snowmosexual
Active member
Simple question.... is it that simple?
Can you switch spring to change Pivot 18 to 15
- Thread starter snowmosexual
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snowmosexual
Active member
14469342:Quaggy said:
I’m a believer that you shouldn’t be at the bottom bracket of a binding. I’ve been told everything is the same in 15v18 except the spring in the 15 is lighter which changes the din range
Quaggy
Active member
14469343:snowmosexual said:
Spring load/resistane to compression should be the only difference but physically they are the same size!
I've heard otherwise regarding the din settings of a binding though, a din of 8 on the 15 will release just the same as if you had a din of 8 on an 18, but to each their own!
snowmosexual
Active member
14469344:Quaggy said:Spring load/resistane to compression should be the only difference but physically they are the same size!
I've heard otherwise regarding the din settings of a binding though, a din of 8 on the 15 will release just the same as if you had a din of 8 on an 18, but to each their own!
So you’re saying the spring won’t make a difference?
FaunaSkis
Member
DIN is DIN, its a regulated and tightly defined spring release torque scale. The DIN number on bindings is just a different, simplified unit of torque, like ft-lbs or Nm.
A properly adjusted, properly functioning binding set at its lowest value will release the same as that same value in the middle of the range of a binding of a lower max-min range. Anything to the contrary is just superstition or myth, even the idea you should turn your DIN down over the summer.
There's no benefit to swapping out springs, you're just losing any right to recourse if the binding genuinely malfunctions and causes you harm.
A properly adjusted, properly functioning binding set at its lowest value will release the same as that same value in the middle of the range of a binding of a lower max-min range. Anything to the contrary is just superstition or myth, even the idea you should turn your DIN down over the summer.
There's no benefit to swapping out springs, you're just losing any right to recourse if the binding genuinely malfunctions and causes you harm.
SofaKingSick
Active member
bro no offense but i'd trust the DIN range designed and produced by engineers over the bindings you do open heart surgery on. how does that seem safer to you lmao
Chunderface
Active member
14469357:snowmosexual said:
fuckin idiot
snowmosexual
Active member
14469366:FaunaSkis said:
I’m on a cast system so that right to recourse is already out.
snowmosexual
Active member
Nothing any of you have said has gone against what some people have claimed to me about the only difference between 15 and 18 being the weight of the spring.
FaunaSkis
Member
14469417:snowmosexual said:
i'm not sure how you're going to set the din if you don't also get the indicator window changed. it may not be that its a simple subtraction of the difference in range between the 18 and 15, you would need to get a side-by-side of the indicator windows on the 15s and 18s. not to mention you will likely have to mess with the indicator position to swap the springs and who's to say whether it ends up back in the right position post-surgery.
Once when working in a rental shop I had an issue where all the brand new toes of a single binding model were failing on the release test and it turned out the springs were wrong, a technician from the brand had to come, swap the springs and check all the indicators were right, so its not as simple as it would first appear.
Just checked and Look don't say there is a weight difference between the 15 & 18, they are the same spring cases, pedestal & turntable assembly just with different springs and indicator windows. Spring characteristic change =/= weight change. The 14 & 12 weigh less because of the different toes on the lower din models, (but running CAST. I'm sure you know that).
Where are you getting just the springs from anyway?
snowmosexual
Active member
14469429:FaunaSkis said:
I’ve got a pair of race pivot 15s but the housing mount is a little different on the toe as they’re made for a race plate. They aren’t compatible with CAST.
SofaKingSick
Active member
14469417:snowmosexual said:
i don't think anyone is disputing that. idk if it's the weight of the spring but yeah the consensus is that 15/18s are identical besides the spring and the indicator
but what din are you looking to set yours on? people are negatively reacting to this surgery idea that is motivated by a myth ("you shouldn't use the high and low end of the DIN range"). if the 18s' range includes your DIN setting, set it to that and be done
snowmosexual
Active member
14469445:SofaKingSick said:
I wasnt reading well yesterday. Apologies for that.
I go off that myth cause of race coaches who swore by it. I’m going to be at 7-8.
SofaKingSick
Active member
14469471:snowmosexual said:
no worries. yeah, it seems pretty established that that is a myth but i wasn't "sure" myself until a few years ago-- it is a common and persistent myth. but when i've talked to truly knowledgeable people, like people who actually work at the top shelf binding companies, they've all told me it's a myth, DIN is DIN. and it makes sense, right? if using ~20% of the DIN range actually was dangerous i think we'd have heard of accidents and lawsuits stemming from it by now
since you want to be at a 7 or 8 i can see why you're pondering this (because min DIN on the 18s is 8), but i don't think this is a good idea. the bindings are already on the ski, is that why you can't/don't want to try to just find some 15s, maybe even try to trade the 18s for 15s?
snowmosexual
Active member
14469473:SofaKingSick said:
I’ve got a pair of race pivot 15s on some Rossi race skis but they’re made for race plates so you can’t mount them on anything else or switch the base to a CAST. I figured it was a question worth asking before I dropped some cash on a new pair of pivots. It’s a bit of a want rather than a need. Also fun thing to get opinions on.
FaunaSkis
Member
14469471:snowmosexual said:
It's funny the myths that have echoed through the ages from all around the industry with regard to how the technology and materials work with few definitive answers. It may have been before the DIN standardisation of release values that you would want to be in the middle of the range and it became a superstition.
Going down the nerd hole:
It should be noted that although an ideal spring performs perfectly linearly, the reality is there is variation in the spring characteristic, how the load is transferred through the different binding materials and the inherent elasticity of the binding release action design. This will mean a release at a DIN value on one design of binding compared to the same another will manifest differently, they are however going to release at the same torque value (+/- the allowed variation in the norm).
This variation could also be where the myth began in that if you're designing a binding that serves a range of release torques and you want to maximise the range of values that meet the corresponding DIN values within the allowed variation, it makes some sense to have the middle DIN of the range closest to the 'true' DIN value and everything else is still close enough to the correct corresponding torque to be within the norm.
This assumes some symmetry in the deviation around the central value as you go up and down the scale, which might not be realistic given the mix of materials that are used in binding systems.
You wouldn't be able to know unless you looked at graphs of the release torques across the DIN range of different bindings and know the process of binding design, whether you design for optimum at the highest and work back down the range, up from the bottom, from the centre out, or some other way.
If you're interested there's a good panel discussion from the Blister Summit last season, including a Salomon binding engineer and these kind of things are talked about.
(The DIN is DIN question gets raised at 52 mins if you don't want to watch it all)
