Big Sky Diversity Fail

[Skier-Jon]

I spent 4 days skiing at Big Sky this weekend on a trip with my girlfriend and noticed something pretty insane. In the entire time I was there (including two sold out weekend days) I did not see a single person of color... until the last day when I noticed what I gathered was the Big Sky marketing department doing an apres/lifestyle photo shoot on one of the lodge decks with two white people, an African American woman, and another darker skinned guy whose race I couldn’t identify.

Now I’m just your average white male with a generally progressive leaning political alignment but man this seemed really ironic to me in an extremely fucked up way. I understand that representation is important but if you’re not doing anything to actually include disadvantaged groups in our industry in a meaningful way is using them for your marketing content really for anything other than virtue signaling and making yourself feel good? Felt pretty scummy to me.

 

[WoFlowz]

Yeah seems like montana to me and skiing in general. Hoping my lil cousins who are light skin don’t have to deal with some of the fuck wads in Wisconsin now that they learned to ski and are actually getting super into it

 

[ASSholebomber22]

I understand that representation is important but if you’re not doing anything to actually include disadvantaged groups in our industry in a meaningful way is using them for your marketing content really for anything other than virtue signaling and making yourself feel good? Felt pretty scummy to me.

Virtue signaling and getting warm-fuzzies is 2020 era marketing 101. Solutions to actual problems are much messier and don't look as good on the gram.

 

[TRVP_ANGEL]

You think this is bad?? I was skiing Vail last week and got kicked out of the lodge. I tried to book a table for me and my girl (who btw is a pair of on3p magnus, her name is sheila). They said there were no tables available for singles but I very kindly explained that it was for TWO. They didnt understand and I had to spent 20 mins to educate them about skisexuality and my relationship with my on3p skis.

Security ended up escorting us out and im so furious. You think racism is a problem? Try explaining who skisexuals are to the "tolerant" left and see how they accepting they are.

 

[Skier-Jon]

Virtue signaling and getting warm-fuzzies is 2020 era marketing 101. Solutions to actual problems are much messier and don't look as good on the gram.

Yeah I can’t say any of this is news to me, I just think it’s wild how blatant they are. It’s also crazy because all the big media types/influencers who work on that side of the industry have been really hammering the racial justice thing this year you’d think at least one of the people in that marketing department would have thought “maybe this is a bad look”

 

[Skier-Jon]

You think this is bad?? I was skiing Vail last week and got kicked out of the lodge. I tried to book a table for me and my girl (who btw is a pair of on3p magnus, her name is sheila). They said there were no tables available for singles but I very kindly explained that it was for TWO. They didnt understand and I had to spent 20 mins to educate them about skisexuality and my relationship with my on3p skis.

Security ended up escorting us out and im so furious. You think racism is a problem? Try explaining who skisexuals are to the "tolerant" left and see how they accepting they are.

Who says edgeless skis are just for aluminum rails

 

[Casey]

I mean I wouldn’t say this is wrong but like what is a ski area supposed to do? They tried putting black kids on buses and shipping them over to white neighborhoods in the 60s that was also not a good look.

seems to me the ski area being all white is a symptom of a bigger problem, not one that anyone alive today will ever live to see fixed. that type of thing took a long time to bake and will take a longer time to unbake IMO

 

[AlaskaDogfart]

The truth is that a lot of places where these ski areas are located have a very small population of minority groups in the first place, which is a big cause of the issue.

 

[LOGLAW]

[tag=272433]@assfvkr[/tag]

 

[ModMommy]

My favorite part about this is how Big Sky is ignoring Montana’s largest minority group: Indigenous Montanans. If they really wanted to increase diversity they would support inclusion programs on the reservations.

**This post was edited on Mar 31st 2021 at 9:30:21am

 

[Skier-Jon]

I mean I wouldn’t say this is wrong but like what is a ski area supposed to do?

seems to me the ski area being all white is a symptom of a bigger problem

The truth is that a lot of places where these ski areas are located have a very small population of minority groups in the first place, which is a big cause of the issue.

Yeah it’s not hard to grasp that skiing is a super expensive and rural sport which means it’s going to skew pretty white, I’m not necessarily saying it’s Big Sky’s fault that there are little to no people of color skiing there. Its just nuts that they would participate in such blatant tokenism.

I’ve worked in marketing at a resort and we discussed the problem of how white our marketing materials were, but what were we supposed to do? Rush out with a camera every time we saw people that weren’t white?

if you have any decent understanding of the underlying problem it doesn’t feel like an appropriate way of representing the industry IMO.

 

[Skier-Jon]

My favorite part about this is how Big Sky is ignoring Montana’s largest minority group: Indigenous Montanans. If they really wanted to increase diversity they would support inclusion programs on the reservations.

**This post was edited on Mar 31st 2021 at 9:30:21am

The one guy in the shoot may have been Indigenous... but yeah I mean we could talk all day about what they should be doing, but hiring two people who wouldn’t have been at the resort anyways for a photo shoot definitely ain’t it cuz

 

[ModMommy]

The one guy in the shoot may have been Indigenous... but yeah I mean we could talk all day about what they should be doing, but hiring two people who wouldn’t have been at the resort anyways for a photo shoot definitely ain’t it cuz

Absolutely, it leaves a sour taste to know that’s likely the only reason they were there. Big Sky is my home resort— it’s thought that we’re in an extremely white state to begin with.

 

[freeskibum82]

congratulations. you are trying to cause a stir about Big Sky to get internet brownie points....

 

[.nasty]

You’re in big sky, Montana. If people of color wanted to go there, they would. Most of the time though, they won’t. The marketing thing might actually be trying to get some of them to go there, it’s not as if they’re doing it to cover up them not wanting people of color or something along those lines. Ya ever think of it that way?

**This post was edited on Mar 31st 2021 at 11:01:17am

 

[BigPurpleSkiSuit]

You’re in big sky, Montana. If people of color wanted to go there, they would. Most of the time though, they won’t. The marketing thing might actually be trying to get some of them to go there, it’s not as if they’re doing it to cover up them not wanting people of color or something along those lines. Ya ever think of it that way?

**This post was edited on Mar 31st 2021 at 11:01:17am

This is a decent point. If you had the option to go somewhere to do something that cost a ton of money and was completely new to you where there are people who definitely actively hate your culture and you, would you want to go there?

 

[eheath]

Ad content with only white people would be worse, no? It's pretty common to inject diversity into advertising, it's not really virtue signaling, it's just smart business practice.

 

[BigPurpleSkiSuit]

Absolutely, it leaves a sour taste to know that’s likely the only reason they were there. Big Sky is my home resort— it’s thought that we’re in an extremely white state to begin with.

 

[BrandoComando]

Anyone watch REEL ROCK 15? One of the films, Black Ice, was about teaching a group of black gym climbers from Memphis how to ice climb in Montana. It's a great film. They fly into Bozeman and I'm sure it tripled the number of black people in town. The film talks about the lack of diversity and some of the barriers to entry for people of color in action sports. And it highlights some programs that are trying to change it.

Diversity in the mountains is lacking for a million reasons. I'm sure Big Sky can do better, but diverse marketing is at least a step in the right direction. Maybe that photo reaches someone of color and it sways them to go skiing because it feels more inclusive than marketing material with an all-white cast. As half-assed as it is, it's better than nothing. As members of the outdoor community, I think we should encourage continued development, rather than shame corporations for not doing enough.

 

[ModMommy]

View attachment 999226

Yeah that was a typo on my part.

 

[Skier-Jon]

Ad content with only white people would be worse, no? It's pretty common to inject diversity into advertising, it's not really virtue signaling, it's just smart business practice.

Maybe that photo reaches someone of color and it sways them to go skiing because it feels more inclusive than marketing material with an all-white cast. As half-assed as it is, it's better than nothing. As members of the outdoor community, I think we should encourage continued development, rather than shame corporations for not doing enough.

Yeah these are great points. I guess I’m just curious where that line is between tokenism and inclusion.

 

[eheath]

You’re in big sky, Montana. If people of color wanted to go there, they would. Most of the time though, they won’t. The marketing thing might actually be trying to get some of them to go there, it’s not as if they’re doing it to cover up them not wanting people of color or something along those lines. Ya ever think of it that way?

**This post was edited on Mar 31st 2021 at 11:01:17am

I think another thing most people don't think about is that the majority of POC probably don't want to ski, most white people don't even ski.

Skiing is a niche sport that the majority of participants are middle class white people, its not like skateboarding or surfing, which aren't even close to as popular as any other sport in the world (ie soccer, football, basketball). I think we need to ease up on the shaming.

 

[eheath]

Yeah these are great points. I guess I’m just curious where that line is between tokenism and inclusion.

I'm not sure if tokenism is even a thing anymore, if you're not diverse you get called out, nobody seems to be trying to shame people for including not-white people in their advertising. I think Big Sky is trying to be inclusive and is hoping to appeal to non-white people.

 

[Young_patty]

Lol, jus rich ski folks being delusional as usual.

reminds me of the time when I came to MSU for orientation, the first thing we had to do was fill out a big old survey in a big old room on campus. One of the questions on the survey was pretty much:

“During your academic time at MSU how likely do you think it will be that you will collaborate or work with a person of color?”

and I put down “not likely” cause when I looked around that big old room there wasn’t even a single person of color there.

 

[Skier-Jon]

I think we need to ease up on the shaming.

Gotta say I wish I had left the name of the resort out of this. My intentions weren’t to shame as much as to hear what people’s thoughts were on the situation. Looking back the title is a little click bait-ey

 

[eheath]

Gotta say I wish I had left the name of the resort out of this. My intentions weren’t to shame as much as to hear what people’s thoughts were on the situation. Looking back the title is a little click bait-ey

You could swap out basically any large resort in north america/europe and say the same thing, its not like Park City is overflowing with diversity either.

 

[ReturnToMonkey]

I have had a few hispanic friends out here, traded sunglasses with a black liftie, and seen quite a few east Asians. And have never heard of any sort of discrimination towards any minorities here. It's definitely a pretty white place though and I hope this marketing tactic actually somewhat works to bring more minorities here. One of the main things I miss about living in CO is the diversity there.

 

[BigPurpleSkiSuit]

Anyone watch REEL ROCK 15? One of the films, Black Ice, was about teaching a group of black gym climbers from Memphis how to ice climb in Montana. It's a great film. They fly into Bozeman and I'm sure it tripled the number of black people in town. The film talks about the lack of diversity and some of the barriers to entry for people of color in action sports. And it highlights some programs that are trying to change it.

Diversity in the mountains is lacking for a million reasons. I'm sure Big Sky can do better, but diverse marketing is at least a step in the right direction. Maybe that photo reaches someone of color and it sways them to go skiing because it feels more inclusive than marketing material with an all-white cast. As half-assed as it is, it's better than nothing. As members of the outdoor community, I think we should encourage continued development, rather than shame corporations for not doing enough.

Yeah, I don't even climb and thought that was amazing.

 

[eheath]

One of the main things I miss about living in CO is the diversity there.

Colorado is 86% white, just saying.

 

[Skier-Jon]

Colorado is 86% white, just saying.

I think he’s talking about all the white people with dreadlocks lol

 

[BrandoComando]

Yeah, I don't even climb and thought that was amazing.

Same! I'm not a climber but the film was super inspiring. Who could've imagined that a Memphis kid who'd been shot multiple times in gang violence would go on a North Face-sponsored expedition with legends of the sport.

Climbing films make for the best outdoor films. There's a reason The Dawn Wall and Free Solo go to theaters nationwide, but films about surfing, skiing, biking etc. rarely leave enthusiast circles.

 

[SammyDubz]

can't believe y'all get bothered by this type of thing

 

[ASSholebomber22]

Colorado is 86% white, just saying.

I mean, denver is 52% non-hispanic white, 31.8% hispanic, 10.2% black, and 3.4% asian as per wikipedia. And I'd be willing to bet the numbers of the hispanic population is underrepresented a decent amount as well. Edit: not to mention international tourism. Pretty diverse if you ask me

**This post was edited on Mar 31st 2021 at 12:31:37pm

 

[ReturnToMonkey]

Colorado is 86% white, just saying.

Yes for the entire state. Where I lived near Denver it's a lot lower. Denver metro is close to 65% white and playing soccer/running track I interacted with even more non-white people. A lot of the food and music I was exposed to was latinx and Asian, which I have seen signifigantly less of here. I'm not some summit county white washed kid

 

[Skiblade420]

I think another thing most people don't think about is that the majority of POC probably don't want to ski, most white people don't even ski.

Skiing is a niche sport that the majority of participants are middle class white people, its not like skateboarding or surfing, which aren't even close to as popular as any other sport in the world (ie soccer, football, basketball). I think we need to ease up on the shaming.

This is exactly what I’m talking about, most people don’t ski and don’t even live by mountains, specifically a lot of minority groups don’t live in mountain towns/around resorts or even have interest in it whatsoever.

I think showing diversity in an ad like the one we’re talking about does come off kind of weird when it seems forced... but hey, maybe a poc will see the add and feel a little more comfortable going skiing. So cool, seems harmless and like a decent idea.

Why does NS have to keep beating this dead horse and caring so much about these things that are not a big deal.

Another thing I find strange is when people bring up.

“wE nEeD mOrE FrEe pRoGraMs FoR PoC”

like I understand a program for disadvantaged kids or ones in poor areas specifically. But to say it’s specifically for POC almost seems wrong in itself. Like you’re forcing something, treating a specific race like cattle and that you’re their savior.

 

[404404]

Yo,

That was probably the dumbest shit you have ever said.

Think about it for a minute and maybe edit that post before other people see it, and if you need me to explain it you are most definitely part of the fucking problem.

I think another thing most people don't think about is that the majority of POC probably don't want to ski, most white people don't even ski.

Skiing is a niche sport that the majority of participants are middle class white people, its not like skateboarding or surfing, which aren't even close to as popular as any other sport in the world (ie soccer, football, basketball). I think we need to ease up on the shaming.

 

[ReturnToMonkey]

Yo,

That was probably the dumbest shit you have ever said.

Think about it for a minute and maybe edit that post before other people see it, and if you need me to explain it you are most definitely part of the fucking problem.

"No wheels and no keys, no boats, no snowmobiles, and no skis"

Even Dre knows skis are just as nice a luxury as a boat or sled. I'd be willing to bet he can make a few turns alright.

 

[hi_vis360]

all I gotta say is I skied at a super cheap rope tow park for the first time recently and it was also the first time I've skied park with a visible person of color.

coincidence? definitely not. make skiing cheap and diversity will follow

 

[ModMommy]

all I gotta say is I skied at a super cheap rope tow park for the first time recently and it was also the first time I've skied park with a visible person of color.

coincidence? definitely not. make skiing cheap and diversity will follow

Yeah, one of the big issues here is accessibility of the sport. Skiing is expensive. Really, really expensive. It’s hard to recruit people to come ski a day when tickets are close to $200.

 

[theabortionator]

The one white guy, white girl, asian dude, black girl for a 4 person picture has been around for a long time.

I don't necessarily have any answer but its not like it's something new for marketing.

**This post was edited on Mar 31st 2021 at 10:12:13pm

 

[eheath]

Yo,

That was probably the dumbest shit you have ever said.

Think about it for a minute and maybe edit that post before other people see it, and if you need me to explain it you are most definitely part of the fucking problem.

I think you're just reading it in a negative context for some reason, what was so bad about it? Skiing is a niche sport, most people don't ski and don't have a desire to ski, regardless of race, that's literally what I said. There are thousands of white people who live in SLC, one of the most ski-accessible cities, who have never skied in their life and don't intend on skiing.

**This post was edited on Mar 31st 2021 at 5:13:16pm

 

[life_is_hood]

I think you're just reading it in a negative context for some reason, what was so bad about it? Skiing is a niche sport, most people don't ski and don't have a desire to ski, regardless of race, that's literally what I said. There are thousands of white people who live in SLC, one of the most ski-accessible city's, who have never skied in their life and don't intend on skiing.

It's a tough pill to swallow but if you ski and all your friends ski you don't really realize that most of the population (exaggerating a bit here but...) view you and your buddies as adrenaline junkie psychopaths willing to brave avalanche danger/risk of serious injury/single digit temps on the regular just to get your rocks off sliding on snow for a couple hours a weekend. We're a niche group of weirdos and it's nice to indoctrinate others into our niche group of weirdos sometimes but a large percentage of people (regardless of race) just aren't interested lol

**This post was edited on Mar 31st 2021 at 5:16:24pm

 

[appa]

it's such a double-edged sword. yes, it's important to increase representation of people of marginalized identities, but that ought to be in positions of power as well as in imagery used for advertising. I see the value in giving positive feedback to companies who are taking steps in the right direction, but I also see the very real possible outcomes that face folks who might show up to a place like Big Sky or any other super homogenous place expecting to see folks with shared identities. For example, I teach at an independent school in Colorado and every semester I speak with students of color who are overwhelmed by how many white people they are surrounded by when they show up because all of the marketing material they were showed made the place seem more diverse than it is in reality.

I think the first thing a place like Big Sky should do is pay a person of color who is an expert on diversity and social equity and justice to do some consulting and give them structures to implement and follow (and actually fucking listen to) because otherwise there will be someone making impactful decisions to "increase diversity" who, like [tag=38820]@eheath[/tag] earlier in this thread, is "not sure tokenism is even a thing anymore," that could potentially increase harm done to underrepresented folks while also checking the corporate box of "doing diversity work" and wondering what went wrong.

 

[Skier-Jon]

it's such a double-edged sword. yes, it's important to increase representation of people of marginalized identities, but that ought to be in positions of power as well as in imagery used for advertising. I see the value in giving positive feedback to companies who are taking steps in the right direction, but I also see the very real possible outcomes that face folks who might show up to a place like Big Sky or any other super homogenous place expecting to see folks with shared identities. For example, I teach at an independent school in Colorado and every semester I speak with students of color who are overwhelmed by how many white people they are surrounded by when they show up because all of the marketing material they were showed made the place seem more diverse than it is in reality.

I think the first thing a place like Big Sky should do is pay a person of color who is an expert on diversity and social equity and justice to do some consulting and give them structures to implement and follow (and actually fucking listen to) because otherwise there will be someone making impactful decisions to "increase diversity" who, like [tag=38820]@eheath[/tag] earlier in this thread, is "not sure tokenism is even a thing anymore," that could potentially increase harm done to underrepresented folks while also checking the corporate box of "doing diversity work" and wondering what went wrong.

Yeah I'd say this is the most balanced/well thought out answer I've seen yet

 

[Notaskibum]

tbh ns is probably whiter than big sky

 

[appa]

As a PoC freeskier, I have been working on calling people in and trying to better meet people where they are in terms of thinking about social equity and justice rather than communicating sternly and esoterically. So, if anyone out there reading this feels confused or has questions I just want to say that I want to practice answering them without actively alienating anyone or implying any inferences that hinge on character instead of ideas, if that makes sense. Hit me up, but you gotta be down to listen, too.

 

[eheath]

I think the first thing a place like Big Sky should do is pay a person of color who is an expert on diversity and social equity and justice to do some consulting and give them structures to implement and follow (and actually fucking listen to) because otherwise there will be someone making impactful decisions to "increase diversity" who, like [tag=38820]@eheath[/tag] earlier in this thread, is "not sure tokenism is even a thing anymore," that could potentially increase harm done to underrepresented folks while also checking the corporate box of "doing diversity work" and wondering what went wrong.

I didn't mean to come of brash, to me tokenism is putting someone of a certain race into a situation where it's obvious they're being injected into the situation to create diversity. This is a norm for advertising, brands literally get called out on social media if they only have white people in their ads, but then if they include other races, they're now just tokens? Maybe it's just the word itself that isn't the best way to describe the way race is represented in advertising.

 

[Skier-Jon]

tbh ns is probably whiter than big sky

I was waiting for someone to point this out lol but we're all aware of that and it can't hurt to discuss.

 

[Skier-Jon]

I didn't mean to come of brash, to me tokenism is putting someone of a certain race into a situation where it's obvious they're being injected into the situation to create diversity. This is a norm for advertising, brands literally get called out on social media if they only have white people in their ads, but then if they include other races, they're now just tokens? Maybe it's just the word itself that isn't the best way to describe the way race is represented in advertising.

I feel as if its different when most of these brands that "get called out on social media if they only have white people in their ads" already have a much more diverse consumer demo than the ski industry, so accurately representing the people who consume their product feels more honest to me while putting POC into ski content feels a bit more like tokenism. On that note some people (yourself included) have brought up that including them in these marketing materials might make them feel more welcome, which I'm all for. I guess it all comes down to what their intent is, and thats where I think the mentioned idea of a POC diversity consultant might help them do that in good taste.

 

[eheath]

I feel as if its different when most of these brands that "get called out on social media if they only have white people in their ads" already have a much more diverse consumer demo than the ski industry, so accurately representing the people who consume their product feels more honest to me while putting POC into ski content feels a bit more like tokenism. On that note some people (yourself included) have brought up that including them in these marketing materials might make them feel more welcome, which I'm all for. I guess it all comes down to what their intent is, and thats where I think the mentioned idea of a POC diversity consultant might help them do that in good taste.

For a large resort like Big Sky, they likely are trying to appeal to POC with this advertising, I can't really speak to whether this is effective or not.

What you're saying about a brand in the ski industry is true, I was referring to brands outside of skiing, just normal everyday shit. I dunno if I've seen any ski brands get called out for such things.

 

[CantCork]

Gotta say I wish I had left the name of the resort out of this. My intentions weren’t to shame as much as to hear what people’s thoughts were on the situation. Looking back the title is a little click bait-ey

Just a passerby on this thread, but wanted to pay my respect to this conversation. Ton of good points here and I admire your self awareness and genuine care