Executive Branch consolidation of power: Are we moving towards authoritarianism? Discuss.

pmw

Active member
When I read about the incredibly active first week of the Trump administration, I struggle with two competing narratives about what’s really going on. The first story is simple: the administration is just doing what it said it would do, literally keeping its campaign promises. Lots of people won’t agree, but it’s playing to its base. They’re also not really good at this whole government thing yet, so implementation is shaky. The second is more sinister: the administration is deliberately testing the limits of governmental checks and balances to set up a self-serving, dangerous consolidation of power.

A legitimate argument can be made for the former: a relatively extreme and inexperienced administration was just put in place, and they haven’t yet figured out the nuances of government. But a few of the events in the past 72 hours —the intentional inclusion of green card holders in the immigration order, the DHS defiance of a federal judge, and the timing of Trump’s shakeup of the National Security Council — have pointed to a larger story. Even worse, if that larger story is true, if the source of this week’s actions is a play to consolidate power, it’s going really well so far. And that’s because mostly everyone — including those in protests shutting down airports over the weekend— are playing right into the administration’s hand.

I obviously can’t pretend to know the intentions of the new President, but let’s pretend the power consolidation move is what’s actually happening. In fact, let’s pretend we’re the Trump administration (not necessarily Trump himself, more likely his inner circle) for a second. Here’s our playbook:

We launch a series of Executive Orders in the first week. Beforehand, we identify one that our opponents will complain loudly about and will dominate the news cycle. Immigration ban. Perfect.

We craft the ban to be about 20% more extreme than we actually want it to be — say, let’s make the explicit decision to block green card holders from defined countries from entering the US, rather than just visa holders. We create some confusion so that we can walk back from that part later, but let’s make sure that it’s enforced to begin with.

We watch our opposition pour out into the streets protesting the extremes of our public measure, exactly as we intended. The protests dominate the news, but our base doesn’t watch CNN anyway. The ACLU will file motions to oppose the most extreme parts of our measure, that’s actually going to be useful too. We don’t actually care if we win, that’s why we made it more extreme than it needed to be. But in doing so, the lawsuit process will test the loyalty of those enforcing what we say.

While the nation’s attention is on our extreme EO, slip a few more nuanced moves through. For example, reconfigure the National Security Council so that it’s led by our inner circle. Or gut the State Department’s ability to resist more extreme moves. That will have massive benefits down the road — the NSC are the folks that authorize secret assassinations against enemies of the state, including American citizens. Almost nobody has time to analyze that move closely, and those that do can’t get coverage.

When the lawsuits filed by the ACLU inevitably succeed, stay silent. Don’t tell the DHS to abide by the what the federal judge says, see what they do on their own. If they capitulate to the courts, we know our power with the DHS is limited and we need to staff it with more loyal people. But if they continue enforcing our EO until we tell them not to, we know that we can completely ignore the judicial branch later on and the DHS will have our back.

Once the DHS has made their move, walk back from the 20% we didn’t want in the first place. Let the green card holders in, and pretend that’s what we meant all along. The protestors and the ACLU, both clamoring to display their efficacy, jump on the moment to declare a huge victory. The crowds dissipate, they have to go back to work.

When the dust settles, we have 100% of the Executive Order we originally wanted, we’ve tested the loyalty of a department we’ll need later on, we’ve proven we can ignore an entire branch of government, and we’ve slipped in some subtle moves that will make the next test even easier.

We’ve just tested the country’s willingness to capitulate to a fascist regime.

Assuming this narrative is true (again, I have no idea what the administration intends), the “resistance” is playing right into Trump’s playbook. The most vocal politicians could be seen at rallies, close to the headlines. The protests themselves did exactly what they were intended to: dominate the news cycle and channel opposition anger towards a relatively insignificant piece of the puzzle. I’m not saying that green card holders should be stuck in airports — far from it. I’m saying there might be a much larger picture here, and the immigration ban is a distraction.

So for those that believe that the power consolidation narrative is true and want to oppose it, how does that happen?

First, stop believing that protests alone do much good. Protests galvanize groups and display strong opposition, but they’re not sufficient. Not only are they relatively ineffective at changing policy, they’re also falsely cathartic to those protesting. Protestors get all kinds of feel-good that they’re among fellow believers and standing up for what’s right, and they go home feeling like they’ve done their part. Even if protestors gain mild, symbolic concessions, the fact that their anger has an outlet is useful to the other side. Do protest, but be very wary of going home feeling like you’ve done your job. You haven’t.

Second, pay journalists to watch for the head fake. That’s their job. Become a paying subscriber to news outlets, then actively ask them to more deeply cover moves like the NSC shakeup. We can no longer breathlessly focus media attention on easy stories like the immigration ban. The real story is much more nuanced and boring — until it’s not.

Third, popular attention must focus less on whether we agree with what the government is doing, and more on whether the system of checks and balances we have in place is working. It is a much bigger deal that the DHS felt they could ignore a federal court than that Trump signed an EO blocking green card holders in the first place. It is a much bigger deal that Trump removed a permanent military presence from the NSC than that he issued a temporary stay on immigration. The immigration ban may be more viscerally upsetting, but the other moves are potentially far more dangerous.

Once again, I’m desperately hoping that none of this narrative is actually true, and that we merely have a well-intentioned administration with some execution problems. I’m also hoping and praying that the structure of our democracy is resilient even to the most sophisticated attacks. I’m hoping that the better angels of our nature will prevail. But with each passing day, the evidence tilts more in the other direction.
 
You even suck at copy & pasting. Let's hope you're on the south side of the wall once it's fully built.
 
13783357:iFlip said:
You even suck at copy & pasting. Let's hope you're on the south side of the wall once it's fully built.

i understand you're supposed to play the loud mouthed antagonist, but can you please provide something with more substance? Type in all caps if it makes you feel better.
 
Tl;dr

Obama blamed Bush for everything that went wrong during his eight years so now I'm going to blame Obama for everything that happens in the next four to eight.

So OP, this is all Obama's fault.
 
13783376:JAHpow said:
Tl;dr

Obama blamed Bush for everything that went wrong during his eight years so now I'm going to blame Obama for everything that happens in the next four to eight.

So OP, this is all Obama's fault.

So let me get this straight, the US covertly/overtly funds extremist insurgencies and topples sovereign governments in middle eastern countries for decades to prop up puppet dictatorships, and now we're surprised by Anti-American backlash? And in the name of fighting this backlash we effectively destroy these countries and create a giant refugee crisis while refusing to resettle any of them? Oh and on top of all that the country actually funding and providing arms to radical Wahhabi-Islam across the region is our closest ally? Seems legit.

Remember, the Obama administration banned immigrants in Iraq for 6 months, where was the outlash then? I think this has to do with something much deeper. Propaganda isn't just about changing our minds anymore, it's about confusing us and making us so emotional it overrides our sense of logic, so our tribalism overrides our sense of compassion, which makes us easy to control.
 
Yeah don't under estimate the Trump Administration. He may be ignorant and inarticulate on policy issues but he is a cunning strategist. You gotta give him that.

The media is all bent out of shape about this claim that 3 to 5 million illegals voted in the election. Why is he saying this? They wonder out loud over and over. He is saying it to later back voter suppression efforts in the first midterm to attempt to keep the Congress beyond the first two years of his term. It's not that he is mentally ill or can't distinguish reality or any of the other crap the liberal media fills their broadcast with. There is an end game with everything he does.
 
13783357:iFlip said:
You even suck at copy & pasting. Let's hope you're on the south side of the wall once it's fully built.

You're stupid enough to believe a wall will actually come to fruition? FOH

I agree with OP, checks and balances are pretty much null at this point, and the sky is the limit for executive power. Where are all the Republicans who were bitching and moaning about Obama's EOs now?

I do not support Trump and his attempt at totalitarian rule, and I hope Trump's army of dickless followers realize he is not putting their interests first in the long run, or the interests of the greater good in general.
 
13783360:pmw said:
i understand you're supposed to play the loud mouthed antagonist, but can you please provide something with more substance? Type in all caps if it makes you feel better.

You're trying way too hard dude
 
13783474:Casey said:
Yeah don't under estimate the Trump Administration. He may be ignorant and inarticulate on policy issues but he is a cunning strategist. You gotta give him that.

The media is all bent out of shape about this claim that 3 to 5 million illegals voted in the election. Why is he saying this? They wonder out loud over and over. He is saying it to later back voter suppression efforts in the first midterm to attempt to keep the Congress beyond the first two years of his term. It's not that he is mentally ill or can't distinguish reality or any of the other crap the liberal media fills their broadcast with. There is an end game with everything he does.

TBH I think Bannon is running the show when it comes to these games.
 
13783484:TheHamburglar said:
You're stupid enough to believe a wall will actually come to fruition?

Are you stupid enough to believe it won't?

Before the end of the year, they'll be breaking ground on the wall. The best would be an actual double wall along some sections, and a double barbed-wire fence in less traversed regions. In the space between the walls should be a road for quick access by border patrol. They also need to make use of Israeli wall monitoring, and tunnel monitoring technology. If the cartel attacks sections of the wall, carry out military operations against those targets.

To be fair, the wall must be coupled with swift deportation of those who overstay visas. Those you overstay visas should be banned from re-entering the United States for anywhere between 5 to 10 years.

Your deluded, globalist dreams of "open borders" need to meet a timely death.

If you don't like it, apply for "refugee" status in Canada. I hear they're not even denying any applications at this point.
 
I can tell you read/watch the mainstream news. Critique Trump much?

There is literally nothing new in the way politics are working. This exact same thing has been happening since the beginning of our democracy. The president gets to pick who gets to keep their jobs... whoopidiedooo
 
13783607:DirtYStylE said:
I can tell you read/watch the mainstream news. Critique Trump much?

There is literally nothing new in the way politics are working. This exact same thing has been happening since the beginning of our democracy. The president gets to pick who gets to keep their jobs... whoopidiedooo

Minus the fact he fired someone from their position for interpreting the law in a manner he didn't like.
 
13783609:.MASSHOLE. said:
Minus the fact he fired someone from their position for interpreting the law in a manner he didn't like.

Are you familiar with a duel?

Thomas Jefferson's vice president Aaron Burr had also avoided murder charges after killing former Treasury secretary and founding father Alexander Hamilton in a duel.

I would say that its okay to fire someone over a disagreement
 
13783612:DirtYStylE said:
Are you familiar with a duel?

Thomas Jefferson's vice president Aaron Burr had also avoided murder charges after killing former Treasury secretary and founding father Alexander Hamilton in a duel.

I would say that its okay to fire someone over a disagreement

Oh for fucks sake, are you really comparing the 1700s to the 2000s?

That duel also had NOTHING to do with politics.

Firing an AG because one doesn't like how they interpret the law is absurd. The last time something similar to this happened was when Nixon's AG and Deputy AG resigned because they didn't want to remove the special prosecutor investigating Watergate. You had a similar event in 2006 with Bush, but it wasn't the US AG, it was just US Attorneys.
 
13783615:.MASSHOLE. said:
Oh for fucks sake, are you really comparing the 1700s to the 2000s?

That duel also had NOTHING to do with politics.

Firing an AG because one doesn't like how they interpret the law is absurd. The last time something similar to this happened was when Nixon's AG and Deputy AG resigned because they didn't want to remove the special prosecutor investigating Watergate. You had a similar event in 2006 with Bush, but it wasn't the US AG, it was just US Attorneys.

We are talking about two different things and you just answered your own question.

To get back on track...

OP's question: are the checks and balances starting to fail? My answer: No

Qualification: There is nothing new happening. Trump and his administration is either smart enough or under enough scrutiny for this assumption to arise.
 
13783618:DirtYStylE said:
We are talking about two different things and you just answered your own question.

To get back on track...

OP's question: are the checks and balances starting to fail? My answer: No

Qualification: There is nothing new happening. Trump and his administration is either smart enough or under enough scrutiny for this assumption to arise.

And do you remember what happened with both of those events? Nixon resigned before Watergate was over, and the Bush Administration saw intense investigations over whether or not the firings were political.

Saying that event is "not new" is false. The firing of an AG, not a US Attorney or Special Prosecutor, is unprecedented. The Executive Branch stepped into the Judicial Branch's territory (yes, I am aware the AG is appointed by the Executive Branch) by telling the AG that they were interpreting the law incorrectly.

Is this a major event in the scheme of checks and balances? No. But is it something that sees the Executive Branch stepping into the Judicial Branch's territory? Yes.
 
13783621:.MASSHOLE. said:
And do you remember what happened with both of those events? Nixon resigned before Watergate was over, and the Bush Administration saw intense investigations over whether or not the firings were political.

Saying that event is "not new" is false. The firing of an AG, not a US Attorney or Special Prosecutor, is unprecedented. The Executive Branch stepped into the Judicial Branch's territory (yes, I am aware the AG is appointed by the Executive Branch) by telling the AG that they were interpreting the law incorrectly.

Is this a major event in the scheme of checks and balances? No. But is it something that sees the Executive Branch stepping into the Judicial Branch's territory? Yes.

I like this progress. So if we are moving towards authoritarianism, according to the constitution, Trump will get impeached.
 
13783615:.MASSHOLE. said:
Oh for fucks sake, are you really comparing the 1700s to the 2000s?

That duel also had NOTHING to do with politics.

Firing an AG because one doesn't like how they interpret the law is absurd. The last time something similar to this happened was when Nixon's AG and Deputy AG resigned because they didn't want to remove the special prosecutor investigating Watergate. You had a similar event in 2006 with Bush, but it wasn't the US AG, it was just US Attorneys.

I'll play devil's advocate and argue that you're over simplifying. Her agency exists within the executive branch and although it's a political norm (and maybe lightly codified somewhere) that it remains independent from the White House, he's still her boss and she still reports to him.

I would assume the former AG voiced her concerns to Trump/his staff and those concerns fell on deaf ears. At that point, if she respected him but felt so viscerally opposed to the move so as to not be able to enforce it, she should resign. Indeed reports say she considered resigning but felt that more extreme action was necessary. A call to her agency - let alone a public one - is pretty audacious. It should have resulted in a call for her resignation rather than a firing, but still; typically, extreme action can result in such an outcome.

I find it very ironic that Sessions questioned Yates during her Senate confirmation and asked her whether she'd be able to say "no" to the President.
 
13783630:miroz said:
I'll play devil's advocate and argue that you're over simplifying. Her agency exists within the executive branch and although it's a political norm (and maybe lightly codified somewhere) that it remains independent from the White House, he's still her boss and she still reports to him.

I would assume the former AG voiced her concerns to Trump/his staff and those concerns fell on deaf ears. At that point, if she respected him but felt so viscerally opposed to the move so as to not be able to enforce it, she should resign. Indeed reports say she considered resigning but felt that more extreme action was necessary. A call to her agency - let alone a public one - is pretty audacious. It should have resulted in a call for her resignation rather than a firing, but still; typically, extreme action can result in such an outcome.

I find it very ironic that Sessions questioned Yates during her Senate confirmation and asked her whether she'd be able to say "no" to the President.

I won't pretend to be a US Government or law expert but here is my take (given my rudimentary knowledge).

There is no denying the DoJ is part of the Executive Branch nor is there denying that the DoJ is supposed to determine whether or not EO's are constitutional. The Office of Legal Counsel even found the order and EO constitutional. But the OLC's role is only supposed to look at whether the EO is lawful at face value and properly drafted. The AG is the one who is supposed to look at the EO and surrounding circumstances, in this case the Trump Administration's history of statements involving Muslims and bans, and determine whether or not the law is enforceable in respect to the Constitution.

I'm not saying I think her rational for ignoring the EO is strong (I think there were better arguments to be made), but I do think she was on to something.

I do think she could have resigned as you stated but we have an idea about why she didn't. However, the public wording of the statement is worrisome. Words like "betrayed" and "refusing" are very strong and indicate that dissent may not be tolerated in the administration.
 
13783630:miroz said:
I'll play devil's advocate and argue that you're over simplifying. Her agency exists within the executive branch and although it's a political norm (and maybe lightly codified somewhere) that it remains independent from the White House, he's still her boss and she still reports to him.

I would assume the former AG voiced her concerns to Trump/his staff and those concerns fell on deaf ears. At that point, if she respected him but felt so viscerally opposed to the move so as to not be able to enforce it, she should resign. Indeed reports say she considered resigning but felt that more extreme action was necessary. A call to her agency - let alone a public one - is pretty audacious. It should have resulted in a call for her resignation rather than a firing, but still; typically, extreme action can result in such an outcome.

I find it very ironic that Sessions questioned Yates during her Senate confirmation and asked her whether she'd be able to say "no" to the President.

Trump's termination letter was childish and unprofessional, yet another instance of him lashing out and looking ridiculous. Not the first, certainly not the last. I guess we will get used to that over the next four years. Although I do think this AG thing is overblown, yet another strategic sleight of hand to get the media away from focusing on the actual issue: The Muslim travel ban. Aside from the fact that Yates is most likely correct in her legal opinion, she was going to remain acting AG at most for like another week. So this is kind of a non story in that sense. She and the Trump Administration really had nothing to lose either way. A lot of news made over nothing, whatever it takes to keep the public from focusing on the most important issue.
 
13783607:DirtYStylE said:
I can tell you read/watch the mainstream news. Critique Trump much?

There is literally nothing new in the way politics are working. This exact same thing has been happening since the beginning of our democracy. The president gets to pick who gets to keep their jobs... whoopidiedooo

I do read and listen to the mainstream media. Where do you get your information?

Respond with something of substance please.
 
13784269:pmw said:
Respond with something of substance please.

Two posts and they are both asking for substance. I got you covered pal

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aaaaaaand one more for good measure

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13784280:DirtYStylE said:
Two posts and they are both asking for substance. I got you covered pal

yu006.jpg


PpseB0b.png


aaaaaaand one more for good measure

48413512.jpg

Oh i get it, you're a troll. Well, if you find time to read the thread and have any thoughts, we'll be here.
 
13784286:pmw said:
Oh i get it, you're a troll. Well, if you find time to read the thread and have any thoughts, we'll be here.

I already made my contribution. Where is your opinion? All I saw was a copy pasta.

Here is my thought: "if we are moving towards authoritarianism, according to the constitution, Trump will get impeached."
 
13783505:SammyDubz said:
You're trying way too hard dude

13784269:pmw said:
I do read and listen to the mainstream media. Where do you get your information?

Respond with something of substance please.

13784286:pmw said:
Oh i get it, you're a troll. Well, if you find time to read the thread and have any thoughts, we'll be here.

Retweet
 
13784291:DirtYStylE said:
I already made my contribution. Where is your opinion? All I saw was a copy pasta.

Here is my thought: "if we are moving towards authoritarianism, according to the constitution, Trump will get impeached."

You said above this is politics as usual, but I haven't been able to find any indication in recent history where a chief strategist was given a permanent seat at the NSC. Nor can I find one where joint chief of staff and the DNI had theirs revoked. Could you please point me in that direction? I'd be interested in reading up on that.

Further, you assumed, accurately, that I read, listen to, and watch mainstream media sources. Which alternative media outlets do you subscribe to, and how do you determine their legitimacy?
 
The whole checks and balances system seemed like a good idea until congress decided to stop working and take total advantage of the system.

People are saying both the judicial branch and executive branches are over stepping but maybe if congress did something the other two branches wouldnt have to pick up the slack.
 
13784362:Tinga said:
The whole checks and balances system seemed like a good idea until congress decided to stop working and take total advantage of the system.

People are saying both the judicial branch and executive branches are over stepping but maybe if congress did something the other two branches wouldnt have to pick up the slack.

This so much. Why doesn't Congress declare war anymore as intended by the Constitution? Because Congress is a group of hapless fuckwit partisan hacks insulated from the public will by campaign finance corruption and jerrymandering that has left the other branches of government no choice but to overstep and fill the vacuum. Well played America. You could only protect yourselves from yourselves for so long.
 
13786794:NYager said:
Well put. It takes lots of mental effort to use logic anyways, so we, as humans, are quick to discard of it.

I recently heard an interesting analogy about the way humans think and make decisions as being like someone riding/driving an elephant. The massive elephant represents the emotional response and reacts immediately to new situations. The rider represents the logical response. The rider will often lose the steering battle to the elephant unless they can convince the elephant to slow down. It's from a book that teaches you to reign in your elephant and respect other people's points of view. I forget the title, but it's on my reading list.

Removing decision making from preconceived beliefs and emotional responses is nearly impossible. Human brains weren't designed to operate in a world that is so big, fast, and complex.
 
13783404:fuckmekevin said:
So let me get this straight, the US covertly/overtly funds extremist insurgencies and topples sovereign governments in middle eastern countries for decades to prop up puppet dictatorships, and now we're surprised by Anti-American backlash? And in the name of fighting this backlash we effectively destroy these countries and create a giant refugee crisis while refusing to resettle any of them? Oh and on top of all that the country actually funding and providing arms to radical Wahhabi-Islam across the region is our closest ally? Seems legit.

Remember, the Obama administration banned immigrants in Iraq for 6 months, where was the outlash then? I think this has to do with something much deeper. Propaganda isn't just about changing our minds anymore, it's about confusing us and making us so emotional it overrides our sense of logic, so our tribalism overrides our sense of compassion, which makes us easy to control.

Basically cry about how these civilians need to be saved by having them settle in America while at the same time air striking and killing these same civilians without batting an eye.
 
13786863:miroz said:
I recently heard an interesting analogy about the way humans think and make decisions as being like someone riding/driving an elephant. The massive elephant represents the emotional response and reacts immediately to new situations. The rider represents the logical response. The rider will often lose the steering battle to the elephant unless they can convince the elephant to slow down. It's from a book that teaches you to reign in your elephant and respect other people's points of view. I forget the title, but it's on my reading list.

Removing decision making from preconceived beliefs and emotional responses is nearly impossible. Human brains weren't designed to operate in a world that is so big, fast, and complex.

And yet the world continues to grow exponentially, operating at an ever-increasing rate, too complicated and too fast for the human brain. For many westerners, 'logic' comes from the ability to attain information rapidly and with little train of thought. I think meditation is a perfect way to train your brain into becoming more logical and open minded but that's an eastern thing. That's too new agey. It's boring they say. Mine as well stay sane, and listen to white noise, scrolling through social media posts just to stimulate the brain. I believe silence is the enemy and savior of those who are afraid of logic. idk
 
13786918:Gods_Father said:
Basically cry about how these civilians need to be saved by having them settle in America while at the same time air striking and killing these same civilians without batting an eye.

It's like they do it on purpose. The 7 country ban list is probably so ISIS can continue to use civilians as human shields, it's not about security when you're bombing civilians and I allegedly ISIS, while simultaneously arming ISIS and Wahhabi-salafist groups. Mine as well have a no fly zone for ISIS, start bombing Assad and Iran at the same time. It's only inevitable that we start war with Iran. Also, immigration will increase welfare state, poverty, crime, etc. Yet, liberals want so bad for refugees to come to the US, yet theses same people supported Obama administration who directly caused the destabilization vacuum. Everyone seems to protest the trivial things. Also, I don't know what I'm talking about.
 
13786977:fuckmekevin said:
That would basically lead to gulags

sounds worth it. I don't care about right or left, I really just want stupid and ignorant gone, regardless of skin color.

Dumb white people?

Dumb black people?

Christians?

Muslims?

Deport them. To the bottom of the nearest ocean. Tell me why that version of America wouldn't be infinitely better than the current one.
 
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