Is Vail Resorts mandating changes in their parks or something?

[dant02]

I keep seeing bits of info that lead me to believe Vail resorts is scaling back terrain parks at their resorts. I hear about long time park crew members leaving places like Keystone and Breckenridge due to poor management/direction that vail is taking parks in. Feel like I heard something about them scaling back on xl hits. Also saw rip freeway on a few posts...

 

[a_burger]

Simple formula

Shareholders don't see the value (immediate profit) in them so the parent company asks individual resorts to decrease the budget. Resort management (old people) don't care for parks one way or the other so they cut budgets until the staff are forced to do the bare minimum. Staff then leaves and is replaced with ambitious crew that bangs there head into the wall for a few seasons before giving up or yes men who are content with not pushing the envelope.

 

[The.Fish]

To be fair, the xl parks probably aren't the best return on investment since only about 1% of skiers are skilled enough to hit them. They also take a crap ton of snow and cat hours to build. Why bother spending money on something if almost nobody will use it?

 

[sqeellicbic]

Mt Snow is doing that exact thing. The parks are gonna be unchanged except their xl booters are gonna be a little smaller.

 

[mountaindewgirl]

Fatass terrain parks are the nose on the face of Breckenridge and Keystone. Without the parks, without the stoke, there is no attraction. The parks will only get sicker if we direct our energy that way. Don't you even put that bad juju out there.

 

[ohhbecker]

Maybe if you live out west. But here on in the east apparently Vail looks at our parks as fat to be trimmed. Fuck Vail buying everything. This is the first year in a long long time Mount Snow hasn’t opened our park only peak on opening day. Thanks Vail for prioritizing profits instead of social distancing!! Instead we had 50+ people crowding 5 features set on the upper mountain in a random ass corner. Again fuck Vail. It’s honestly sad, all the employees are pissed too. They fired senior people and now can’t get anyone to work. It’s a shit show.

**This post was edited on Nov 26th 2020 at 9:18:52am

 

[b0ss]

To be fair, the xl parks probably aren't the best return on investment since only about 1% of skiers are skilled enough to hit them. They also take a crap ton of snow and cat hours to build. Why bother spending money on something if almost nobody will use it?

In vail you might as well skip the whole peecentage thing and say 2 or 3 locals.

 

[sqeellicbic]

Maybe if you live out west. But here on in the east apparently Vail looks at our parks as fat to be trimmed. Fuck Vail buying everything. This is the first year in a long long time Mount Snow hasn’t opened our park only peak on opening day. Thanks Vail for prioritizing profits instead of social distancing!! Instead we had 50+ people crowding 5 features set on the upper mountain in a random ass corner. Again fuck Vail. It’s honestly sad, all the employees are pissed too. They fired senior people and now can’t get anyone to work. It’s a shit show.

**This post was edited on Nov 26th 2020 at 9:18:52am

What does vail have to do with the features on opening day? Did they not allow for them to have more or something? I though the lack of features was just since it was warm and there isn't much snow. If carinthia is just meh this year because of vail i'm gonna be pissed

 

[kbrando]

Maybe if you live out west. But here on in the east apparently Vail looks at our parks as fat to be trimmed. Fuck Vail buying everything. This is the first year in a long long time Mount Snow hasn’t opened our park only peak on opening day. Thanks Vail for prioritizing profits instead of social distancing!! Instead we had 50+ people crowding 5 features set on the upper mountain in a random ass corner. Again fuck Vail. It’s honestly sad, all the employees are pissed too. They fired senior people and now can’t get anyone to work. It’s a shit show.

**This post was edited on Nov 26th 2020 at 9:18:52am

Im pretty sure the seasonably warm November with limited snow making opportunities had more to do with Carinthia not opening then Vail did

 

[Saga.]

Exactly this. Remember how every resort in the 2000s had a halfpipe? Snow features require more snow, more equipment use and more labor hours. When you're looking at what type of terrain the majority of your customers are paying for and what type of terrain you're spending the most money on it's not hard to see the difference and why some resorts will scale back parks.

Unless my college professors were lying to me, real estate is what keeps ski resorts running. The last time I checked I didn't see very many current or potential homeowners lapping the park. Resorts aren't likely to put money into aspects of their business that aren't proven to bring them a solid return on their investment.

To be fair, the xl parks probably aren't the best return on investment since only about 1% of skiers are skilled enough to hit them. They also take a crap ton of snow and cat hours to build. Why bother spending money on something if almost nobody will use it?

 

[uturn]

They dumped loads of money into snowmaking at the Sunapee park last year

 

[anders_a]

I think its short sighted thinking, we grow older, we get more money, I've been looking at different places in the mountains now, both standalone, and appartments, and I still lap the park.

At the new indoor near the capital, they have a majority of it made into a park, the other side racing, like 20-25% is left for regular skiiing. They are also developing a ton of apartments nearby and calculating the youth will have somewhere to go.

Its not like the best steepest slopes are turned into parks

 

[nellyyy]

Mount Snow having a small setup for opening week has extraordinarily little to do with Vail Resorts management. It's been stupid warm in the east coast and snowmaking has been tough. They built a small setup on the main mountain because they could only make so much snow to have a very limited opening and simply haven't been able to get to Carinthia yet. I'm surprised Vail/Mount Snow management found it cost effective to bothering opening at all this week.

 

[katrina]

Breck doesn't have dew tour in early December anymore too, so there's A) no reason to devote that much water to blowing those jumps in November, and B) since like no one hit freeway jumps anyways anymore no reason to blow snow for them at all. Freeway was way more populated like 8 years ago than it was most recently. Bottom three were still like 50ish feet so for all us normal ass people (and old people like me) I feel like that's plenty. Plus everyone and their mom went to copper.

 

[TOAST.]

Mt Snow is doing that exact thing. The parks are gonna be unchanged except their xl booters are gonna be a little smaller.

Orange paint on the lips, that's a change although very minor I hate the look. Rumor has it vail is cutting back park space at the resorts they purchased around me last year. No way they keep Carinthia 100% park. They'll probably drop it down to 3 trails, small, medium, large. Peak was oddly very in favour of parks.

To me it's very short sighted for vail to cut back on parks. Seems like a majority of kids at smaller mountains dabble in the park some and these are the kids that are more likely to continue skiing their whole life and take trips out west. Sure the rich people will always spend the money but ex park riders may be a less wealthy demographic they could start pulling.

 

[soup]

I think its short sighted thinking, we grow older, we get more money, I've been looking at different places in the mountains now, both standalone, and appartments, and I still lap the park.

At the new indoor near the capital, they have a majority of it made into a park, the other side racing, like 20-25% is left for regular skiiing. They are also developing a ton of apartments nearby and calculating the youth will have somewhere to go.

Its not like the best steepest slopes are turned into parks

I would say a small fraction (that 1% stat applies) of newschoolers membership will be a ski resort real estate purchaser. I'm talking on property real estate not in a ski town. So no its unfortunately not a good return on investment saying "hopefully that Rasta coloured park rat makes some solid stock choices and can buy this $3million spot beside lift 7!"

 

[GayWolf420]

im not familiar with other situations at other mountains, but i do at least respect the park crews here in PC for taking feedback from like local ski teams or shredders cuz yeah they do listen and they do a decent job of fixing features to some degree. Its always been a consistent park thanks to that imo. Sucks the funds are getting cut year after year but the love for the labor is still there at least for some which is cool-

 

[b0ss]

Maybe corporate lost their interest in park when rich white 12 year olds started swearing, throwing gang signs and intimidating little kids rather than helping them understand park policies in a mature manner. Just a guess, Im probs a lunatic though so don't listen to me.

 

[.nasty]

I was bummed to see Freeway go away in Breck since it was so iconic in a sense, but in reality it wasn't the best use of resources especially when dew tour left Breck. Once they got rid of it last season they were able to open much more of the mountain earlier which helps spread people out better.

 

[Mayrandpodcast]

Exactly this. Remember how every resort in the 2000s had a halfpipe? Snow features require more snow, more equipment use and more labor hours. When you're looking at what type of terrain the majority of your customers are paying for and what type of terrain you're spending the most money on it's not hard to see the difference and why some resorts will scale back parks.

Unless my college professors were lying to me, real estate is what keeps ski resorts running. The last time I checked I didn't see very many current or potential homeowners lapping the park. Resorts aren't likely to put money into aspects of their business that aren't proven to bring them a solid return on their investment.

Maybe this generation will buy a condo and go shred the parks. Personnally, i'm at that stage. Got a kid, would look into real estater in the next few years and still love going in the park, but hey maybe im a tiny minority.

 

[Yung_Gnarley]

this thread is making me feel really lucky to have gotten to lap keystone and breck when they had the XL parks still. Keystone's especially. They had some of the most absurd setups

 

[Mayrandpodcast]

this thread is making me feel really lucky to have gotten to lap keystone and breck when they had the XL parks still. Keystone's especially. They had some of the most absurd setups

Yup, We were a big crew of guys from Quebec going each year just to shred those parks

 

[207]

this thread is making me feel really lucky to have gotten to lap keystone and breck when they had the XL parks still. Keystone's especially. They had some of the most absurd setups

exactly my thoughts. Glad I got to experience peak Summit County when Keystone and Breck ran shit and literally nobody skied at Copper. Times have changed it's wild.

 

[BagOTricks]

Maybe I'm out of touch due to being a midwester but it seems Ikon mountains + Woodward are becoming the new heavy weights in park. Maybe Vail realizes that and is scaling back in areas that have an Ikon Woodward combo already (Breck/Keystone due to Copper, Mt. Snow due to Killy)? Otherwise they'd have to pump a ton of $ into the parks in those areas to compete.

Idk makes sense to me but I could be way off. Also does Ikon/Woodward have an agreement to work together? Seems like Woodward is really pushing the envelope to be the premiere park builders in the future.

 

[jakeordie]

Seems like Woodward is really pushing the envelope to be the premiere park builders in the future.

Chris Gunnarson is the GM at Woodward Park City now. So yeah, I think you're right.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Makes sense for profits, I'm sure. If you want rich people to buy a slopeside house to stay at once a year between Christmas and new year then you better cater to them. Most likely they're not out there hitting the XL jumpline. They're probably they type of people who complain such a thing even exists and support rampant policing and dumbing down of the ski resort so it's a safe, bubble wrapped zone for them to exist in. These same people probably are the majority shareholders, owners, bigwigs and whoever that call the shots. They want money funneled into what they like, and so there goes your parks.

Also from a liability standpoint, I'm sure nobody wants XL features. Some gaper can send it off the little jump and only get a little hurt, but if they do that off the big boy jump and get paralyzed for life then that's a bit of a mess for the resort to deal with.

 

[katrina]

Makes sense for profits, I'm sure. If you want rich people to buy a slopeside house to stay at once a year between Christmas and new year then you better cater to them. Most likely they're not out there hitting the XL jumpline. They're probably they type of people who complain such a thing even exists and support rampant policing and dumbing down of the ski resort so it's a safe, bubble wrapped zone for them to exist in. These same people probably are the majority shareholders, owners, bigwigs and whoever that call the shots. They want money funneled into what they like, and so there goes your parks.

Also from a liability standpoint, I'm sure nobody wants XL features. Some gaper can send it off the little jump and only get a little hurt, but if they do that off the big boy jump and get paralyzed for life then that's a bit of a mess for the resort to deal with.

I saw that happen once in park Lane's "small" jump line. Never want to see it again.

 

[Saga.]

Makes sense for profits, I'm sure. If you want rich people to buy a slopeside house to stay at once a year between Christmas and new year then you better cater to them. Most likely they're not out there hitting the XL jumpline. They're probably they type of people who complain such a thing even exists and support rampant policing and dumbing down of the ski resort so it's a safe, bubble wrapped zone for them to exist in.

What you said about holiday travelers and park features is absolutely a real thing. I worked for the Northstar park crew in the late 2000s. When Christmas break came around we were instructed to keep all the parks family friendly. It wasn't until this period was over when we were allowed to build larger/more progressive features. I can't say it's an official resort policy. But it was said and enforced by my boss at the time.

 

[theabortionator]

Mt Snow is doing that exact thing. The parks are gonna be unchanged except their xl booters are gonna be a little smaller.

We'll see with mt snow and big boulder. I'd love if they kept the parks up to the caliber they were but idk. I wouldn't be surprised if they go on a decent decline.

Also shoutout to vail for posting shitty generic posts across all social media since they took over those mtns. Had to unfolow some of the parks. (I follow even some of the toniest parks in the world to nerd out on park stuff and see what people are building)

Cool use your fucking main resort account or make a real most you shot ass person behind that computer.

Seems like northstar and keystone still drop some serious $$ into parks. Keystone might be slacking with the shitty co snow year. That says I think copper is the spot. They've been investing consistently in having sick parks.

I think mt snow and boulder will still have dope parks but theylll take a serious hit. Pat Morgan leaving boulder is sad.

Also fuck vail. Glad im done with that company for the last time. Honestly with the right crew I wouldn't say I wouldn't work at a vr mtn again accept they'd never pay me the even not unreasonable $ itd take for me to consider. I'd rather work at taco bell. Some mtns still have enough good guys on the crews they're still pushing but vail parks are on their way out. Hoping we see a wave of the small guys.

Actually it's been happening. Guys moving uo at small hills, going back to home hills, or leaving corporate ski life and working at smaller hills. Would love to see a big wave of quality park building.

With social media added in a lot of mtns that were clueless are stepping it up. Hope it's a big trend.

 

[theabortionator]

Exactly this. Remember how every resort in the 2000s had a halfpipe? Snow features require more snow, more equipment use and more labor hours. When you're looking at what type of terrain the majority of your customers are paying for and what type of terrain you're spending the most money on it's not hard to see the difference and why some resorts will scale back parks.

Unless my college professors were lying to me, real estate is what keeps ski resorts running. The last time I checked I didn't see very many current or potential homeowners lapping the park. Resorts aren't likely to put money into aspects of their business that aren't proven to bring them a solid return on their investment.

You can build a killer jib fleet for cheap and not drop that much to set it up and maintain.

Obviously this is why a lot of mtns have a ton of rails. Also diveristy in features, ability to chsnge out. Moving the jump line just isn't reasonable. But for a mtn with mad $$$ to barely even have any decent rails in 2020 is just pathetic.

I've worked at mtn with basically 0 budget and we had pretty sick rail parks.

Fuck rob and his shitty hairless inbred cats.

 

[thatsG]

Theres a kid on tik Tok who says his dad is a vp at vail resorts, we could spam him until they build freeway

 

[Dlonetti]

Maybe not the vail you think of but I ski at afton alps in MN which is owned by vail and theyre definitely scaling back park. The park crew told us they arent getting as much money this year and less snow is being blown on the hill this year. Said likely no kind of large jump this year, we are sad

 

[katrina]

Theres a kid on tik Tok who says his dad is a vp at vail resorts, we could spam him until they build freeway

Check the trail map this year, freeway is a blue groomer now, so signs of even blowing the pipe yet, but maybe that will change once we get some more natural snow.

 

[thatsG]

Check the trail map this year, freeway is a blue groomer now, so signs of even blowing the pipe yet, but maybe that will change once we get some more natural snow.

They took zoom room off the map at beaver, no signs of life at golden peak either

 

[theabortionator]

They took zoom room off the map at beaver, no signs of life at golden peak either

Beaver creek parks are dying hard. Im glad i saw that when i worked there in 2014 and ran the fuck away. Wishes i hadn't even done that season honestly. Cool mtn though. After getting there wasn't surprised why i had gotten a call back so quickly. In december when i decided to gtfo of ny kinda had to take it a jerb when offered. Got some other hits after i had locked in to bc.

They had some pretty cool features and rodeo was still worth lapping but now that most of their parks are gone whsts the point.

 

[ohhbecker]

If you can’t see what’s happening at Mount Snow via Vail, you haven’t been there long enough or haven’t been paying attention. I’ve been riding there for 20 years, I’m fucking old now.

Mount Snow has built its modern reputation on having the best park in the NE starting in 2001 when they hosted the X Games. While they’ve had up and downs they’ve constantly competed for that title, and since Carintha had the whole peak it had been undeniable, the old lodge was also an insane park kids dream. PS4s and Xbox’s with couches in the lodge, a mini ramp on the deck.

In past years Mount Snow would open 1 park in Carinthia and not open the summit lift on the main face initially, then they would work on connecting the two. This year they opened the Northface peak and summit lift, the main face trails and summit lift, but no Carinthia. Vail is operating all of these resorts they bought as if they’re out west and they’re not, Vail does not understand the East Coast skier mentality.

It’s absolutely Vail and corporate. They absolutely fired a lot of core employees, and now can’t hire anyone. If you need proof go look at their job listings, every single position is open.

I don’t want to see my local mountain fail, but I think it’s too late for that. I hope COVID bankrupts Vail and they have to sell some of these mountains back to local owners. It’s become very clear now that Vail doesn’t give a shit about pass holders, the mountains and their local style, or their employees (I knew that already), and the only recourse is to boycott an Epic pass. Next year I’ll be only riding non-corporate resorts and buying a pass at a smaller mountain.

 

[Young_patty]

I remember hearing on the Powell movement that building a super pipe could cost upward of 100k in snow, fuel, paychecks and equipment so makes sense many hills are scaling back on building huge parks. Just the end of another era I suppose

 

[TOAST.]

I remember hearing on the Powell movement that building a super pipe could cost upward of 100k in snow, fuel, paychecks and equipment so makes sense many hills are scaling back on building huge parks. Just the end of another era I suppose

To bad they are scaling back more than just huge parks.

 

[b0ss]

I can confirm vail is building knuckles where the park usualy is. Dont get your hopes up until january.

 

[eheath]

I remember hearing on the Powell movement that building a super pipe could cost upward of 100k in snow, fuel, paychecks and equipment so makes sense many hills are scaling back on building huge parks. Just the end of another era I suppose

I'd say that's conservative, the snow alone (snowmaking, water, power, etc) costs 100k, another 150k in labor costs at least, a superpipe is minimum 250k, the xgames pipe costs 2-3 times that (labor not snow, SPT ain't cheap).

 

[eheath]

I don’t want to see my local mountain fail, but I think it’s too late for that. I hope COVID bankrupts Vail and they have to sell some of these mountains back to local owners. It’s become very clear now that Vail doesn’t give a shit about pass holders, the mountains and their local style, or their employees (I knew that already), and the only recourse is to boycott an Epic pass. Next year I’ll be only riding non-corporate resorts and buying a pass at a smaller mountain.

You're naive if you think that Vail is going to sell any resorts, their product is the epic pass and the plethora of resorts, Mt. Snow is a pretty popular resort, no?

 

[swagmasterflex]

Simple formula

Shareholders don't see the value (immediate profit) in them so the parent company asks individual resorts to decrease the budget. Resort management (old people) don't care for parks one way or the other so they cut budgets until the staff are forced to do the bare minimum. Staff then leaves and is replaced with ambitious crew that bangs there head into the wall for a few seasons before giving up or yes men who are content with not pushing the envelope.

I say we all spend our next paycheck on as many vail resorts shares we can possibly buy, demand change, and have our parks back

 

[katrina]

I'd say that's conservative, the snow alone (snowmaking, water, power, etc) costs 100k, another 150k in labor costs at least, a superpipe is minimum 250k, the xgames pipe costs 2-3 times that (labor not snow, SPT ain't cheap).

Liability insurance too

 

[SlitherySnake]

reading this im glad my resort is a nonprofit and is owned by the state. Also helps that its not a huge resort, but its big enough to get some pretty sick setups sometimes

 

[sqeellicbic]

If you can’t see what’s happening at Mount Snow via Vail, you haven’t been there long enough or haven’t been paying attention. I’ve been riding there for 20 years, I’m fucking old now.

Mount Snow has built its modern reputation on having the best park in the NE starting in 2001 when they hosted the X Games. While they’ve had up and downs they’ve constantly competed for that title, and since Carintha had the whole peak it had been undeniable, the old lodge was also an insane park kids dream. PS4s and Xbox’s with couches in the lodge, a mini ramp on the deck.

In past years Mount Snow would open 1 park in Carinthia and not open the summit lift on the main face initially, then they would work on connecting the two. This year they opened the Northface peak and summit lift, the main face trails and summit lift, but no Carinthia. Vail is operating all of these resorts they bought as if they’re out west and they’re not, Vail does not understand the East Coast skier mentality.

It’s absolutely Vail and corporate. They absolutely fired a lot of core employees, and now can’t hire anyone. If you need proof go look at their job listings, every single position is open.

I don’t want to see my local mountain fail, but I think it’s too late for that. I hope COVID bankrupts Vail and they have to sell some of these mountains back to local owners. It’s become very clear now that Vail doesn’t give a shit about pass holders, the mountains and their local style, or their employees (I knew that already), and the only recourse is to boycott an Epic pass. Next year I’ll be only riding non-corporate resorts and buying a pass at a smaller mountain.

I get where you're coming from and I'm definitely worried that vail will fuck up mt snow but I think it's a little too early to tell right now. Yeah carinthia isn't open yet but that's because we've had very high temps recently. I can't speak on the laying off employees cause I don't know any thing about it. Did they lay off a bunch of park crew or just normal employees?

Also I heard that gulch is opening on wednesday but that might just be a rumor. Carinthia might or might not go to shit but it's too early to make that claim right now imo

 

[thatsG]

Funny how this became an olympic sport and vail resorts abandoned it

 

[scratchskier321]

Beaver creek parks are dying hard. Im glad i saw that when i worked there in 2014 and ran the fuck away. Wishes i hadn't even done that season honestly. Cool mtn though. After getting there wasn't surprised why i had gotten a call back so quickly. In december when i decided to gtfo of ny kinda had to take it a jerb when offered. Got some other hits after i had locked in to bc.

They had some pretty cool features and rodeo was still worth lapping but now that most of their parks are gone whsts the point.

its sad. the parks in BC were fucking amazing for awhile.

 

[katrina]

Funny how this became an olympic sport and vail resorts abandoned it

Isn't that what happens to most olympic sports?

 

[SlitherySnake]

man it would just be sick if some like ski shop or something would buy a piece of land and just have a rail jam set up. no corporate politics, no worrying about the real estate value of condos, just some raw ski amazingness for people to enjoy. I would gladly buy a second season pass to that along with my local mountain's pass

 

[SlitherySnake]

man it would just be sick if some like ski shop or something would buy a piece of land and just have a rail jam set up. no corporate politics, no worrying about the real estate value of condos, just some raw ski amazingness for people to enjoy. I would gladly buy a second season pass to that along with my local mountain's pass

although I realize that it's a little far fetched that it would ever happen.but who knows, maybe when I get some $$ in the bank I could bring it to life?

 

[dant02]

Darkside snowboards has exactly that. A hike park behind the shop and they host annual rail jams. Would be pretty cool if a ski shop did that though