K2/LINE.....made in China?

this is true...i love the skis....really i do....ive had zero issue with quality....my point is with everything going on right now, whats more important......profit margins or the future of this country?
 
first of all...the MBA comment was in reply to someone who jumped in trying to belittle me, talking about "welcome to economics".....so i didnt say that to sound cool as much as that i know how it works and that he was wrong....its not economics......as far the other rant....i apologized for it but it wasnt actually directed at the one kid......it started out in reply to him but i really didnt mean to be derogatory toward him......i was kind of generally speaking and again, i'm sorry if i came off that way.....i do not mean to be dicky to anyone......i keep trying to bite my tongue on this issue and am seriously just concerned with what people think about it......i would love to look down at my next set of lines and see "made in the usa"....im not sayin a need a graphic thats a flag or anything like that.....it just bothers me that the company ive supported and made excuses for all these years still is outsourcing their jobs......yet the production savings they get are not translated back to the customer.....yes they put out regular vids and thats cool....yes they dump alot of money into R&D and theyre skis are amazing......so i get that......but theres a ton of kids who would love to press skis for line.....and imagine that one kid who really has the passion and starts tinkering around in their off hours and comes up with some new type of ski that we would of never thought of......something that revolutionizes skiing......do you think theres someone in the chinese factory doing that?.....or with that mindset?......hell no......meanwhile our country is in a sad state of affairs and china has since passed us as an economic superpower....why?.....because they make everything we buy now because some company wanted more profits.......ironic but greed literally killed our economy.
 
i will agree with you that it would be cool to look down at my lines and see that they are made in the usa. in fact, when i first got my lines, i was surprised and a little disappointed to see the "made in china" label etched into the midsole.

however, I don't necessarily think it is wrong for a company to want to increase profit margin. it's being able to make the most money that incentivizes businesses to work hard. i bet you the top dogs at line still make a relatively small figure compared to other business execs at other companies outside the industry. and neither do i think it is unethical for them to be giving jobs to chinese workers. many businesses have excellent relations with their workers overseas, and they actually provide them with a means to live. is it unethical to provide people with jobs and money, regardless of what country it is?

as for china passing us as an economic superpower, this is definitely a widely spread misconception. china has a 9.4 percent urban unemployment rate, which is about in line with the USA's overall unemployment rate. however, when we look at there rural unemployment rate, this number jumps up to around 20 percent. in 2009. china's GDP was just under 5 trillion. adjusted for purchasing power, this jumps up to just over 9 trillion. despite having a population that is only 1/4 the size of china's, the USA's GDP was over 14 trillion when adjusting for purchasing power, and almost 15 trillion unadjusted. the USA's average income was 4 times as great as china's as well ($48,000 and under $4000 respectively). of course there is the argument that china's economy is grower at a much more rapid rate than the US, which is true. however, history tells us that just because there has been a trend for the past 30 years, doesn't mean it is going to continue. for an example, just look at Japan's staggering growth rates from 1970 to the early 1990's followed by an essential flatline for almost the last 2 decades. China's growth, too, faces obstacles such as limited natural resources relative to the population, a restrictive government, and a labor force that will decrease by 1/5 within the next couple generations.

again, i concede that my arguments may be flawed due to my limited knowledge on the subject, and the fact that my future projections, are simply projections, just like anyone else who projects china will overtake us in the future. there is no way of actually being able to tell. still, i do believe my viewpoints are realistic from an economic standpoint, which, after all, is a social science, a study of what motivates people as consumers and businesses, rather than a mere study of figures.

in the end, i agree with you that it would be great to see Line's and K2's skis to be made in the USA, and respect your views in why you don't want to support these businesses until they do. but for me, i see no wrong in supporting companies that want to do well financially. i have always received quality products from line, despite their foreign make (again, this may not be the case for someone else). by supporting line i am still supporting american employees as well as chinese ones, which is alright by me.
 
semi related note, Salomon makes their liners near our boot production factory in Romania but we (Atomic) make our liners in China (in a factory that I am proud to say is quite nicer than most anything else I've seen around the world). In short, what this allows us to do is for the same cost we can produce a nicer liner than our competitors (rather than simply make the same product cheaper and pocket the difference). When you compare our liners to the competition (of equal retail value), we are able to use higher end lining materials, memory foams, and outer materials which at the end of day make our liners fit and feel better.
 
no thats a decent analysis regardless of your knowledge....but there is a trend as of late, or a push, to no longer use US currency for international trading and blah blah blah.....but you get my point.....i dunno....maybe im way off base with this whole thread.....people can spin it to sound great and all that.....it really wasnt a patriotic thing.....and like i said before, if line were a chinese company making skis in china i would have no issue.....it just breaks your heart to look down and see that on your skis.
 
and yeah i get this too....i know its more complex than profit margins in some cases.....who knows....guess maybe i'm way off base with this.....i really was curious though to how people felt about it mostly.....like what if I have a US company and maybe I've got an option to ship alot of my jobs out to china....regardless of why, should i do it?....would people still buy my product if I kill jobs here knowingly and create jobs in a country with horrendous ecological and human rights track records?
 
lol you obviously dont have an mba, either that or you cheated your entire way through school.

sending US jobs out of country while our economy is in disarray is economics huh?

yes it is, you just don't understand the difference between the word economy and economic.

Economics is the social science that analyzes the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services.
 
It's funny you begin a debate then get mad when people disagree w/ you. MBA? Where? Anyway the fact that American business's are finding ways to maintain profitability at a time when our government is failing is amazing. Point your finger in the mirror or at your countries leaders.
 
dude when i said that.....it was in reply to the post that said "welcome to economics".....so i was making a joke that was actually along the same lines as what you just said....ugh....facepalm.....and as far "you obviously dont have an MBA"......seriously?......you copy and pasted a definition......and a shitty one at that......now i could sit here and attempt to inflate my own ego with a bunch of business mumbo jumbo that would make your whole post null and void but again.....this isnt about me.....forget the mba remark...jesus....i was trying to prove a point and yet again people are jumping into threads starting arguements just to argue.....its actually kinda funny.....cause i bet if i made a thread talking about how great it is that K2/lines are made in china, YOU would jump in giving me a bunch of shit about how bad it is.......it really is quite comical to watch.....talk about "social sciences"....haha
 
did you read the original post?.....i didnt start a debate.....i was asking what people thought.....i woulda been content with peeps comin in with a like it/dislike it simple answer......but when ya come in talkin smack and then tryin to school me on it.....c'mon really....for all you know i run that whole umbrella company and am just feelin out consumer opinion.....i dont....hahaha....but ya never know
 
The one lesson I remember from Econ110 is ::

For every $10billion dollars pumped into China's economy, most of which goes to purchasing nearly insignificant plastic items - the US sells 10 Boeing Jumbo Jets to said country and the costs are off set. The difference is that it is demanded of the employees behind the new Boeing jet (from design to production) to be well educated with high paying jobs, but the employees in China can be w/o an education to perform the task.

10million low paying factory chinese jobs < 100 high paying American jobs in terms of the benefit to the economy.

Maybe my professor was a raging lunatic though...
 
you could spin it a hundred different ways and make it sound positive or negative....even getting into the hardcore business lingo......i was just curious if people cared.......im over it though.....seems like people care more about whos right and who has the best spelling and attacking things that dont make sense.....its like asking, "oooh you have a scary zombie mask on. Why did you pick that?" and you get the reply of "I like turtles".......are people really that tarted?
 
^understood. I also agree that our economy is absolute crap right now. I just wanted to point out that ski manufacturing jobs are not "high paying" so leave it to the Chinese. However, ski design and the business side of things should always remain in the US (for K2/LINE), because those actually demand some sort of talent and education.
 
yeah thats the setup they have now......but like i posted before....do ya think theres someone in the chinese factory pressing skis that says, "wow ya know what would work way better?".....cause i doubt it.....think i read somethin somewhere that said theres like a total of about 500 skiers in china and one resort with one lift....hahaha.....someone is missing an untapped market.....lol....not sure about that so dont quote me on it......actually after seeing what happened to apple i'm sure all 500 of those skiers are on faux lines called like "lone skis".....hahaha.....and instead of K2 they rebranded those as "R2D2 skis".......lmao......its whatever though.....i kinda had a hard on about it a few days ago but now its like, only a few people care.....the rest just want to argue jus to argue.....i'm pretty over it.....lets let it die shall we?
 
True about line, but it does show an overarching trend that is somewhat disturbing, another disturbing thing about working with and becomeing dependant on china is the possible lack of recipriocation, in the fact that what ever our companies have that is a proprietary technology, the chinese will never become dependant on, because they will just copy it exactly with no recourse.
 
I think that the idea that if a company is in China, then jobs were lost in the US. I don't think that is always true. What's better, a company that hires graphic artists, warehouse and shipping guys, and all the other employees needed in the US headquarters but happens to manufacture overseas? Or a company that goes out of business due to making skis in the US, whose costs are so high that they go bankrupt? Just because you are making goods in China, that doesn't necessarily mean you are losing jobs in the US. It can be a big help to the US economy by ADDING jobs.

Plus, all skis are handmade, and the Chinese produce a lot of very high quality items, such as snow skis. There's also a huge benefit to Americans because the products cost less, which puts extra spending dollars in the pockets of skiers. Chinese skis are almost always cheaper than US made skis. Maybe not a lot, but I think the difference is significant.

 
are you fucking kidding me??????

first off, in china, the skis are made almost every step of the way by machine. IN NO WAY ARE THEY HANDMADE

second, china in general produces shit compared to us made things, there not necessarily that bad with skis. but look at moment, they have much better quality then any Chinese made brand, because they are at least touched by a human during the manufacturing possess.

maybe you dont realize this, but, a ski that line charges $600 for costs about $100 to have made and shipped to the US. the reason they have them made in china it to increase profit margin. they could easily have that ski made in the US, charge the same amount for it, and wouldn't lose that much of the profit margin, maybe $30-75. and then if you look at all the additional support from the govt and people they would get, it would help more. yes, they wont be making as much money per ski now, but it would be better for the economy NO DOUBT!
 
What prices are you looking at? If you pick a ski out of Line's quiver and compare it to a similar ski from another popular brand the prices are gonna be almost identical. In fact, take the Armada JJ and Pollard's Opus. The Opus actually costs a bit more. So tell me where this whole China thing pays off for the skier and we pocket money? You can do this with a bunch of companies, this is just the quickest example off the top of my head.
 
It's all profit margins to line k2's pockets. It means they can make them cheaper, but still sell them at the same price, hence a larger profit.

When I'm putting down a lot of money for crafted goods that I'm going to use with passion I would like them to have been crafted with passion, not in a factory whose workers probably have little or no idea what skiing is all about. Hence why I would rather buy my skis that have been made in places like austria, france, italy, america, canada etc. not china.
 
You don't know what you are talking about. Seriously, before you rip into me check your facts. They have the exact same presses, if not better in China as the US. Do you know anything about making skis? You use a CNC machine to cut out the core to your specifications. No one does this by hand unless they are making super shitty, inconsistent skis. You lay it up in a mold. You put all the layers in the mold or cassette starting with the base, then core, then fiberglass, then topsheet, etc. PEOPLE do this with their hands and then PEOPLE lay up the skis with epoxy/resin systems. PEOPLE put the topsheet on. PEOPLE put the whole thing in the press and press it for a period of time. PEOPLE take the pressed skis out of the mold. PEOPLE cut the excess layers off. PEOPLE then run it over a stone or belt to get the proper base structure.

Seriously, go fuck yourself. You don't know shit. Every factory uses PEOPLE for the majority of ski making no matter what part of the world they happen to live in. Machines are used extensively, run by PEOPLE. There are some things that machines do, like profiling the cores and using CNC machines which are much more exact then doing it by hand. This happens in China as well as the US.

And I disagree about your Moment statement, but I don't want to get into that because I think they are a pretty good brand, but it has nothing to do with manufacturing in the US versus China.
 
why dont you go watch the moment factory tour video, they dont do it anything like that in china. and line and K2 arnt considered handmade.
 
I'm down with it. They're generally quite a bit cheaper than most other skis (at least where I live), and as for pure handmade vs machine assisted (to whatever degree)? Machines don't get drunk as fuck and forget to glue your edges properly when they come to work half-cut on Monday.
 
Actually you would be very surprised if you went to tour a factory in China. I don't claim that I have, but I've known people who have. You simply don't know. Ski and snowboard manufacturing is very similar whether it's K2, Burton, Line, Volkl, Armada, Moment, Never Summer, etc. My point is you ripped into me with knowledge from a tour at the Moment factory. I see now that you don't consider k2 and line handmade, but I think you are wrong. Do some research.

Buy skis on quality and price and customer service. If it's important to you that they are made in the US, you have plenty of good brands to choose from. But don't fall under the misconception that skis made overseas in China are not hand made or have inferior quality. It is simply not true.
 
try to buy things made in the USA whenever possible, outsourcing fucking everything is myopic and cheap, and i have never noticed a lower price due to it.. anyway i dont like lines much anyway and have never skied anything k2 so it's a non issue for me really
 
You get what you pay for, but that includes the labor, materials, warranty, and customer service that comes with the product.
If it matters to the buyer, they get the satisfaction of knowing they supported skiers getting a livable wage in America.
 
You are unfortunately way wrong about China. Some of the arguments here about companies moving/producing in China are valid, but this one is not.

Whether a ski is made here in Austria, Utah, or China a human is present at almost ever step in the production process. You can't just dump a bunch of ingredients into a machine and get a ski.

The fact is, producing in China is cheaper. This can mean a couple of things but mainly these: first, a company can produce the same level of quality for cheaper, or second, a company can produce a higher level of quality for the same price. We produce our liners in China for the second reason. The available materials, the production processes, the work force are much better in China than in Europe for this type of product.
 
The decision came down to many reasons but they were able to make a BETTER product for less money to their end customer... who is you. I dont know what you knew about K2 skis in the later 90's but if you were around you would have seen the incredible rate of returns that they had due to breakage. Quality needed to go up while keeping costs the same or lower thus a major part of the reason for moving production to China. Also, you have to remember the US is not the only place in the world that skis.... There are many other countries as well and this is also happening in their countries. Look at Atomic and Salomon they are not making skis in the same place they were a few years ago either. I have no problem with them moving the factory to China, it is a global economy and that move was made over 10 years ago. Not to mention K2/Line's quality of product is one of the best if not the best when it comes to quality control. Many of the the Volkl's for the past few years were coming out of China as well and they had excellent finished product, as where the Germany made skis, once known for their dominance in this area, was coming through with very poor base and top sheet finishes.
 
That's what I've been trying to say. Quality has nothing to do with manufacturing in the US or Europe. It's the highly skilled workers creating the product, and Chinese are highly skilled. Many bike companies are moving production overseas, and often quality is paramount in their decision making. Yeti makes their stuff in Taiwan. If you go meet those guys that run the company, they would be extremely insulted if you didn't think they were passionate about mountain biking. Chinese quality is often very, very good. If you are a manufacturer, if you can have the same quality, or better, with stuff manufactured in China then this creates extra dollars for the AMERICAN company so they can HIRE MORE PEOPLE in the US, whether it's a graphics guy, sponsored skiers, warehouse guys, etc. Manufacturing in China can often ADD jobs to the US economy.
 
I drilled into more volkl gotamas with fucked up cores srtaight from the factory the first year they rockered them than I can count, every factory will always have their problems, its not like going to china is going to fix that
 
Atomic has been making skis in Altenmarkt Austria since 1971. Before that, the factory was 10 minutes away Wagrain. We do have a second factory in Bulgaria, but the bulk of our skis come out of Altenmarkt.
 
Good debate and a viable issue for some. Yep, our skis are conceptualized, developed, prototyped, designed and engineered in the Pacific Northwest (you see this in our videos) and mass produced in a factory in a kick ass, state of the art factory in China who's workers take great pride in making skis for people around the world! And yes, it's not near a ski area but we did take them all skiing indoors. This isn't uncommon across all manufacturers of goods so the final decision comes down to the consumer. You can choose, that's the great thing about 'merica! Debate on!

-Josh @ Line
 
this def bothers me... i got a line backpack and the quality was pretty shitty, and then i see the made in China tag. im also getting the chronics next weekend, and im surprised there made in china. the begining of revolver has always made me think line was made in the US
 
yeah dont get it twisted......i love line skis....been buying them since the beginning when i lived in VT......Every set of skis in my quiver are lines, most recent is the opus....looks amazing, skis amazing.....i love everything about it EXCEPT that it says made in china on it......knowing the history of jay and all that.....its just embarrasing.....jays a real good guy and i have really been proud to say that ive stuck with that guy since the beginning......but it literally embarrasses me to look down at my skis and see that......its not that their inferior skis or that the chinese are inferior.....but take some pride in your product and where ya come from ya know?.....i dont mean that as an insult....i mean literally......im so tired of using the K2 excuse for line when people say i'm riding shitty china skis.......i want to be proud to look down at my skis and see "made in the usa".......but like i said....guess its whatever.....not too many take pride in their country anymore and everyones a globalist these days......i mean no ill will to line........but i fought and bled for this country and i gotta stand for somethin.
 
They will use the same process to make the ski if they make it in china or in the us in my view the only thing wrong with it is it's taking away from amarican jobs
 
first off, all your ...'s are making me want to kill myself.

also, why are you so worked up that a ski company is trying to make a few extra bucks by moving manufacturing to a different country? does it effect your job? have you been planning on manufacturing line skis in a factory all your life and now that it has moved to china you are upset? I'm not insulting you in anyway, just I hear this crap all the time. I dont think merica' is going to self destruct because some jobs making skis disappeared.

IMO: I would never let the origin of a ski make up my final decision on purchasing said ski. Clearly they are durrable and very popular skis. if there was serious warenty issues and delam or edges ripping out regularly then i would go into questioning. but the fact that these skis are well manufactured i dont see which country they were made in an issue.
 
ec·o·nom·ics   [ek-uh-nom-iks, ee-kuh-]

1. the science that deals with the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services, or the material welfare of humankind.

is this not exactly what we're talking about?

Cost of Production goes down and Retail price stays the same. Result? profit margin goes up. Should I make you a graph?

Think about what I said before. Almost all products you touch or use were imported from somewhere else.

Like someone else said, start worrying about your food and your fuel. Prices Americans spend on skis are a drop in the bucket compared to what is spent on food and fuel out of the US. And there are a lot more people working in that industry, too.

If someone wants to start their own ski design, start their own company. Lots of people are doing it.

 
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