. He is saying do whatever the fuck you want. Yes it has been said before but just with a short post of "do whatever you like" or "Don't tell other people how to ski". OP actually decided to put some reasoning into this mentality and explain it unlike most people who post/write about it

 

[theabortionator]

I've been a part of all those debates and threads before and even read Wise's article but this isn't OP just saying stop spinning or spin to win. He is saying do whatever the fuck you want. Yes it has been said before but just with a short post of "do whatever you like" or "Don't tell other people how to ski". OP actually decided to put some reasoning into this mentality and explain it unlike most people who post/write about it

There have been threads and articles on that side as well as a million posts.

Besides, it doesn't matter anyway. This campaign is useless until there's a meme getting shared to death on facebook. Everyone knows that's the only way to get the truth out.

 

[Deepskier]

Totally agree. People need to focus on creativity more and more flips and spins less. But hey we all need different outlooks on skiing for it to be interesting!

Hahahah ok lukas but like ive told you a thousand times big spins and shit can have fucking style like i dont get your kind like its the way the sport grows dont you think in like the super old days they were like oh doubles thats way to far for this sport but once people got used to them they made them styley and same with triples everyone just needs to un bunch their panties and deal with progression its not like gapers are going to start throwing doubles like its a mix of style and skill you cant go around and just manual everything possible and expect to win but you cant throw 10s like anders with a pole up your ass hole it needs to be like 50/50 ya feel me

 

[Poikenz]

The problem was, when the pros started to take the limits too far (which ended up being triples) and everyone started to follow suit - people at these air sites started to get really hurt. The pros started to get really hurt.

In aerials, you aren't allowed to take a trick to snow without landing it on a water ramp something like 50-100 times under the rigorous supervision of a qualified coach.

When the top level gets too dangerous for anyone to get there without years of rigorous training - and the concequence of fucking up is death/paralysis - shit gets real fucking lame, real fucking fast.

But what is worse, knowing that history is doomed to repeat itself or knowing that you (or anyone) can't stop it from happening? Not saying it will or won't happen as it is impossible to predict, but I am in no position to argue your stance.

Better scoring might do something, but it is only a matter of time. Not everyone listens someone will push the limits and it opens the flood gates. Look at film parts, urban features get bigger but it isn't judged (unless sales/ critiques and feedback count) so why would a new scoring system deter someone from throwing a quad?

 

[icyburr]

When someone does a legit hard trick they will never be able to do, their asses get ripped apart and they become literally butt hurt. Hard tricks give people legit injuries. People need to know that you might be safe doing that triple, but think of all the asses you're tearing apart. Put an end to this