Boring white guy (Paul Ryan) picked as boring white guy (Mitt Romney)'s VP

The intention is to cut off our federal governments debt so if we cut the taxes that benefit the federal government while reducing the amount the federal government is spending than it will in time pay off the national debt. That is of course if the government reduces its spending by such an amount that it takes in more than it spends.
 
That is not how it should work. The wealthy should have to pay more taxes than the lower/middle classes. Yes they work hard for their money, newsflash so does almost everyone else yet they do not have nearly the amount of money. In the long run it comes down to the old 4 year old "mine phase". How bout everyone gives back to society by helping each other out and not trying to keep all of "their" money to themselves. I don't see why anyone in their right mind would disagree with that.
 
I'd say in a lot of ways, the wealthy don't work as hard as a lot of people who make less. They may have worked hard to get their education, or something (sometimes not... sometimes they are just straight given the job either through inheritance or some other favouritism) but I'd say a janitor or a miner or a waitress in a busy restaurant, or a motel maid, or a firefighter/policeman/EMT works far harder than many white collar guys who are simply tossing paper around and making calls...

Yet, who makes the money, right? If we were paid relative to how hard our jobs were, Whores would make the most cash...

 
Thanks for the explanation, Senator Ryan didn't go to in depth. My thoughts are if they raise taxes on the rich and cut spending more(cut military spending too) than that would certainly work better, although that is highly unlikely to happen(it is like a compromise between both parties, which would fix this). Of course this idea is simple, but I think it could benefit the gov't's situation in terms of debt at a small price for the american people.(they pay more taxes and receive less form the gov't because of decreased spending). You also need to decide what is a priority, or what's the big problem.
 
Oh my god, I am so mad right now. I just wrote a perfect response to your post citing articles and using quotes and I just accidentally closed the tab. I am not going rewrite what I said because frankly I already gave you 10 minutes of my time, and your not worth anymore than that.

But a quick summary of what that I said was that the insurance companies are implementing those policies because of this practice of defensive medicine, which is doctors protecting themselves from malpractice law suits. I'll provide you with this quote from your very own NYTimes article supporting that:

"Some of the tests being discouraged — like CT scans for someone who fainted but has no other neurological problems — are largely motivated by concerns over a malpractice lawsuits, experts said."

All I said was that doctors actually right now test for a lot of things you may not have, which is exactly is the opposite of what you said in the original quote. And that a possible way to fix this could be by fixing the judicial system and adding safeguards to protect physicians from frivolous malpractice suits.

Btw u are completely wrong on your analysis of me. I just don't simply care enough of what u think of me, to use proper grammar (see what i did there?).

 
They do pay more. My brother paid almost 350k last year in income tax. Why? Why should he have to pay most of his at such a higher percentage than you? Does he use more government than you? Does he damage the roads more than you? Sure hes rich, hes a dentist an busts his ass harder than you can even imagine. not to mention he busted his ass during 8 years of school accumulating nearly half a million in debt. Guess what, he also makes 9 jobs. He is the small business owner who gets shafted when dumbasses want to tax the rich. he already makes up the slack that you broke asses dont pay for, and you want him to pay more. Poor people just want higher taxes because theyre pissed they dont make much, "if i cant have it, neither can you" attitude. the gov needs less money, not more
 
If he paid 350k in taxes he clearly has money to spare, the government needs this money and he has a lot of extra money so they take it from him, he isn't struggling so why should you bitch and complain like it's a big deal, my family is pretty well off and I don't think it's bad that they have to pay more taxes because of that, like I said they can manage to do so and it helps them in turn as well as other people.
 
This thread really blew up....

a few comments:

ALAN Greenspan was Chairman of the Federal Reserve, not the SEC, and I have never heard of an ALLEN Greenspan.

In all of the talk about the deficit on here military spending was mentioned less than 5 times. (Paul Ryan and Romney have stated they want to increase military spending).

No one ever understands how tax brackets work so let me briefly explain:

You are taxed at the level for income within each category, regardless of what your top bracket is, so getting bumped into a higher income bracket doesn't really cause you to have less income than someone below you since you're taxed at a higher rate. The higher rate only applies to income within that category. For single:

  • 10% on taxable income from $0 to $8,700, plus
  • 15% on taxable income over $8,700 to $35,350, plus
  • 25% on taxable income over $35,350 to $85,650, plus
  • 28% on taxable income over $85,650 to $178,650, plus
  • 33% on taxable income over $178,650 to $388,350, plus
  • 35% on taxable income over $388,350.

Furthermore, whoever claimed that Romney paid like 38.6% tax or whatever is fucking stupid. Almost all of Romney's income comes from capital gains (which Paul Ryan wants to tax at 0.8%) which is currently taxed at 15% for someone in his income bracket (assuming he's in the same bracket as tax year 2010, since those are the only tax records he has released (although apparently 2011 will be released soon)). The issue with taxing "work" income separately from "investment" income is that it screws over people who are actually doing tangible acts to earn their money. I am not deriding investment here, however as a recent piece in The Economist stated, we should tax both the same to encourage both investment AND tangible work.

We have what is called a blind tax system. If you were "blind" from how much money you would make throughout your life would you rather: be screwed paying the same rate as the super rich if you didn't make a lot of money and be chilling at a lower rate if you did end up making millions -or- if you you made a shitton of money pay a little more in exchange for paying less if you did not end up becoming a millionaire??? The problem with America is that everyone thinks they can be a billionaire. And contrary to what anyone may say, we are not the land of opportunity.

I am personally of the belief that the tax system should be continuously variable based on income with a set bottom and top tax rates (which would be a lot easier to do than you'd think).

Finally, someone brought up the logical fallacy of the unusually large (30something? 40something?) percent who do not pay "taxes". This is of course not true. These people pay no personal federal income tax (due to the Earned Income Tax Credit passed by famous Marxist Ronald Reagan). However, they do still pay Medicare, Social Security, State income (generally), as well as their share of the payroll tax (and economists often say that the other part of the payroll tax paid by the employer is passed down to the employee in the form of lower wages).

Anyway, as usual the amount of people who know NOTHING about policy does not surprise me. But I figured there would be a few more.
 
The government needs his money? Are you dumb? Do you have multiples of anything? Multiple ski jackets? Goggles? You had better give em away because you clearly have enought to spare. He worked for it, its his. If he wants to donate it that should be his business, nobody elses. so you think if you pay way more than everyone else you shouldnt get to bitch about it? Im already pissed about the taxes i have to pay when i graduate dental school. maybe once mom stops wiping you ass you will realize that getting you earnings taking from you at a higher rate than everyone sucks. Dont worry thought, i will be here paying more in income tax than your entire family combined. Unless your dads a neurosurgeon, but hes probably not because if he was he would be smart enough to tell you your ideas a awful
 
Because once you grow up and see your tax dollars going to waste (In my case in NZ, being given to pregnant teens, overly lucrative settlements with indigenous peoples etc) you start to get a bit pissed off with where "your" cash is going.

At the end of the day, I believe I am better at spending MY money than a bunch of bureaucrats in my nation's capital. This is not a radical idea.

 
i see where you're coming from but the more you give them the more they give back, that's how your government operates. sure some people leech off the system a little but there's only so much they can get. if you don't think you're getting what you deserve for what you give them then move to a different country, america isn't likely to change anytime soon.
 
Buddy the government provides you a service. Stop acting like they are stealing your money, and stop being so short sighted. If you don't like here, feel free to leave the country and relocate, only to find out that the various first world countries around the world have just as high if not higher income tax rates than we do.

I understand where you are coming from, and frankly it would be easy to bitch about, I would too. But realize the money needs to come from somewhere, and well seemingly the only people who can afford it are the rich.
 
This may be the stupidest fucking thing i have ever heard. Why the hell should I work harder so your lazy ass can benefit? Giving money to help those in need is one thing, but getting it ripped out of your pocket so some jobless asshole can drink more beer on me isnt ok. Its my money, and i want to keep it. the government has screwed up every private business sector it has had a hand in, why would it change now? smaller government is more effective. I hope you realize it isnt the mega rich getting taxed. the people it is screwing are making 75,000 a year and up. AKA a giant portion of the ski industry, and a majority of the people on this site come from that. Not all, but i would bet most people here are "rich white kids".
 
Good work here.

El_Barto, please stop. With no due respect, people like you are those with the attitude that is fucking us over. Damn fucking right you and your brother should get the fuck taxed out of you. You will be making more than others anyway, and can live very lavishly. In my opinion, they should tax your brother more. Getting taxed at a higher rate affects you and your brother a whole lot less than it would someone from a lower income bracket, and that's the ideology behind it. We aren't looking at the equal proportion of money being taken, we are looking at an equality in how taxes affect people.
 
threads, you dont get much news coverage of this over here

also, is it just me or does he and his wife look exactly alike?

150176668.jpg
 
I simply do not understand liberal logic that thinks the wealthy should get taxed way more. I understand the idea, but it's so fuckig flawed. Threads for not mobile
 
LOL

The level of stupidity here is ridiculous.

I think there is more to a country being successful then simply the government coffers growing from income tax!

What about the economy? Ok so basics - If that extra money goes to the government in higher income tax, there is less money in his pocket.... therefore he doesn't go out and spend that... on goods and services, which stimulate the economy... it also means he is limited in who he can employ... if you keep increasing taxes linearly against people who earn a lot, you will destroy the whole economy - the same applies to the housing market and everything. There is SO much more to it than - He has more, he should pay more! It's a science, and has nothing to do with morality. People with more, spend more... which in turn stimulates everything.

That money ultimately DOES end up back with the government!! You pay for something, you pay tax on that... you employ someone, you and they pay taxes on their earnings... don't you see? This is not about rich and poor - this is about having a balanced economy that works... so that even you might one day be able to start your own business and have half a chance of it succeeding.

It is interesting though where most of the "young-uns" here have their moral compass pointed.. however when you grow up, and go through college then come out the other end, i PROMISE you, you will want a shot at a decent career, with the potential to earn good money. When you do earn good money, you'll want to earn more... and it'll drive you on to succeed at that... you're lifestyle will get better and better and it'll be awesome - America right?

Trust me, been there, done that. As i said earlier in here - the US needs a center right, fiscally responsible president for the next term or two to get the economy balanced, from top to bottom - KEY WORD = BALANCED! The top feeds into the economy more than the bottom... cut off your head and you're just as fucked.
 
By the way, he's lying about foreign tax rates - Canada's individual top marginal rate is lowest in AB at 39%, and highest in the atlantic provinces at (gasp) higher than the 45% Obama's proposing for the top rate - it's about 46 or so. The 15% he quotes is the federal tax rate on corporations, but each province also imposes a tax so the combined rate varies from 25% to around 32%. IIRC it's lower than US corporate rates but it's not 15%.

Also I am kind of unclear on why he's so against "picking winners and losers"... there's a reason we do that. It's called tax policy. I feel like this is an extremist version of a reasonable budget aimed at ignorant people who don't know anything.

That being said, those claiming that this dude is Palin 2.0 are totally out to lunch. He's clearly very intelligent and very well-spoken.
 
THANNK YOU!!! Lord, finally someone with some brains.

And Dingo_Sean$: I have a huge problem with what you said about the rich not working as hard as a janitor or waitress. HUGE problem. I DARE you to put a janitor up against the head of marketing for Pepsi for example. The janitor will work maybe...what... 8-10 hours a day mopping floors taking out trash. Yeah they may bust their ass doing it but its exactly that: mopping floors and taking out trash. Now the head of marketing for Pepsi is in charge of a couple BILLION dollars and is responsible to keep Pepsi, and MULTI BILLION DOLLAR company in the forefront for soft drinks. Whoever this person is probably works 12 hour days and even when they are off the clock, they are still working outside the office.

I'm actually insulted that you would think that my dad who owns and runs his own medical practice works not as hard as a fucking janitor or waitress. You work hard at your job? Good for you. That is expected. But it is nowhere near or even close the same stress level or high stakes as other white collar jobs. Thats why they get paid so much. They are a certain breed of people who know way more than the average person and have a lot more responsibility on their hands. Anyone can mop floors. Could you be a neurosurgeon? Exactly. Thats why one deserves a lot more money than the other.
 
Agreed.

Also rather than comment only on the fact that we should tax the rich more, perhaps look at what I pointed out as a compromise to pay off the debt. We tax more and spend less, as well as income tax we could raise taxes on foreign goods and go after the large corporations who evade taxes in foreign countries. This way Republicans are happy because we pay off the debt by cutting a lot of spending and the debt is being paid off(this debt is a major problem)

BTW I am not much of an expert at all on this topic, but from what I understand a compromise, of any kind, is the only way to fix this mess, which is the MAIN point I was getting at. Is this understood?
 
Best of luck with that. It's the inevitable outcome of a representative democracy, particularly one with only two parties.
 
I just can't sit around in silence any longer. I have been lurking around NS for years now, listening to everyone's opinion and generally enjoying the discourse over a variety of topics. But as we creep closer to November, and the political debates heat up, I just can't suffer in silence as I read these fallacy-ridden arguments any longer. Just as some background, I hold a degree in economics from Pomona College, which admittedly is a fairly left-leaning institution but also very reputable. I am a business consultant and am very involved in my family's small business, although I do not hold any equity at this point.

I would like to address a lot of the issues concerning this current presidential campaign, as this is what this thread was initially about, but I'd like to start with taxes as this seems to be the hot button issue at the moment. I'll start with some of the more illogical arguments first, as they don't take too much time to explain. First of all, those of you who think your taxes (or your parents') go straight into the pockets of day-drinking delinquents need to get your heads straight. First of all, social welfare programs make up a fairly small portion of our federal budget, i.e. unemployment, welfare, Medicaid, food stamps, etc. all add up to about 18%. In comparison, approximately 23% of our budget goes towards defense and other national security outlets, a number that would increase with Romney/Ryan. Also, the population of day-drinking delinquents is again another small percentage of the population receiving federal aid. Meaning that pennies, if not a percentage of a single penny, on your tax dollar MIGHT end up being used to purchase a beer. It should also be noted, that almost 50% of welfare recipients are children, which is especially so when it comes to foods stamps and Medicaid. I know this is just going to provoke people into claiming folks shouldn't start families if they can't pay for it, but that's another hasty generalization and I'm not about to judge people who simply want to carry out the one human purpose on this earth.

Secondly, yes, the rich should be taxed more and yes, that is fair. For me, this comes down to both compassion and simple macroeconomics. I care about people who are less fortunate than me, regardless of how they wound up that way (bad luck, substance abuse, victims of malicious intent). I realize this skiing community of ours is fairly well off and pretty sheltered, which is why I think a lot of you have no idea how difficult it is being poor. I could delve into all the reasons as to why this is, but you should all know that it's not as easy as "taking loans out to get an education" or "getting a job." Next time you see a homeless person on the street, genuinely try and think about what that would be like and the steps necessary to get back on your feet.

As for macroeconomics, I am flabbergasted that people still think the 'trickle-down' theory works. When the wealthy get tax breaks, they do not suddenly start purchasing more consumer goods. They are already living comfortably, the percentage of income spent on consumer goods would actually go down as their gross expenditure would remain constant. When the wealthy get tax breaks, they more often than not spend that extra income on restructuring their stockpile and increasing their investments, which don't trickle down anywhere (except to maybe tax lawyers). Therefore, increasing taxes on top income earners is most certainly an effective way of enforcing trickle down economics and improving the living standards of those less fortunate. I know THIS will provoke people into claiming top income earners would donate to charity more if they had more income, however studies and common sense show this is absolutely not true for many reasons. America has one of the 1st world's worst gini coefficients, that is absolutely inexcusable in my mind and should be fixed (cue cries of socialist pig here). I could get into the housing bubble and national debt but I'll save those arguments for later if the thread goes that direction

And lastly, for those of you squawking about small businesses being hurt by taxes you're also misled. And I say small businesses because large, multi-national corporations are doing just fine in this country, and I wouldn't mind seeing their corporate taxes increase just a bit because of it (but that's a different story). Small businesses, like well-earning individuals, do not immediately go and start spending when they receive tax breaks. That extra money goes straight into savings where it sits around and lets the economy stagnate. The best thing to do to encourage a small business to hire an employee, which is what this economy needs, is to boost spending through demand-side economics. To put it simply, giving my family business X amount in dollars due to tax breaks doesn't do anything. Putting X amount of dollars into the hands of consumers (note: consumers that would actually increase their spending as a percentage of income, not top earners) will bring them into the store and spark demand, consequently creating the need to employ more individuals. Small businesses would LOVE to make it into the $250,000+ bracket, regardless of how high the taxes are, just as individuals would.

Spark notes: There are so many other things I would love to talk about, but these were the arguments that I found particularly irking. Your tax dollars don't buy beers for lazy slobs. Trickle down economics does not work, so yes the top earners should be taxed more. Businesses do not need tax breaks, they need more demand. The segment of the population that represents the largest potential increase in demand/consumption is the lower and middle classes, not the upper class.

Thank you NS for finally tipping me over the edge, I look forward to contributing more within these forums. I'm not trying to bash anyone for their beliefs, I simply want to continue to learn about what other people have to say and maybe contribute a few ideas of my own.

 
Saw this post right after I made my "trickle down economics as a fallacy" post. LOL.

I wish we could make a thread where you have to:

1. Have taken micro/macro 101 classes

2. Read a major daily newspaper once a day

3. Taken an intro to poli sci class

4. Have held a full time job for more than a ski season

in order to post,

I feel like the intellect would be much greater (yes I am calling most of the posters on here stupid).

But it would certainly not be as entertaining.
 
Thank you for a civilized, concise and exclamation point-less post, well done. I am on the other side of this debate (I went to Miami University), and look forward to debating with you civilly on this as intelligent and respectful human beings. I have 2 undergrad degrees in finance and organizational behavior and work as a M&A professional. At work now, will respond later
 
Lowly grad student studying healthcare policy.

Before that I worked for 5 years in Emergency Medical Services as an EMT responding into some nice areas (South Orange County) and some not so nice areas (East Los Angeles, Unincorporated Compton, Huntington Park). I became a Field Training Officer and helped with hiring, continuing education, and new employee orientation. It was an interesting business and an interesting job.

I hope to end up working for a county or state health department or a research thinktank such as the Kaiser Family Foundation or Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. Anyone interested in learning more about healthcare reform or "Romenycare" should check them out: www.rwjf.org and www.kff.org

 
Interesting.

Well good luck to you - it sounds honorable what you are doing and it appears you are in favour of sorting out the US healthcare system - which is a good thing. I said earlier, that i think it would take a minimum of 15-20 years to change the healthcare system in America (if it is at all possible - there are too many people, making a lot of money out of the current commercial health care mega business that exists in the US. Good luck changing that - Oil companies are nothing compared to pharm and insurance here).

I own my own Engineering company here in the US. I've been a professional Engineer for over 10 years. I pay a lot of tax, I buy a lot of fun stuff, I eat out a lot, i go on heaps of fun and action trips - it's pretty awesome and i'm only 32. I know the trickle down economics is a fallacy to you, but I see it - live and breath it every day. Take away that and you're properly screwed - i am the supply to your small business demand.

I guess when you guys talk about rich, you think of multi millionaires and billionaires...in which case, your point is probably reasonably valid, but the key is the people in this country who earn between 100-500k a year (and even the millionaires and billionaires probably have a lifestyle commensurate with this demographic at least anyway). They're your bread and butter work force, they make up most of the professional population - pay the majority of taxes annually. You might call that middle class? I think my total tax rate last year was in the region of 27%.

I think that's fair - and im happy to pay that (and I cannot even vote here due to being permanent resident). I don't mind if it doesn't go down, but I don't think it should go up either - otherwise, i'll maybe look to move away from the US to a country with a better deal and take my taxes and skills there (brain drains are taking a big toll on the UK for this very reason - why do you think im in the US to start with?). I also pay about 11-12k a year in property taxes (state i know - but still coming out of my pocket).

Anyway - I hear all of your arguments and they're valid. But my main point is that a balanced economy is crucial (just like running a business with balanced books - something the US simply does not have) and the middle / upper classes contribute more in dollar value to that economy then the lower classes - of course they do, they have more disposable income.

I wouldn't vote for either Romney or Obama by the way if i had the choice. I only think Romney will win because he has the biggest war chest in terms of campaign money... and that's the sad thing about America - you can literally buy the presidency with a wallet and ego big enough. However, I do think fiscal conservatism will trump all else in this election... it certainly seems to be shaping up to be the main policy for debate.
 
then fix your horseshit universities charging you hundreds of thousands for a fucking "elite" education.

i agree with you that the higher tax rates for "rich" people affect a lot of people who are just over the threshold and arent "moviestar/CEO of multinational" rich. imo, the thresholds are too low.

but i am definitely not ok with people, single persons, owning hundreds of millions, billions and cry over a 4% increase in their income taxes, because, as a lot of people mentioned before, they have better means of shoveling their money into swiss or cayman bank accounts.

i live in a very expensive ski town. study in another expensive city in the middle of europe. yet my mom managed to raise my brother and me with 2000 € per month AT MOST. we have literally everything we want, expensive sports gear, holidays and we are both still studying at 23 and 26 respectively. i really cant understand, and not from an jealousy standpoint, how you "need" over a million income per year.

i am so not jealous, because i know what money gives you, and i know what it doesnt.
 
I'd be all for it... but only if that meant I had universal healthcare, and school paid for up through at least a first bachelors post-secondary school degree, and awesome public transit systems among other things...

If they want to cut all those things just to give more subsidies to rich corporations though such a tax rate then they can go fuck themselves.
 
I'm guessing it's because he believes that it's not the government's business to pick winners and losers- rather, it should be up to individuals and the market to create their own success and pay tax on a level playing field.

In my opinion, he is quite right with regards to this- simplicity should be a greater priority than increased government meddling.
 
yeah it's funny that nobody brings this up when talking about Obama, he raised $150,000,000 in a month. he had 4x the cash mccain/palin did but ya know since people like him nobody brings it up
 
He does? Pretty damn sure woozy goes after anything he sees. Gnartron and I have baited him quite easily in the past purposefully.
 
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