Gun Control

[JAHBRADOR]

Just saw that there was a mass shooting in Arizona. Seems like the media doesn’t report on these events like they used to.

Trudeau just recently banned all automatic weapons after Canada’s deadliest mass shooting in its history.

Evidence that strict gun laws reduce gun related violence :

https://cdn1.sph.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/1264/2012/10/bulletins_australia_spring_2011.pdf

The argument:

A ban on automatic weapons and strict licensing on all other guns drastically reduces gun violence and mass shooting incidents.

 

[little1337]

I say ban em. it's unfortunate that a few bad people have ruined rifles for the vast majority of gun users, but when this many people are dying from gun violence every year, it goes beyond recreation and becomes a public health problem. I totally understand the draw to guns and the whole 2nd amendment argument, but it's gone too far. No action on it is an action to let it keep happening.

**This post was edited on May 22nd 2020 at 8:16:43am

 

[iFlip]

Which other part of the Constitution would you like to tear up while you're at it? Perhaps Free Speech?

 

[270on420out]

I’m pretty sure automatic weapons have been banned since the 80s.

 

[Charlie_Kelly]

Automatic weapons are illegal for citizens to own in the US, been that way for some time. Banning guns outright is a terrible idea. You know what city has the strictest gun laws? Chicago. You know what city has the most gun related violence? Chicago.

Personally I think we should have less restrictions on what types of guns you can own but a more rigorous process to obtain them. Switzerland has a pretty good system IMO.

**This post was edited on May 22nd 2020 at 9:11:03am

**This post was edited on May 22nd 2020 at 9:11:25am

 

[little1337]

I say ban em. it's unfortunate that a few bad people have ruined rifles for the vast majority of gun users, but when this many people are dying from gun violence every year, it goes beyond recreation and becomes a public health problem. I totally understand the draw to guns and the whole 2nd amendment argument, but it's gone too far. No action on it is an action to let it keep happening.

**This post was edited on May 22nd 2020 at 8:16:43am

 

[r00kie]

Canada banned "assult style weapons." That turned out to be a very broad term as Trudeau went and banned 1,500 models of firearm.
https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/read-the-full-list-of-military-style-guns-now-banned-in-canada

Imo guns are only "assult weapons" if they are used by someone to harm a fellow person.

 

[JAHpow]

Just saw that there was a mass shooting in Arizona. Seems like the media doesn’t report on these events like they used to.

Yes, let's ignore the fact that the dude was mad against society because he was bullied. Can we start by maybe trying to find a solution to what's wrong with how we treat others and psychological issues before we start removing freedoms?

Or should we continue ignoring that?

 

[JAHBRADOR]

Which other part of the Constitution would you like to tear up while you're at it? Perhaps Free Speech?

America: we are the greatest country on earth!

Also America: Our gun rights are based around a 250 year old law written with a feather when guns took 2 full minutes to reload a single shot.

 

[JAHBRADOR]

Yes, let's ignore the fact that the dude was mad against society because he was bullied. Can we start by maybe trying to find a solution to what's wrong with how we treat others and psychological issues before we start removing freedoms?

Or should we continue ignoring that?

But my point is, anyone that should be allowed to own a gun, can still own a gun. The screening/training process may take a few months but everyone that wants to own a gun can have one.

Do you think people that have severe mental illnesses that may harm themselves or others should be the owner of a gun?

I agree that the societal issues surrounding treatment of others is the problem but I think it’s idealistic to think that anything will drastically change on that front. There will always be bullying and people that are abused.

 

[SnowshoeThompson]

That’s like saying we should make cocaine illegal so nobody uses it...oh wait.

Public shootings are horrible. More government regulation is rarely ever the answer though. Go after the people breaking the law and are actually bringing the guns in to the picture ie. Illegal street dealers or cartels.

People that are fucked up enough to start shooting at unarmed civilians with a registered fire arm would more than likely go through a third party dealer if there was such a ban. Makes no sense to completely outlaw something that most law abiding citizens can manage properly. You’re wiping out an entire industry in doing so as well.

 

[JAHBRADOR]

That’s like saying we should make cocaine illegal so nobody uses it...oh wait.

Public shootings are horrible. More government regulation is rarely ever the answer though. Go after the people breaking the law and are actually bringing the guns in to the picture ie. Illegal street dealers or cartels.

People that are fucked up enough to start shooting at unarmed civilians with a registered fire arm would more than likely go through a third party dealer if there was such a ban. Makes no sense to completely outlaw something that most law abiding citizens can manage properly. You’re wiping out an entire industry in doing so as well.

Stricter gun control =/= completely outlawing something.

Most of these mass shooting have been carried out with legally purchased firearms from states with lax gun control.

I highly doubt a loner with no friends is going to be able to hit up his local Cartel for an AK.

 

[Charlie_Kelly]

America: we are the greatest country on earth!

Also America: Our gun rights are based around a 250 year old law written with a feather when guns took 2 full minutes to reload a single shot.

There were machine guns back then.

I also think you missed the point of the second amendment, it’s not so people can have guns, it’s so people can defend themselves against a tyrannous government. Pretty easy to subdue a populace when they can’t fight back.

 

[MiIfHunter]

The 2nd amendment is pure bullshit. Fuck the constitution that shit is dumb. Ppl that still believe in that shit is like thinking the Easter dummy is real

There were machine guns back then.

I also think you missed the point of the second amendment, it’s not so people can have guns, it’s so people can defend themselves against a tyrannous government. Pretty easy to subdue a populace when they can’t fight back.

 

[r00kie]

There were machine guns back then.

I also think you missed the point of the second amendment, it’s not so people can have guns, it’s so people can defend themselves against a tyrannous government. Pretty easy to subdue a populace when they can’t fight back.

Also protection from other people and foreign armies. Rarely hear anyone mention how much having armed citizens contributes to homeland security. Can you imagine if a foreign army showed up on our shores? They would not get far.

 

[MiIfHunter]

Dude that shit is old.

u honestly think an army is gonna roll up like it’s d day?

we use nukes now

lets see how ur little guns will stand up to a nuke

Also protection from other people and foreign armies. Rarely hear anyone mention how much having armed citizens contributes to homeland security. Can you imagine if a foreign army showed up on our shores? They would not get far.

 

[Dustin.]

America: we are the greatest country on earth!

Also America: Our gun rights are based around a 250 year old law written with a feather when guns took 2 full minutes to reload a single shot.

Weapons that shot significantly more than 1 round existed in 1776. A less pointless example would be to compare the advancement of technology to the 1st Amendment (as the Supreme Court has many times over the years). Can the governemnt arrest you for speech because you posted on Facebook because it didn't exist in 1776? No.

You know what is interesting though? The only examples I have of that exact thing happening in the US are in relation to Red Flag laws being enacted for people who posted on Facebook and pissed off a Karen for saying they are pro 2A. These laws are very dangerous both physically and ideologically.

 

[Charlie_Kelly]

Also protection from other people and foreign armies. Rarely hear anyone mention how much having armed citizens contributes to homeland security. Can you imagine if a foreign army showed up on our shores? They would not get far.

Exactly, hence why I think there should be less restrictions on the types of firearms people can purchase.

 

[Dustin.]

But my point is, anyone that should be allowed to own a gun, can still own a gun. The screening/training process may take a few months but everyone that wants to own a gun can have one.

Do you think people that have severe mental illnesses that may harm themselves or others should be the owner of a gun?

I agree that the societal issues surrounding treatment of others is the problem but I think it’s idealistic to think that anything will drastically change on that front. There will always be bullying and people that are abused.

You are describing how background checks work dude, just go buy a gun and you'll see how these measures already exist. That's question 5 on a 4473 (federal background check, which although the media will lie and say has loopholes: doesn't. You cannot buy a gun without one even at a gun show). There are a shit load of credible studies out there diving into these issues and the problem that arises over and over is that only like 5% of guns used in crimes were legally obtained.

 

[r00kie]

Dude that shit is old.

u honestly think an army is gonna roll up like it’s d day?

we use nukes now

lets see how ur little guns will stand up to a nuke

Nukes haven't been used in war since 1945.

 

[JAHBRADOR]

There were machine guns back then.

I also think you missed the point of the second amendment, it’s not so people can have guns, it’s so people can defend themselves against a tyrannous government. Pretty easy to subdue a populace when they can’t fight back.

Think it’s niave to think that this is what it means in the 21st century.

The people are are not going to rise up and go to DC and murder everyone in the government if the government turns tyrannical.

I thought checks and balances were the way the government was kept in line not the threat of a gun toting civilians.

Its pretty clear that that the only reason that gun laws are so relaxed is because the government makes a buttload of money from it and are lobbied by organisations such as the NRA.

 

[Dustin.]

Dude that shit is old.

u honestly think an army is gonna roll up like it’s d day?

we use nukes now

lets see how ur little guns will stand up to a nuke

We don't "Use nukes now". Dude you are so far off it's astounding. There are hundreds of geopolitical facets that account for the nearly impenetrable US physical security, and nukes is not one of them....because you can't defend your own country if you nuke it....for one.

 

[MiIfHunter]

Ur thinking is old school. Guns r shit. They r old school technology.

We don't "Use nukes now". Dude you are so far off it's astounding. There are hundreds of geopolitical facets that account for the nearly impenetrable US physical security, and nukes is not one of them....because you can't defend your own country if you nuke it....for one.

 

[Bdoobz]

This can of worms again eh?

 

[JAHBRADOR]

You are describing how background checks work dude, just go buy a gun and you'll see how these measures already exist. That's question 5 on a 4473 (federal background check, which although the media will lie and say has loopholes: doesn't. You cannot buy a gun without one even at a gun show). There are a shit load of credible studies out there diving into these issues and the problem that arises over and over is that only like 5% of guns used in crimes were legally obtained.

Don’t think a background check covers mental state. Dylan Roof looked clean as a whistle on paper.

references from friends and family should be mandatory.

 

[freestyler540]

Im really happy that Canada banned assault rifles; we join Europe and New Zealand. This should have been done in 1989 after the Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal got attacked.

 

[r00kie]

Think it’s niave to think that this is what it means in the 21st century.

The people are are not going to rise up and go to DC and murder everyone in the government if the government turns tyrannical.

I thought checks and balances were the way the government was kept in line not the threat of a gun toting civilians.

Its pretty clear that that the only reason that gun laws are so relaxed is because the government makes a buttload of money from it and are lobbied by organisations such as the NRA.

The political ethics of lobbying can be questioned, but the NRA invests heavily in gun safety courses and clinics, helping to ensure that anyone with a firearm understands responsible ownership and handling of it. The safest gun is one owned and carried buy someone who understands the tool and is comfortable handling it.

 

[TheHamburglar]

But my point is, anyone that should be allowed to own a gun, can still own a gun. The screening/training process may take a few months but everyone that wants to own a gun can have one.

I think a few months is pretty long, but a month waiting period for first time gun buyers might be a good idea. Some required online safety and training courses might be good too. When I bought my first gun, they just ran the background check and then sold it to me. Didn't teach me how to clean it or give me any real instruction. I learned everything from NRA online courses, and that shit was really helpful regarding jams and misfires and whatnot, as well as range etiquette. First time gun owners should know basic gun safety, operation, and troubleshooting. And maybe a month waiting period to learn all that shit online. There's a lot of dumb mfers out there who I'd be scared of owning guns without some proper instruction.

But once you know your shit, and as long as you're in good standing with the law imo, then you should be allowed to splooge on drum mags and suppressors and belt feds all day long

 

[Dustin.]

And finally, I'll be the dude who says this even though objectivity and fact is demonized in 2020:

This was not a "mass shooting". Credible studies use 3-4 deaths typically, media likes to label them all the same. I think the term we are searching for is more along the lines of "indiscriminate public attack" like when people use trucks in France and Europe or guns in the US to kill for no reason. The effect is the same on how the public views their safety regardless of the cost in injuries or deaths. I still don't know how to solve it though, when I lived in Europe the weapon of choice was bombs and vehicles. Here it's guns. The common denominator is that for some reason these people decided they wanted to kill as many people as possible, or in the case of this Arizona one 15 minutes from my house, to get famous.

 

[JAHpow]

But my point is, anyone that should be allowed to own a gun, can still own a gun. The screening/training process may take a few months but everyone that wants to own a gun can have one.

Do you think people that have severe mental illnesses that may harm themselves or others should be the owner of a gun?

I agree that the societal issues surrounding treatment of others is the problem but I think it’s idealistic to think that anything will drastically change on that front. There will always be bullying and people that are abused.

I'm not going to get into a debate on here. I've done this countless times before. Nobody changes their mind.

With that being said, I 100% think people should be trained to use a firearm. I think a hunter safety course is the best way to do that. It teaches both how to safely handle a firearm and the ethics behind hunting (which can be attributed the practice of ethics in general). I don't see how making "screening" take months long would make much of any difference. Wait laws are already in place in throughout the country.

Your point about mental health- no, I think if I absolutely had to pick a side I would be against a severely mental ill person having a firearm. But nobody approaches that issue in legislation in the first place. Much less, and to address your final point, actually trying to fix this mental health crisis we're in. It doesn't make any decision makers money to try to combat mental health. Which is so utterly sad. My main point is that I want to fix the source of the problem- mental health. Not remove or restrict the freedoms of those who are law-abiding.

That's all I'm saying in this thread. Goodbye.

 

[Charlie_Kelly]

Think it’s niave to think that this is what it means in the 21st century.

The people are are not going to rise up and go to DC and murder everyone in the government if the government turns tyrannical.

I thought checks and balances were the way the government was kept in line not the threat of a gun toting civilians.

Its pretty clear that that the only reason that gun laws are so relaxed is because the government makes a buttload of money from it and are lobbied by organisations such as the NRA.

How is that naive at all? I’d say it’s far more naive to think more gun control is going to solve the problem.

What happens when checks and balances fail? What then? What happens if a charismatic leader comes along, playing off the emotions of a country on the brink of turmoil, and uses the people to undermine the established government? I can think of a few times in history where thats happened and it’s never ended well. It was also made easier for the shift in power once the populace was disarmed.

The point that I’m trying to make painfully clear is that our government in its infantile stages knew the dangers of a disarmed populace and took actions to make sure it never happened.

I also don’t want someone whose never owned or operated a firearm telling me how I can defend my family and loved ones. Such a disconnect from the people pushing the legislature and the people that legislature will directly effect.

**This post was edited on May 22nd 2020 at 12:00:37pm

 

[ScaryDumpTruck]

Im really happy that Canada banned assault rifles; we join Europe and New Zealand. This should have been done in 1989 after the Ecole Polytechnique de Montreal got attacked.

Because once you ban assault rifles you cant buy them illegally anymore...o wait

 

[JAHBRADOR]

Also protection from other people and foreign armies. Rarely hear anyone mention how much having armed citizens contributes to homeland security. Can you imagine if a foreign army showed up on our shores? They would not get far.

Haha you really think this is going to happen? Masses of untrained civilians fighting off an organized foreign army. You don’t have to be a genius to figure what that means for all the unarmed civilians. What is the reason you guys Have the largest military budget in the world ($730bn) ? China is in 2nd place with $230bn, Iran $17bn, I don’t see the threat.

 

[Bdoobz]

There's a lot of fragile narratives in here on both sides.

Fact of the matter is people will interpret things and arrange them to fit their personal ideals.

 

[MiIfHunter]

The kids a fucking idiot

Haha you really think this is going to happen? Masses of untrained civilians fighting off an organized foreign army. You don’t have to be a genius to figure what that means for all the unarmed civilians. What is the reason you guys Have the largest military budget in the world ($730bn) ? China is in 2nd place with $230bn, Iran $17bn, I don’t see the threat.

 

[Dustin.]

Don’t think a background check covers mental state. Dylan Roof looked clean as a whistle on paper.

references from friends and family should be mandatory.

It explicitly asks and then verifies whether you have been adjudicated for a mental defect or committed to a mental institution via the FBI database. The problem with this is that people fervently fight for the rights of the patient to the point where their own family often has no legal ability to have them committed.

 

[Dustin.]

Haha you really think this is going to happen? Masses of untrained civilians fighting off an organized foreign army. You don’t have to be a genius to figure what that means for all the unarmed civilians. What is the reason you guys Have the largest military budget in the world ($730bn) ? China is in 2nd place with $230bn, Iran $17bn, I don’t see the threat.

Ya I can't think of any time in American history that's ever happened....dude you can't be serious.

 

[Dustin.]

It explicitly asks and then verifies whether you have been adjudicated for a mental defect or committed to a mental institution via the FBI database. The problem with this is that people fervently fight for the rights of the patient to the point where their own family often has no legal ability to have them committed.

I guess to kind of get to the point on mental health, the problem and division stems from this:

-There are usually about 40,000 gun related crimes in the US each year.

-About 30,000 of them are typically suicides

-About 40 of them are typically done with rifles

-Lawmakers focus is shockingly slanted towards the AR-15 and ignores the gigantic 30,000 number and it's beyond confusing for legal gun owners who largely use their firearms for sport, hunting, and home defense.

That and the mass of just blatantly false statements in the news ("This machine gun can shoot 300 rounds a second" while holding a semiautomatic hunting rifle that happens to be black and look "tactical") is why I get frustrated with it.

 

[r00kie]

Haha you really think this is going to happen? Masses of untrained civilians fighting off an organized foreign army. You don’t have to be a genius to figure what that means for all the unarmed civilians. What is the reason you guys Have the largest military budget in the world ($730bn) ? China is in 2nd place with $230bn, Iran $17bn, I don’t see the threat.

Yes, that is exactly what I think would happen. This country has 11.5 million hunters and just the state of Texas has 725,000 registered firearms.

https://www.doi.gov/pressreleases/new-5-year-report-shows-1016-million-americans-participated-hunting-fishing-wildlife

https://www.statista.com/statistics/215655/number-of-registered-weapons-in-the-us-by-state/

Why did the US struggle in Vietnam? Cause the citizens were also dangerous.

 

[Dustin.]

What is the reason you guys Have the largest military budget in the world ($730bn) ? China is in 2nd place with $230bn, Iran $17bn, I don’t see the threat.

The reason is because post WWII, we established Bretton Woods which guaranteed global free trade while asking nothing in return. The US was capable of doing this as it had the last remaining Navy on Earth worth talking about, and though they could have and were expected to charge for this service and exclude their enemies, they didn't. Maintaining this system is unbelievably expensive, especially when you are literally expected to protect entire other continents and major trade routes. However free trade has proven incredibly profitable and has established the US as a modern empire based on both influence and wealth.

So that's why our defense budget is so big. I suspect it will shrink relative to GDP as Bretton Woods comes to a close, trade with Europe becomes less profitable and necessary, and countries like Russia and China collapse from the inside. Funny enough, we take a lot of shit from NATO for trying to shrink our budget because it effectively places the responsibility of defense from very real threats to mainland Europe on...European nations.

But anyway, you asked.

 

[Charlie_Kelly]

Haha you really think this is going to happen? Masses of untrained civilians fighting off an organized foreign army. You don’t have to be a genius to figure what that means for all the unarmed civilians. What is the reason you guys Have the largest military budget in the world ($730bn) ? China is in 2nd place with $230bn, Iran $17bn, I don’t see the threat.

You’re right, guerilla warfare has never worked...ever...

 

[Dustin.]

Yes, that is exactly what I think would happen. This country has 11.5 million hunters and just the state of Texas has 725,000 registered firearms.

https://www.doi.gov/pressreleases/new-5-year-report-shows-1016-million-americans-participated-hunting-fishing-wildlife

https://www.statista.com/statistics/215655/number-of-registered-weapons-in-the-us-by-state/

Why did the US struggle in Vietnam? Cause the citizens were also dangerous.

The obvious example I would have used was:

"Why was Britain unable to control the American colonies even though it was the most powerful military force on planet Earth?"

 

[r00kie]

The obvious example I would have used was:

"Why was Britain unable to control the American colonies even though it was the most powerful military force on planet Earth?"

That works.

 

[freestyler540]

Because once you ban assault rifles you cant buy them illegally anymore...o wait

So doing nothing will make things better? We tried that, it did not work. Europe, UK and New Zealand managed to successfully implant the piece of legislature.

They come from the US illegally. Now RCMP and city police forces can now have more funding to tackle the problem. Soon, a possession will carry a felony charge. Now police have tools to track smugglers and criminal organisation.

Once these weapons become rare, the costs of them will be too much for most and interest in them will be reduced. Will it stop "bad guys"? No, they will still act like animals, but the weapon involved in the next crimes will be blades or less lethal firearms. Bystanders casualties will be reduced, saving families from tragedy.

Ammunition price will jump on the black market. Bullets will be too expensive to use too. So, they cant practice as much and will have to be more careful on not wasting the rounds.

Use economics against crime, not blunt force.

 

[MiIfHunter]

this thread has AIDS

 

[JAHBRADOR]

I'm not going to get into a debate on here. I've done this countless times before. Nobody changes their mind.

With that being said, I 100% think people should be trained to use a firearm. I think a hunter safety course is the best way to do that. It teaches both how to safely handle a firearm and the ethics behind hunting (which can be attributed the practice of ethics in general). I don't see how making "screening" take months long would make much of any difference. Wait laws are already in place in throughout the country.

Your point about mental health- no, I think if I absolutely had to pick a side I would be against a severely mental ill person having a firearm. But nobody approaches that issue in legislation in the first place. Much less, and to address your final point, actually trying to fix this mental health crisis we're in. It doesn't make any decision makers money to try to combat mental health. Which is so utterly sad. My main point is that I want to fix the source of the problem- mental health. Not remove or restrict the freedoms of those who are law-abiding.

That's all I'm saying in this thread. Goodbye.

I think the point of debate has been misconstrued as it is not so much about some people being ‘right or wrong’ or ‘winning or losing’. I think it’s a good way to see other people’s point of view. Yes, I may believe what I believe but at the same time I find it interesting to hear why other people feel the way that they do, even if I don’t agree with them.

I also think it’s good way to fact check as I said ‘ most mass shootings use legal firearms.’ And ( can’t remeber who said it, sorry ) somebody corrected me by saying that it is a very small number. When I looked into it further, it’s actually true and I was wrong. There is so much information out there nowadays unfortunately, no matter how diligent you are, shitty facts can plant themselves in your brain unconsciously.

My point is, debate is a good practice and I think in our current culture of ‘you are either for or against’ is detrimental to the advancement of society as a whole. Someone that has an opposing view is seen as ‘beef’ instead of being a way to have an interesting chat about something that interests both parties.

It is important to know the opposing view as much as it is your own.

 

[MiIfHunter]

Fuck u redneck hick Trump supporters

 

[r00kie]

Fuck u redneck hick Trump supporters

I know plenty of gun owners who are not Trump fans, myself included. Stop pushing that generalized partisan bullshit.

 

[Dustin.]

Fuck u redneck hick Trump supporters

Oh hateful comment without provocation, you must be on the side trying to quell violence.

 

[Dustin.]

I think the point of debate has been misconstrued as it is not so much about some people being ‘right or wrong’ or ‘winning or losing’. I think it’s a good way to see other people’s point of view. Yes, I may believe what I believe but at the same time I find it interesting to hear why other people feel the way that they do, even if I don’t agree with them.

I also think it’s good way to fact check as I said ‘ most mass shootings use legal firearms.’ And ( can’t remeber who said it, sorry ) somebody corrected me by saying that it is a very small number. When I looked into it further, it’s actually true and I was wrong. There is so much information out there nowadays unfortunately, no matter how diligent you are, shitty facts can plant themselves in your brain unconsciously.

My point is, debate is a good practice and I think in our current culture of ‘you are either for or against’ is detrimental to the advancement of society as a whole. Someone that has an opposing view is seen as ‘beef’ instead of being a way to have an interesting chat about something that interests both parties.

It is important to know the opposing view as much as it is your own.

I 100% agree, I wasn't trying to shut you down at all because crushing violence is important. My concise response is that we need to focus on the facts, and media has been extremely irresponsible with this part of the conversation which creates unproductive debate in folks that simply don't know.

Whenever I try to sort this subject out, we typically find a frustrating dead end related to mental health. I have never come up with a solution to that issue and know very little about it.

 

[Charlie_Kelly]

I know plenty of gun owners who are not Trump fans, myself included. Stop pushing that generalized partisan bullshit.

Oh hateful comment without provocation, you must be on the side trying to quell violence.

Stop feeding the troll