Court rules in Favor of Vail/Talisker over PCMR

Lets get a few thing straight before this blows up.

1. PCMR/Powdr owns the base and the whole frontside of PCMR. Vail/Talisker can not operate PCMR until Powdr sells this part of the resort to Talisker, which they will never do.

2. This ruling is basically an official statement of "PCMR/Powdr corp failed to renew their lease 3 years ago" PCMR/Powdr has been fighting with Vail/Talisker of the validity of the lease, if the renewal was missed or not and other factors. This new ruling doesn't say Vail/Talisker owns pcmr or runs pcmr.

3. This is a media frenzy, nothing is actually going to happen anytime soon. Now its another year or two of pcmr/powdr and talisker/vail negotiating a new lease/a purchase/a whatever to settle everything. Nothing is going to happen to PCMR. Most of these news articles you will read have false information and other things to rile up the public, please ignore it. Unofficials article has been the best so far IMO:
http://unofficialnetworks.com/break...ail-resorts-park-city-mountain-resort-130897/

Please read this post before you guys go off on some insane uneducated bullshit.
 
12999973:pussyfooter said:
Lets get a few thing straight before this blows up.

1. PCMR/Powdr owns the base and the whole frontside of PCMR. Vail/Talisker can not operate PCMR until Powdr sells this part of the resort to Talisker, which they will never do.

2. This ruling is basically an official statement of "PCMR/Powdr corp failed to renew their lease 3 years ago" PCMR/Powdr has been fighting with Vail/Talisker of the validity of the lease, if the renewal was missed or not and other factors. This new ruling doesn't say Vail/Talisker owns pcmr or runs pcmr.

3. This is a media frenzy, nothing is actually going to happen anytime soon. Now its another year or two of pcmr/powdr and talisker/vail negotiating a new lease/a purchase/a whatever to settle everything. Nothing is going to happen to PCMR. Most of these news articles you will read have false information and other things to rile up the public, please ignore it. Unofficials article has been the best so far IMO:
http://unofficialnetworks.com/break...ail-resorts-park-city-mountain-resort-130897/

Please read this post before you guys go off on some insane uneducated bullshit.
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Based on the unofficialnetworks article it sounds to me like there is a real possibility that PCMR will not be able to operate the upper slopes for the 14-15 season. If Vail is found in favor of the unlawful detainer counterclaim on June 19 they can and will move for summary judgment to evict PCMR (which they will likely get if they win June 19). If this happens PCMR can then appeal the decision in order to gain rights BACK to the upper area. In the meantime they will not be able to operate up top until they win an appeal.

This recent ruling decided that PCMR DID screw up on renewing their lease. That puts them in a very unfortunate spot because the company who owns that land is next-door neighbor and competitor Vail/Taliskier. If you think Vail is going to cut PCMR some kind of a decent deal being able to get back into the lease you have your head in the clouds. They have PCMR by the balls and know it. Vail is a publicly traded company who's number one goal is to return a profit to shareholders. With my limited knowledge of this it seems very damning for PCMR.

To me the real question is can PCMR continue to successfully operate without the Vail/Taliskier land? I don't see it coming back to them.
 
Keep in mind when reading the unofficialnetworks article that both people quoted are on the side of PCMR. It is fairly one sided.
 
13000009:jensen said:
To me the real question is can PCMR continue to successfully operate without the Vail/Taliskier land? I don't see it coming back to them.
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Everyone thinks talisker is trying to use pcmr as an example but I dunno if I buy it. Talisker can make millions of dollars for another 50 years leasing their land to PCMR, why would they not lease it back? Do they really want to spend millions of dollars themselves to expand canyons over the next 5 years so their consumers can access the land they own? No way. More lifts, more land, more employees, more money out of their pocket. It doesnt really make sense for them to just let the land sit there and not make any money on it. Vail/Talisker is too greedy, pcmr is gonna probably pay out the ass for it and deal with alot back payments on the past 3 years, but I would bet theyre just going to renew their lease and life moves on.

This is all based on the assumption that powdr wont sell the base of PCMR, which I would be shocked if they did.
 
13000017:pussyfooter said:
Talisker can make millions of dollars for another 50 years leasing their land to PCMR, why would they not lease it back?
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Here is Vail/Taliskier's options:

1) Charge PCMR an arm and a leg to lease back the land. Make the costs so high that there is very little room left for PCMR to turn a profit. Vail profits, PCMR doesn't. Eventually Vail wins.

2) Don't renew the lease back to PCMR. Leave PCMR to compete with Canyons without the land that Vail/Taliskier owns. I haven't skied PCMR and I don't know how much of the mountain is on the land in question, but I am assuming that it is enough that losing the land would be pretty detremental to PCMR. PCMR tries to keep it going, maybe they shift to an even more park focused mountain or cater to a more specific niche than they currently do. Either way they are going to lose customers. Eventually Vail wins.

If Vail doesn't lease the land back why would they need to build lifts and access to it? Just wait for PCMR to drown and then swoop them for a bargain after the resort has lost significant value. I see PCMR eventually being owned by Vail as a direct result of this.
 
13000009:jensen said:
Based on the unofficialnetworks article it sounds to me like there is a real possibility that PCMR will not be able to operate the upper slopes for the 14-15 season. If Vail is found in favor of the unlawful detainer counterclaim on June 19 they can and will move for summary judgment to evict PCMR (which they will likely get if they win June 19). If this happens PCMR can then appeal the decision in order to gain rights BACK to the upper area. In the meantime they will not be able to operate up top until they win an appeal.

This recent ruling decided that PCMR DID screw up on renewing their lease. That puts them in a very unfortunate spot because the company who owns that land is next-door neighbor and competitor Vail/Taliskier. If you think Vail is going to cut PCMR some kind of a decent deal being able to get back into the lease you have your head in the clouds. They have PCMR by the balls and know it. Vail is a publicly traded company who's number one goal is to return a profit to shareholders. With my limited knowledge of this it seems very damning for PCMR.

To me the real question is can PCMR continue to successfully operate without the Vail/Taliskier land? I don't see it coming back to them.
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From the article you are referring to:

"In the meantime, we expect that PCMR will operate business as usual for the 2014-15 season. We believe that no action affecting the operation of the Resort can occur until the appeals are completed, which is likely to take at least another year. "
 
13000045:cottage_steeze said:
From the article you are referring to:

"In the meantime, we expect that PCMR will operate business as usual for the 2014-15 season. We believe that no action affecting the operation of the Resort can occur until the appeals are completed, which is likely to take at least another year. "
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Says PCMR's attorney. You really think he is going to come out and say we are screwed? Continue reading past your quote where the article references the June 19th hearing.
 
Can anyone make the map on the link to unofficial networks site bigger so I can actually see who owns what land. Thanks
 
13000070:pussyfooter said:
How can anyone root for Vail/Talisker? Theyre some of the worst companies in skiing...
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Well, Vail's season passes are some of the cheapest around, and they don't let people pay extra to skip the lines like Powdr Corp does.
 
13000065:Scaredwhiteboy said:
Atta boy Vail. Give 'em the D.
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honestly I agree. I dont get why everyone hates on vail resorts except that they are a big company. What exactly do you not like about how vail, breck, key, etc are run? The only thing I dislike are the yellow jackets but hey I can deal with that to get an all inclusive pass for 10 mountains for $700 or stick around CO for a mere $500. $800 FOR JUST PARK CITY. fuck man and thats the most basic pass also. I say go for it vail resorts. This may be long and drawn out, but in the end I see Vail Resorts coming out on top. In either case they will make a stack.
 
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I hope PCMR delivers by dismantling the lifts.
 
13000205:infedel_one said:
honestly I agree. I dont get why everyone hates on vail resorts except that they are a big company. What exactly do you not like about how vail, breck, key, etc are run? The only thing I dislike are the yellow jackets but hey I can deal with that to get an all inclusive pass for 10 mountains for $700 or stick around CO for a mere $500. $800 FOR JUST PARK CITY. fuck man and thats the most basic pass also. I say go for it vail resorts. This may be long and drawn out, but in the end I see Vail Resorts coming out on top. In either case they will make a stack.
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Vail = Aids, they are both parasites, one kills your body, the other kills your mountain, big business dosent care about you, they care about your wallet, and if you cant supply them with the cash go kick rocks. they are buying everything, Bear mt in Cali, and they also want to buy mammmoth, if ive heard correctly (dont quote me on those 100%) MONEY DOSENT MAKE A RESORT GOOD FOR THE SKIERS, LOCALS DO!! do you want your resort chalked full of thousands of gapers?
 
13000070:pussyfooter said:
How can anyone root for Vail/Talisker? Theyre some of the worst companies in skiing...
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13000231:LOLZfajitas said:
Vail = Aids, they are both parasites, one kills your body, the other kills your mountain, big business dosent care about you, they care about your wallet, and if you cant supply them with the cash go kick rocks. they are buying everything, Bear mt in Cali, and they also want to buy mammmoth, if ive heard correctly (dont quote me on those 100%) MONEY DOSENT MAKE A RESORT GOOD FOR THE SKIERS, LOCALS DO!! do you want your resort chalked full of thousands of gapers?
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How much does a Park City pass cost?
 
13000255:.Duncan. said:
How much does a Park City pass cost?
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$830 for just PC. is PC not full of gapers already pussyfooter? Honestly when Ive been there its been crowded out the ass aswell.
 
13000205:infedel_one said:
honestly I agree. I dont get why everyone hates on vail resorts except that they are a big company. What exactly do you not like about how vail, breck, key, etc are run?
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I really want an answer to this. It's not like Vail has run its mountains into the ground or is forcing the locals away. I think if you asked most Colorado skiers they'd be pretty content with the way Vail runs things.
 
13000040:jensen said:
Here is Vail/Taliskier's options:

1) Charge PCMR an arm and a leg to lease back the land. Make the costs so high that there is very little room left for PCMR to turn a profit. Vail profits, PCMR doesn't. Eventually Vail wins.

2) Don't renew the lease back to PCMR. Leave PCMR to compete with Canyons without the land that Vail/Taliskier owns. I haven't skied PCMR and I don't know how much of the mountain is on the land in question, but I am assuming that it is enough that losing the land would be pretty detremental to PCMR. PCMR tries to keep it going, maybe they shift to an even more park focused mountain or cater to a more specific niche than they currently do. Either way they are going to lose customers. Eventually Vail wins.

If Vail doesn't lease the land back why would they need to build lifts and access to it? Just wait for PCMR to drown and then swoop them for a bargain after the resort has lost significant value. I see PCMR eventually being owned by Vail as a direct result of this.
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If they shifted even further to park-based I would be so happy
 
all i can say from over here in vt is FUCK VAIL RESORTS! I went to CO for feb break this year and i really wanted to go to breck or key but couldnt because tickets are $120. for a fucking lift ticket. bunch of money hungry fucking douchebags is what vail/talisker are. i hope pcmr prevails
 
13000017:pussyfooter said:
Everyone thinks talisker is trying to use pcmr as an example but I dunno if I buy it. Talisker can make millions of dollars for another 50 years leasing their land to PCMR, why would they not lease it back? Do they really want to spend millions of dollars themselves to expand canyons over the next 5 years so their consumers can access the land they own? No way. More lifts, more land, more employees, more money out of their pocket. It doesnt really make sense for them to just let the land sit there and not make any money on it. Vail/Talisker is too greedy, pcmr is gonna probably pay out the ass for it and deal with alot back payments on the past 3 years, but I would bet theyre just going to renew their lease and life moves on.

This is all based on the assumption that powdr wont sell the base of PCMR, which I would be shocked if they did.
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I agree, I think this will all result in an more expensive lease for PCMR and that's about it. It's just vail strongarming PCMR for some more money.
 
13000326:infedel_one said:
$830 for just PC. is PC not full of gapers already pussyfooter? Honestly when Ive been there its been crowded out the ass aswell.
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park city's young adult pass is for 18-29 year olds and it's like 439 early season, 539 before November or something. thank god I can be a bum for 3 more years
 
13000326:infedel_one said:
$830 for just PC. is PC not full of gapers already pussyfooter? Honestly when Ive been there its been crowded out the ass aswell.
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>full of gapers

>mecca of park skiing

Yeah something doesn't compute...

also I skied there on a Sunday and Monday this January and the place was relatively empty
 
Do they have the right to dismantle the lifts if they are indeed kicked out? I mean, I totally would try if I was PCMR, but is it legal?

Also ski resort politics are silly.
 
13000427:Strange.Journey. said:
all i can say from over here in vt is FUCK VAIL RESORTS! I went to CO for feb break this year and i really wanted to go to breck or key but couldnt because tickets are $120. for a fucking lift ticket. bunch of money hungry fucking douchebags is what vail/talisker are. i hope pcmr prevails
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this, i went out there in feb as well for a few weeks and stayed with homies in breck. If i did not borrow passes i couldve afforded to ski 1 day and eat for like 4 days, but because of borrowing i was able to shred for nearly 2 weeks. like what about families trying to take their kin on a ski trip? aint no normal parents gonna be able to afford that and get their kids into shredding
 
13000427:Strange.Journey. said:
all i can say from over here in vt is FUCK VAIL RESORTS! I went to CO for feb break this year and i really wanted to go to breck or key but couldnt because tickets are $120. for a fucking lift ticket. bunch of money hungry fucking douchebags is what vail/talisker are. i hope pcmr prevails
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by a damn pass then for what? 540? jeezus dude dont complain about the day tickets if you can buy a pass for the equivalent of 4 days skiing. if you go for ONE WEEK you can pay off your pass. Lift ticket prices are jacked up everywhere. 120 is on a bit of the ridiculous side but not when you can buy a pass. That price is for the yuppies.
 
13000009:jensen said:
This recent ruling decided that PCMR DID screw up on renewing their lease.
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True. I have heard from a few different people that the lease renewal was only a couple hours late, due to the guy (who was supposed to deliver the payment) having to go see his kid in the hospital.

Assuming this is true, then yes, technically PC dropped the ball. But for Talisker/Vail to be so hard-headed about it is just scuzzy. Nothing officially confirmed about this, or it could just be PC trying to get some sympathy. But I guess, who ever expected a moment of humanity from Vail/Talisker.
 
I have yet to see someone come up with a legitimate reason why vail sucks MORE than powdr . I would personally like to hear from an actual employee in the park city area or at a vail resort.

I take my yearly trip to PC and the two days I ski at PCMR and the Canyons makes up the wealth of knowledge I have at either companies mountains. Both seem like big money making companies to me with outrageous hamburger prices, but at least you get epic mix at the canyons.

Personally, though its their last round in the magazine, Powdr seems to have the upper hand. It does not seem that Powdr will even consider any price whatsoever on all the infrastructure. Vail cannot do jack without it, they would become the owners of a bunch of mountain tops with 0 access capabilities. The guy who said Vail probably will strong arm them into a more expensive deal makes a lot of sense, but you can also see that as Powdr saving their resort from a Vail takeover.

I can't see any company of any kind literally roping off the top of a ski resort to publicly watch a competitor shrivel and die literally from a mountain looking down.

Also, ya know Deer Valley is down the god damn street if you want to talk about overblown ski companies making a dry slope out of dollar bills.
 
I've been to utah on 3 seperate trips, park city was the first ski resort I ever went to in utah, and I never went back. The bird, alta, solitude and brighton I found to be insanely fun.
 
I feel like there is lack of talk about dismantling the lifts

didn't pcmr threaten that just a month or so ago? is it a last resort for them or were they just bluffing?

taking down lifts would cost pcmr tons of money and exponentially more for vail yeah?
 
13000669:PC.Jibber said:
True. I have heard from a few different people that the lease renewal was only a couple hours late, due to the guy (who was supposed to deliver the payment) having to go see his kid in the hospital.

Assuming this is true, then yes, technically PC dropped the ball. But for Talisker/Vail to be so hard-headed about it is just scuzzy. Nothing officially confirmed about this, or it could just be PC trying to get some sympathy. But I guess, who ever expected a moment of humanity from Vail/Talisker.
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Lets just say I have a "inside" connection. The lease renewal was not hours late but days and for what reason I don't know. What I do know is that Park City then fraudulently "back dated" the lease renewal. Then here is where it gets bad for PCMR. They had been paying a lease that was negotiated over 40 years ago now and every 20 years they had to renew. In their lease agreement, if they chose to renew, the rent price stayed the SAME. So they were paying a lease with a market value of over 40 years old and still charging their customers about the same price as every other resort. So in my opinion it only makes sense Talisker did this. While I will agree with many of you that big business and/or monopoly's in skiing are bad. I don't believe that Park City's ownership does anything more valuable for skiing.
 
12999973:pussyfooter said:
Lets get a few thing straight before this blows up.

1. PCMR/Powdr owns the base and the whole frontside of PCMR. Vail/Talisker can not operate PCMR until Powdr sells this part of the resort to Talisker, which they will never do.

2. This ruling is basically an official statement of "PCMR/Powdr corp failed to renew their lease 3 years ago" PCMR/Powdr has been fighting with Vail/Talisker of the validity of the lease, if the renewal was missed or not and other factors. This new ruling doesn't say Vail/Talisker owns pcmr or runs pcmr.

3. This is a media frenzy, nothing is actually going to happen anytime soon. Now its another year or two of pcmr/powdr and talisker/vail negotiating a new lease/a purchase/a whatever to settle everything. Nothing is going to happen to PCMR. Most of these news articles you will read have false information and other things to rile up the public, please ignore it. Unofficials article has been the best so far IMO:
http://unofficialnetworks.com/break...ail-resorts-park-city-mountain-resort-130897/

Please read this post before you guys go off on some insane uneducated bullshit.
Click to expand...

You are pretty wrong and off on a lot of this...
 
13001044:SkiBum. said:
You are pretty wrong and off on a lot of this...
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if that's the case then correct the points in question. not doing much good just saying "some of this is wrong," eh?
 
13000601:Ribss. said:
Because they are the definition of a monopoly and still growing.
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Isn't there laws about companies like this monopolizing? Or is not until Vail owns enough resorts that they can raise the prices enough to knock out the competition like Powdr that they are considered a monopoly?
 
Honestly I don't see what the big issue is for vail/talisker to buy PCMR. They are actually making it cheaper to visit a wide variety of resorts.

Now here is the reaction of most of you on here after reading this...713265.gif

Give me chance...

You buy one season pass and have access to over 17 resorts in 6 states in 2 different countries.

Yes is vail's season pass ridiculous... Yes. The season pass I bought last year for a resort in MN equals one day's lift ticket at breck or vail (so I am not used to paying high prices).

The reasons why their prices are so high right now is because they have been expanding ruthlessly over the past 10 years and that shit costs a lot of money just to pay off interest gained on their investments.

You guys ultimately need to understand that you participate in a sport that is not meant for the poor. Its the same reason why you don't see poor people playing golf but if you go to your inner city basketball court and it is jam packed with people in poverty.

If you cant handle how expensive this sport is go play soccer

now that probably pissed a significant amount of you off...

713263.gif
 
13000919:KLund said:
Lets just say I have a "inside" connection. The lease renewal was not hours late but days and for what reason I don't know.
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According to someone on the Salt Lake Tribune comment board regarding why the lease wasn't renewed.

In 2007 PCMR got the "corporate downsizing" fever.

They laid off 30% of their office staff. This helped their bottom line.

UNTIL the lease came due, and the person in charge of renewing the lease no longer worked there. But hey, they saved $ 50K a year by laying off a dedicated employee.

When they realized they were up the creek, they even called him at home to ask where the lease was.

He said, in the top drawer of my old desk. This is stated fact , as it came out in deposition.
 
13001109:Twandos said:
Give me chance...

You buy one season pass and have access to over 17 resorts in 6 states in 2 different countries.
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Everybody is missing the point, the pass price is fucking irrelevant.
 
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