Lionel Messi, the greatest ever?

okay. well i still think it's silly to discount what messi has done because of his barcelona team. every great player plays with other great players around them. well, except maradona, kind of. pele played on some of the best teams of all time and no one holds that against him. but i guess that's where our opinions differ. and i guess we have to wait and see what messi does with argentina in the future
 
I think it's undisputed now... The level the modern game is played at makes everything he's achieved even more epic..... The only difference is he probably would have had his legs broken back in the day!! Yes-greatest player ever to set foot on a pitch hands down.
 
the order should be...

1. Zizzou-best mid fielder of all time

2. Cruyff-dope as shit

3. ronaldo- great but did not win much

4. beckenbauer -BRICK FUCKING WALL ON DEFENSE!

 
Masshole has some good points. Statistically Messi doesn't does as well for Argentina as he does Barca, but there's not been much difference in the level of his performances, just the stats (from the games i've seen). In order to be classed as doing something on an international stage you really have to win the world cup, which both Di Stafano and Puskas didn't do. I know puskas record is insane in the 50's and 60's, but i just can't see him being as effective as he was then, if he played just now.Also, as you said he does have two of the best ever midfielders helping him out, but he has scored 50% of Barcas goals in 2012. He's also set up a lot of his goals and others by picking the ball from just over the half way line. Technically Zidane is arguably better than him and played in a completely different position. Honestly, i couldn't argue as he was one of my favourite players to watch.

Anyway, it's pretty much impossible to compare players from different positions that played in different eras. Thanks for the input, haven't heard the name Puskas or di stefano mentioned in a while, clearly know your football.

 
I just feel like quality of play without statistics isnt a great way to judge "Greatest-ever" comparisons. I agree Messi does "perform" at the international level, but clearly not as well as he would for Barca. 50% of goals for Barca is incredible, but who supplied them? I imagine many came from Xavi and Iniesta on a platter. This is all speculation however on my part. I would love to hear some statistics if anyone can find a credible source.

I do agree that Di Stefano and Puskas may not have been won anything on the international stage, but Puskas did lead Hungary to a 2nd place which is incredible IMO. More than Messi has done for sure. Di Stefano also was very unfortunate with his international career, with Argentina screwing him over multiple times (Argentina boycotting two WCs) and not reaching a WC until he was 36 which puts a damper on his international reputation. I also think that comparison between players then and now is unfair. So much has changed with regards to science, youth teams, etc. Who knows how they would have done. Its much like the Kobe/LBJ/MJ debate. Both sides think theyre right :)

I could go on debating about soccer for ages. Easily one of my favorite sports to debate/talk about.
 
its very hard to compare players and when you look at how a lot of people are not even agreeing on the top 3 of best players of all time, i see it as nearly impossible, although there will be a lot of people who will include him in that list.

i am 24 yrs old, so i havent seen pele, maradona or beckenbauer play.

and there is literally no good measure. if you make international titles a prerequisite, messi can go home. argentina is an above-average team talent wise but he cant carry them. when you look at how ronaldo carries an average portuguese squad all by himself (although i dont like ronaldo) and have them overachieve (although no titles) imo, thats a whole different story.

messi, to me, is a great player, no question, but he is as much a product of the system and his great supporting cast as he is a great player.

the best players i have ever seen are mostly based on one specific part of their games. like i can safely say that nani (although i am not a manchester fan) is among the top 3 players technique-wise i have ever seen. and i have never seen anyone lead a squad as oliver kahn has. drogba won the CL last year all by himself. when he went to take that last penalty shot, i wouldve put 1000 bucks on him ending the game right there and i am a bayern fan.

 
i dunno. sure argentina has incredible fire power up front, but i'd say portugal has a stronger midfield and defense than argentina does. i don't think portugal have over-achieved considering the players they have.

again, all great players play with great supporting casts, why does this count against messi at barca but not ronaldo at madrid, zidane with france/madrid, pele at santos/brazil etc. etc. etc.?

nani is among the top 3 players you have ever seen in terms of technique!? well, i guess it depends what you mean by technique.

not sure about the exact number, but i know last year xavi and iniesta combined assisted less than 10 of messi's goals. that being said, a players influence doesn't always show up in stats, as you guys have been saying
 
youre right, that counts for ronaldo too in madrid.

and you can make a case that portugal has a great squad, its all subjective.

just the one thing that one could say is, is that messi is nearly invisible (like WC 2010) with argentina, when ronaldo IS portugal.

well that nani thin is entirely based on this years EURO. he has ronaldo standing on the other wing, playing against spain for example, and to me, he was the technically best player on that field. not saying he is overly efficient though.

but just handling the ball in small spaces and handling the ball while sprinting, he was superior to all the other guys on the pitch that day imo, which puts him above xavi, iniesta and ronaldo to name the most important ones and just into my top 3 that i can name off the top of my head.

i cant really name an "overall" top 3, but those were just a few people coming to my mind and its pretty obvious that not too many people will agree, but thats sports.

 
I think the better debate is whether Barca of the past couple years is the best team to ever play the game, to which I would say yes and that Messi is a huge part of it. He is the best player on the best team of all time and as a result has the "best" scoring stats to date, its really simple. The argument about whether he is the best player of all time is foolish.

In my opinion, he is the best player in the world right now, though to compare him to anyone that is not currently playing the game, like Pele or Maradona, is a stretch.
 
i dunno. at least for me, even though messi wasn't scoring for argentina at WC 2010, he was still their best and by far most dangerous player. the finishing definitely wasn't there, but i think its going a little far to say he was bad or invisible.

i guess it depends on how you define "technique." i've seen zidane or iniesta control balls that i thought would be impossible to take down and it's kind of like a "woah" moment, which i dont get as much watching fantastic dribblers like nani. but to each his own, of course
 
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