From purely a legal and financial perspective

[BrightFrog]

ski patrollers make the mountain safer. Like… a lot. BUT, I do not believe the park city patrollers have a leg to stand on. I’ve been reading a lot into this and vail is looking to set precedent here, and they hold the cards. Yes, the ski industry is understaffed, but working at a ski resort is a rich kids game, and from vails perspective, why should it change? Plenty of companies rely on churning and underpaying lost college hires, especially in finance, so why does Vail of all places need to provide long term careers?

I don’t think PC would close due to a strike. Your epic pass contract is robust and if you die on the hill, welcome to Europe. It’s your call, make the decision not to ski if it’s not safe, I think Vail will survive.

let me reiterate that I don’t like the situation, and patrollers should strike or quit if they think it’s a good move. I do believe that Vail can operate without patrol a lot better than you think they can. They are in the business of getting you into hotels and restaurants, not providing you with your favorite double black chute open. They are more than happy to shit down runs, you already booked your flights (and 95% of you would do so next year)

 

[pofwel]

ski patrollers make the mountain safer. Like… a lot. BUT, I do not believe the park city patrollers have a leg to stand on. I’ve been reading a lot into this and vail is looking to set precedent here, and they hold the cards. Yes, the ski industry is understaffed, but working at a ski resort is a rich kids game, and from vails perspective, why should it change? Plenty of companies rely on churning and underpaying lost college hires, especially in finance, so why does Vail of all places need to provide long term careers?

I don’t think PC would close due to a strike. Your epic pass contract is robust and if you die on the hill, welcome to Europe. It’s your call, make the decision not to ski if it’s not safe, I think Vail will survive.

let me reiterate that I don’t like the situation, and patrollers should strike or quit if they think it’s a good move. I do believe that Vail can operate without patrol a lot better than you think they can. They are in the business of getting you into hotels and restaurants, not providing you with your favorite double black chute open. They are more than happy to shit down runs, you already booked your flights (and 95% of you would do so next year)

i feel like the only problem is all the people who catch an edge and break their knee and stuff that you witness everyday, it would just be a mess without them and probably a liability

 

[Funnel]

Assumption of risk does not mean Vail no longer has a duty to protect patrons.

 

[AndrewGravesSV]

I think you're really devaluing ski patrollers' craft. They function as emts on mountain with the skill set to get to you wherever and whatever situation. They're skilled workers and deserve compensation for those skills and knowledge. Are you really looking for a future where the only ski patrollers can be rich trust funders or no ski patrol at all? This isn't Europe and you can get sued if you try to help anyone injured. It'd be pretty shitty optics to try and run your flagship ski mountain without a ski patrol so the patrollers do have some leverage here imo

idk what you're getting out of this besides licking tasty vail boots but go off

 

[CammyP]

I'm sure it also doesn't look good to whatever insurance Vail has to operate without patrol.

 

[eheath]

You're fucking stupid /thread.

 

[Young_patty]

You're fucking stupid /thread.

Fax, OP’s never been carried off the hill or skied avalanche terrain before. You literally could not have a resort function safely without patrollers- and that’s just a fact.

If ski patrollers did strike we would be totally fucked. Imagine wrapping your leg around a tree and knowing no professional help is coming as the sun keeps getting lower and lower…

 

[hoodratz47]

No patrolling. No inbound skiing

 

[ZappaStache]

Damn b, why you throating Rob Katz?

No patrol = no skiing. People who keep others safe at the expense of their own bodies deserve more than $15 an hour. Patrolling is a lot different from the other seasonal positions ski areas have, you can’t build a good patrol with a bunch of rookies every year.

**This post was edited on Jan 4th 2022 at 3:53:44pm

 

[BrightFrog]

I was hoping for an actuary to chime in and answer with some educated opinion but instead I got the NS windowlickers that will say whatever SLC meme accounts tell them to.

 

[bakemaster]

I was hoping for an actuary to chime in and answer with some educated opinion but instead I got the NS windowlickers that will say whatever SLC meme accounts tell them to.

Bruh you support vail...

 

[@LANTASKI]

I agree with OP. No one is forcing the Ski Patrollers to work. They can go learn to code or find another craft in our great economy.

Vail will probably hire a bunch of j1 patrollers from Portillo and Bariolche who will gladly work for $12/hr in their offseason

Not that I care, I ski LCC

 

[Lonely]

What's your opinion on skiing at MTU?

 

[Lonely]

Also, ski patrollers are pretty cool. Most of them at least

 

[eheath]

Not that I care, I ski LCC

This problem stems across the entire industry, not just resorts you think are less dangerous, PC is just as dangerous as any other resort and requires qualified ski patrol as well.

 

[AndrewGravesSV]

I agree with OP. No one is forcing the Ski Patrollers to work. They can go learn to code or find another craft in our great economy.

Vail will probably hire a bunch of j1 patrollers from Portillo and Bariolche who will gladly work for $12/hr in their offseason

Not that I care, I ski LCC

 

[yungspliffy]

Uhh, first of all, if OP is suggesting any mountain can actually operate without ski patrol - even for a day - you're nuts. But I do agree on the fact that most people who work at a resort could find other work, especially with the current job market, but choose not to because there are obvious non-financial benefits to having that job. If you're truly unhappy, then go somewhere else that pays better, that's how capitalism works. With that being said, $13.25 starting pay is ludicrous unless you're at a little east coast/midwest hill or something. Asking for $15 is completely reasonable and FUCK Rob Katz

 

[drifts]

I think people are focusing on the wrong issue here, the entry level wage tracks with jobs that require similar skill sets that don’t have the perks of ski patrolling. The real issue to me is the people who have worked there for years with fuck all for a pay increase

 

[BrightFrog]

I think people are focusing on the wrong issue here, the entry level wage tracks with jobs that require similar skill sets that don’t have the perks of ski patrolling. The real issue to me is the people who have worked there for years with fuck all for a pay increase

Facts

 

[GayWolf420]

OP's mindset is eventually why all ski areas, due to litigation and legal issues, insurance, bullshit, etc. will all just be perfectly gladed blue and green groomers with everything wortwhile and "hazardous" roped off because we just lied down and let them have it. Enoughs enough, you'll be giving a shit when your ski pass purchase only lets you ski a fraction of what you used to be able to...."From a financial and legal perspective" of course.

 

[Gulo_gulo]

Churning and underpaying new hires is fine if the business doesn't care about building culture or retaining talent long enough for their increased experience to pay off. From a legal and financial perspective I think everyone wants experienced ski patrollers working as a team sledding them down the mountain after they blow their knee instead of some dweeb gap-year.

Also, I would love to see a resort operating without ski patrol. It would be awesome watching everyone who broke a leg flop around the hill while they try to drag themselves back to their car.

 

[ZappaStache]

I work in the industry and have for a long time. I’ve worked for ski resorts big and small, from small indys to VR and just about everything in between. I make a living in this world, not just look at memes about it. While I don’t do it any longer, I was a full time paid patroller at a large western resort for as long as I could financially make it work.

I might not have an educated opinion on much but I do know the in’s and out’s of this world, definitely more than most.

In order to have a safe patrol you need people who have spent their careers learning the snowpack and terrain at their specific ski area for mitigation. You need people with strong medical skills when shit hits the fan. It usually takes at least 3 years to get someone to the level of proficiency that management and the public expects all patrollers to be at. These are professionals, it’s time for them to get paid like it.

I was hoping for an actuary to chime in and answer with some educated opinion but instead I got the NS windowlickers that will say whatever SLC meme accounts tell them to.

 

[Icant_kfed]

Uhh, first of all, if OP is suggesting any mountain can actually operate without ski patrol - even for a day - you're nuts. But I do agree on the fact that most people who work at a resort could find other work, especially with the current job market, but choose not to because there are obvious non-financial benefits to having that job. If you're truly unhappy, then go somewhere else that pays better, that's how capitalism works. With that being said, $13.25 starting pay is ludicrous unless you're at a little east coast/midwest hill or something. Asking for $15 is completely reasonable and FUCK Rob Katz

Fuck Katz, all the homies who can’t afford a 180$ lift ticket hate Katz

 

[IsaacNW82]

This problem stems across the entire industry, not just resorts you think are less dangerous, PC is just as dangerous as any other resort and requires qualified ski patrol as well.

Ehhhhh I kinda half agree. Yes, the role of on-snow EMT is crucial everywhere, but avalanche incidents vary remarkably resort to resort. Resorts are relatively equally dangerous largely bc all the AIARE level 2/3 ski patrollers are really good at their jobs. LCC is the birthplace of American avy mitigation for a reason, the town of Alta kept getting destroyed.

PC could reasonably open a fair amount of its lifts/runs with much lower (but still non-zero) avy risk:



Versus Taos for example cannot safely open really anything without avalanche professionals, as every lift is either in or under a probable slide path:

 

[eheath]

Ehhhhh I kinda half agree. Yes, the role of on-snow EMT is crucial everywhere, but avalanche incidents vary remarkably resort to resort. Resorts are relatively equally dangerous largely bc all the AIARE level 2/3 ski patrollers are really good at their jobs. LCC is the birthplace of American avy mitigation for a reason, the town of Alta kept getting destroyed.

PC could reasonably open a fair amount of its lifts/runs with much lower (but still non-zero) avy risk:

View attachment 1025402

Versus Taos for example cannot safely open really anything without avalanche professionals, as every lift is either in or under a probable slide path:

View attachment 1025404

My point wasnt tryin to say PC is gnarly or insane, its not but its still has very dangerous areas that need top tier patrollers to do avy control.

That being said, PC surely has more use for patrollers on groomers and non-avy areas because its an extremely popular resort with lots of inexperienced skiers, but that is still very important.

The point is that ski patrollers are very important and anyone who says otherwise is a fucking idiot.

 

[r00kie]

Thats a lot of words for OP to say he has no idea what he is talking about.

 

[IsaacNW82]

My point wasnt tryin to say PC is gnarly or insane, its not but its still has very dangerous areas that need top tier patrollers to do avy control.

That being said, PC surely has more use for patrollers on groomers and non-avy areas because its an extremely popular resort with lots of inexperienced skiers, but that is still very important.

The point is that ski patrollers are very important and anyone who says otherwise is a fucking idiot.

Point taken, there are some zones they just couldn't open period without an avy professional. I guess what I was trying to say is is any resort operating w/o ski patrol would be a massive liability-ridden shitshow, but some of the avy prone ones would be really above and beyond on the estimated annual death toll.

 

[WoFIowz]

I know most people have said it already but avys aren't the only liability. You think safety (the yellow jackets) patrol volunteers are enough to keep people in check? Accidents will still happen even if they restrict skiing to groomed greens and blues. If you can sue a resort for not telling you a jump is dangerous then you can certainly sue a resort for subpar (or non-existent) emergency response. You think the government wants a Sar team called for every skiing injury? Fuck no. Nothing like breaking your femur or pelvis and bleeding out on the hill cuz your buddy doesn't know how to transport you in a stable manner and your bone ends up severing an artery. Fun stuff. You think they're paying doctors at ski resorts minimum wage? Doubt it. They're probably paying a fucking premium if they even have them.

Ski patrollers require multiple skill sets that your average layperson doesn't possess. Apparently PC patrol asked for $16.70 starting which was turned down and counteroffered with $15. Lmao $16.70 translates to $34,736 before taxes. Omg even that is low imo. For a small resort with no avy danger and a vert of 700ft sure $15 is probably fine and people will probably just volunteer or do on their spare time for extra cash and free skiing. At a big western resort where they do all sorts of shit including but not limited to being able to ski everything, avy work with bombs that kill you, marking volcanic vents that kill you, rappelling, search and rescue, cpr while sledding down a fucking mountain, and stabilization and transporting your sorry ass, anything less than $25/hr is an insult. Especially when you think about profit margins and that you could be flipping burgers high as balls in the cafeteria for $1 less.

Maybe the resorts are comparing ski patrol salaries to ems. If that's the case then they're comparable but honestly ems first responders are woefully underpaid. They have no leverage unless they want to cause patient harm by striking so they continue to sit at low wages. Shit even the people taking vitals, answering phones, and bringing you a sandwich in the ER make more than most ems.

 

[Whackson]

With that being said, $13.25 starting pay is ludicrous unless you're at a little east coast/midwest hill or something.

The majority of small hills on the east coast don't even pay they have volunteer ski patrol