Apple vs the FBI

corona

Active member
The FBI is trying to get a court order to force Apple to create a 'backdoor' that allows the FBI access to the iphone of one of those shooters in California last year.

Apple is saying 'no way' since it's a gross breach of privacy and it sets the precedence for the FBI or other government organizations to do this whenever they want.

Apparently the FBI doesn't even need this information. They're just using this case to set precedence to make it easier for them next time.

Another issue is that if the FBI is granted access to the personal information of iphones, then it means other countries like China will also have the precedence required in order to force Apple to give them access too.

The flip side of this is that the FBI is saying that your privacy should be second to security.

Here's an article on it:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/apple-cook-san-bernardino-phone-1.3451372

and here's Apples public response to the FBI's request:
http://www.apple.com/customer-letter/
 
Apparently today there was a motorcade of town cars and escalades all with MD Govy plates that showed up at the Apple HQ today. Hopefully Apple stands strong against the strong arm of the US government.
 
I haven't seen a lot of people opposing Apple on this. I'm sure its happening somewhere, but on the whole it seems to be way less polarizing than I would've expected. That's rad.
 
13633394:ChrisMcCandless said:
Good for Apple.

this, I'm glad Apple is holding their ground on this. Like they said, once it's done there's no turning back, before you know it's standard procedure.
 
I saw this on the CBC this morning. One analyzer had a great point about apple in this situation: Apple is trying to stay away from this affair. It would be horrible for business and shareholders.

The only thing that ties Apple to this situation is the fact the terrorists had an Iphone. If it would be a Samsung or anything else, it would not be a problem. But Apple is banking on the fact that their phones are uncrackable, even with the best in law enforcement working away at it. By law, Apple has no right to break into someone's else phone; once a product has been sold, the rights of use are now disclosed to the user and not the manufacturer. In other words: Once I take your money and give you this equipment, I have no further ties with you and that good.

US law enforcement is getting old, lazy and greedy. They are looking for the easiest way to tap into information so a person that can barely turn on a computer can do it. They claim trust and all, but always end up in scandal. If you want competent electronic forensic detectives, hire brilliant, trained hackers and not lawers. The FBI count on billions to mostly lobby these changes to the law. Problem is that legislature is independent from the Judicial branch and legislators are civilians will be impacted by this law. So instead of passing this concept as a bill; they passed it through their own courts to bypass congress and senate.

Not too long ago in Canada, a breach of information showed up in the news about random people in the RCMP would track ex-girlfriends, lawers, creditors without paper trails. It was well covered up until the watchdog noticed irregularities in the searches. This was after Harper claimed that police are trusted with this information.
 
“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” -Ben Franklin

I truly hope Apple does not give in to the governments wishes on this matter.
 
Theyre milking it for the publicity. Give it a while and theyll quietly decript this guys phone and never say a word about it.
 
13633978:Mt.Ass said:
Because US corporate tax rates are rediculous

Want to sell products within the US? Pay the fucking tax rate. If I don't pay taxes I go to jail, but if a corporation does it, well who cares right?
 
13633809:ANDR01D said:
Don't pay them on the back too much, they do still have 102 billion stashed overseas to avoid paying US taxes.

Its just good that they're not giving in to the FBI. Sets an example for other companies.
 
topic:VinnieF said:
The FBI is trying to get a court order to force Apple to create a 'backdoor' that allows the FBI access to the iphone of one of those shooters in California last year.

isnt that called a warrant?
 
One of the selling points of an Apple product is that their phones data is incredibly secure and their encryption is nearly uncrackable (NSA can't get past it, FBI can't get past it, others have tried and failed) to give up that selling point is unfair for a government to do to a company.

I think Apple should be able to keep their shit. the government just doesn't want to have to keep coming to Apple every time they want to decryp. its not like the government can't get the information they need, it's just not as easy for them. Lazy dinks want to have an all access pass for whatever data they want

Sources: Radio talk show
 
13636779:Slush said:
One of the selling points of an Apple product is that their phones data is incredibly secure and their encryption is nearly uncrackable (NSA can't get past it, FBI can't get past it, others have tried and failed) to give up that selling point is unfair for a government to do to a company.

I think Apple should be able to keep their shit. the government just doesn't want to have to keep coming to Apple every time they want to decryp. its not like the government can't get the information they need, it's just not as easy for them. Lazy dinks want to have an all access pass for whatever data they want

Sources: Radio talk show

Encryption and security isn't that big of a selling point. If it was, Blackberry would still be a major player. They were/are the leader in security. Like far above and beyond anyone else. There's a really good reason people like the president use Blackberry, and it's definitely not for the apps.
 
13636770:Skier_75 said:
I bet people would find out how to get this access and stealing iPhones would be easier for them

13636780:CrotchKiller said:
No I doubt that's problem at all

13636803:Lonely said:
Ding dong you're wrong

I am not sure why you're saying he is wrong when that IS one of the reasons for apple not allowing this. This and freedom..

from the Apple website

"Smartphones, led by iPhone, have become an essential part of our lives. People use them to store an incredible amount of personal information, from our private conversations to our photos, our music, our notes, our calendars and contacts, our financial information and health data, even where we have been and where we are going.

All that information needs to be protected from hackers and criminals who want to access it, steal it, and use it without our knowledge or permission. Customers expect Apple and other technology companies to do everything in our power to protect their personal information, and at Apple we are deeply committed to safeguarding their data.

Compromising the security of our personal information can ultimately put our personal safety at risk. That is why encryption has become so important to all of us."
 
13637151:louie.mirags said:
I am not sure why you're saying he is wrong when that IS one of the reasons for apple not allowing this. This and freedom..

from the Apple website

"Smartphones, led by iPhone, have become an essential part of our lives. People use them to store an incredible amount of personal information, from our private conversations to our photos, our music, our notes, our calendars and contacts, our financial information and health data, even where we have been and where we are going.

All that information needs to be protected from hackers and criminals who want to access it, steal it, and use it without our knowledge or permission. Customers expect Apple and other technology companies to do everything in our power to protect their personal information, and at Apple we are deeply committed to safeguarding their data.

Compromising the security of our personal information can ultimately put our personal safety at risk. That is why encryption has become so important to all of us."

I suppose just his presentation wasn't great but the point is there. I would say that it is risky, considering how the government has a hard time keeping info safe.
 
Apple was one of the first members of the NSA's PRISM program. We learned this from the Snowden leaks.

Apple "fighting back" against the FBI 'could' simply a publicity stunt or a psyop. A backdoor already exists for the NSA, Apple has even unlocked iPhones for the Feds 70 Times Before.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ked-iphones-for-the-feds-70-times-before.html
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/us-tech-giants-nsa-data

And it should be said that Apples actions could legitimize backdoors in the future. Congress has already been forcing this issue:
http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...al-puts-pressure-on-congress-to-break-impasse

That or Apple is telling everyone that they are fighting against the “status quo” as a marketing ploy. Everyone will swarm towards Apple for this reason.
 
13637602:fuckmekevin said:
Apple was one of the first members of the NSA's PRISM program. We learned this from the Snowden leaks.

Apple "fighting back" against the FBI 'could' simply a publicity stunt or a psyop. A backdoor already exists for the NSA, Apple has even unlocked iPhones for the Feds 70 Times Before.

On the statement Apple released, they admit to unlocking phones in the past due to search warrants. What they refuse to do is have a permanent backdoor open to the NSA so that no warrants would be needed.
 
The people who think the FBI can't get into a locked iPhone and need a permanent "backdoor" still use flip phones. They're probably watching me type this through my camera.... Fuckin government man
 
13638077:SDrvper said:
You guys are acting like what Apple is doing is bad or illegal? There absolutely nothing wrong with what they are doing.

Microsoft: 108.3 billion

Electric company, i think it was general electric 120 billion ish

Pfizer: 74 billion

Well when the total comes to 620 billion in unpaid taxes and a total of 2.1 trillion in overseas profits.

Is tax evasion legal? Yes, should it be legal? No.
 
13638077:SDrvper said:
You are acting like what Apple is doing is bad or illegal? There absolutely nothing wrong with what they are doing.

Microsoft: 108.3 billion

Electric company, i think it was general electric 120 billion ish

Pfizer: 74 billion

Did you reallly just try to say Apple is doing nothing wrong because other scumbag corporations are doing it too? All of those companies need to bring their profits back and pay the taxes they owe.
 
13638138:SDrvper said:
Is it really owed though?

What they are doing is completely legal, you may not agree with it but there is nothing wrong with what those corporations are doing.

Take abortion, many people don't agree with it but it is legal.

You're right, it is legal. However just because corporations and the politicians in their pockets made it legal, doesn't mean that it's right. This is money that is desperately needed in the US, and if it doesn't come back, well then the country will continue to take hits elsewhere. Reductions in budgets for education, national parks, etc. I don't know about you, but I'm willing to bet that most of this country would rather see a corporate tax law reform before income tax needs to be increased again.
 
13638162:ANDR01D said:
I don't know about you, but I'm willing to bet that most of this country would rather see a corporate tax law reform before income tax needs to be increased again.

Good luck because the same companies avoiding taxes are the same funding the establishment politicians. Money means more than votes unfortunately
 
Rather than re-invent the wheel as to my views on this I'll just post the following. Sam Harris made some comments on this issue, and I then wrote him an e-mail (below).

Dear Dr. Harris,

I listened with interest to your most recent podcast offering. One of the news items you discussed is the current and ongoing controversy surrounding Apple's position to oppose a court order requiring that it create a program that would allow the user to circumnavigate the currently impenetrable security on the iPhone.

For the record, my view is that, first, when one is faced with a court order, one has three options. First, obey the court order; second, appeal the court order and obey it while that appeal is pending; third, appeal the court order and get the court to grant a stay pending the outcome of the appeal. Anything else should result in imprisonment. Regardless of the public sentiment on the substance of the issue, we cannot have individuals or organizations ignoring court orders they don't like – even if they have good reasons for not liking said orders. I suspect that Apple will go with option three.

As to the substance of the issue, I have a problem, in terms of the way power is delineated in society, with giving a Court jurisdiction to order a company to develop a new product that the government will want to use. Regardless of the social utility of that product, this is simply not something that a Court should be empowered to do. No doubt Apple could use its vast resources in a number of ways that would have great social utility, or more narrowly, would be eminently useful to law enforcement. However, I don't think the judiciary should be empowered to force them to use those resources in the way it thinks best. However free you think market actors should be, surely they should at best be limited by statutory regulations, and not dictated to by the whims of judges, whose raison d'etre is to interpret and enforce those statutes.

This is different from asking Apple to supply data that it already has, or use its expertise to help the government achieve a goal (for example, if the security was already beatable if you happened to have the expertise to do it). What is being sought is the conscription by the Court of Apple's labour force to develop a new idea, meeting all the requirements of a patentable technology. If the government wants a private actor to do something like that, it should be seeking that collaboration contractually. Legislated regulation of future smartphone OSes being developed such that they are developed within pre-set parameters regarding security would be another reasonable way to approach the issue.

The other interesting point you made was with regard to the analogy of building an impenetrable room in your house. You asked, if it were possible to build such a room that no one could get into, should this be allowed? You thought not, and noted that this scenario has never arisen in reality. However, it has in fact arisen in real life – for the better part of the 19th century.

Current locks are incredibly easy to pick, and actually represent a massive downgrade from the quality of the most secure locks, developed about two centuries ago. In the 1800s, there was something of a technological race to achieve an unbreakable, impenetrable lock. The lock developed by Bramah (in 1777) was impenetrable for decades. This did in fact attract government attention; his majesty launched a competition, offering a 100 sterling reward to anyone who could create an impenetrable lock that would also seize up and become un-openable (even using the key) if tampered with. Jeremiah Chubb managed it, and claimed the prize in 1818. This is actually remarkably analogous to the iPhone's security system, which effectively "seizes up" after ten incorrect password attempts.

So, to re-phrase your hypothetical question: should Bramah and Chubb have been forbidden by the British Government to sell the locks they'd designed? In my opinion, no. Nor should government have forced them to build an inferior lock. Through their ingenuity, they created a product that the public, and the government itself, wanted to buy. That's the sort of technological progress that society ought to encourage.

Ultimately, as one would expect, the advent of a better lock yielded a better lockpick, and someone eventually discovered how to beat these locks in 1851. An American locksmith named Hobbs, who made his living demonstrating to banks the weaknesses in their security systems, managed to beat both locks. The result of this was a permanent downward spiral in lock security. As discussed, modern locks are hilariously easy to pick – the average person could be taught to pick the bolt lock on your front door alarmingly quickly. Once the public became disillusioned with the notion that unbeatable security existed, there was no longer any margin in developing better technology: no one would pay for it anyway. Instead, the focus shifted to locks that were easy to mass produce cheaply – the modern pin and tumbler design.

What would the result be if the government insisted that every device with electronic security could be beat owing to a built-in security flaw, or "back door"? Possibly the same progress chill as occurred above – once someone's figured out how to breach security, it's only a matter of time until that becomes common knowledge. Arguably, this is inevitable anyway, and forcing Apple to do it themselves is merely speeding matters along. Or maybe history won't repeat itself in this case, and technology companies will continue to develop better locks for future phones. In any event, I thought you might be interested to hear that your unrealistic hypothetical thought experiment has, in a sense, already come to pass. The actual real-world implications of these sorts of public policy decisions are likely impossible to predict.
 
13639018:J.D. said:
Rather than re-invent the wheel as to my views on this I'll just post the following. Sam Harris made some comments on this issue, and I then wrote him an e-mail (below).

Dear Dr. Harris,

I listened with interest to your most recent podcast offering. One of the news items you discussed is the current and ongoing controversy surrounding Apple's position to oppose a court order requiring that it create a program that would allow the user to circumnavigate the currently impenetrable security on the iPhone.

For the record, my view is that, first, when one is faced with a court order, one has three options. First, obey the court order; second, appeal the court order and obey it while that appeal is pending; third, appeal the court order and get the court to grant a stay pending the outcome of the appeal. Anything else should result in imprisonment. Regardless of the public sentiment on the substance of the issue, we cannot have individuals or organizations ignoring court orders they don't like – even if they have good reasons for not liking said orders. I suspect that Apple will go with option three.

As to the substance of the issue, I have a problem, in terms of the way power is delineated in society, with giving a Court jurisdiction to order a company to develop a new product that the government will want to use. Regardless of the social utility of that product, this is simply not something that a Court should be empowered to do. No doubt Apple could use its vast resources in a number of ways that would have great social utility, or more narrowly, would be eminently useful to law enforcement. However, I don't think the judiciary should be empowered to force them to use those resources in the way it thinks best. However free you think market actors should be, surely they should at best be limited by statutory regulations, and not dictated to by the whims of judges, whose raison d'etre is to interpret and enforce those statutes.

This is different from asking Apple to supply data that it already has, or use its expertise to help the government achieve a goal (for example, if the security was already beatable if you happened to have the expertise to do it). What is being sought is the conscription by the Court of Apple's labour force to develop a new idea, meeting all the requirements of a patentable technology. If the government wants a private actor to do something like that, it should be seeking that collaboration contractually. Legislated regulation of future smartphone OSes being developed such that they are developed within pre-set parameters regarding security would be another reasonable way to approach the issue.

The other interesting point you made was with regard to the analogy of building an impenetrable room in your house. You asked, if it were possible to build such a room that no one could get into, should this be allowed? You thought not, and noted that this scenario has never arisen in reality. However, it has in fact arisen in real life – for the better part of the 19th century.

Current locks are incredibly easy to pick, and actually represent a massive downgrade from the quality of the most secure locks, developed about two centuries ago. In the 1800s, there was something of a technological race to achieve an unbreakable, impenetrable lock. The lock developed by Bramah (in 1777) was impenetrable for decades. This did in fact attract government attention; his majesty launched a competition, offering a 100 sterling reward to anyone who could create an impenetrable lock that would also seize up and become un-openable (even using the key) if tampered with. Jeremiah Chubb managed it, and claimed the prize in 1818. This is actually remarkably analogous to the iPhone's security system, which effectively "seizes up" after ten incorrect password attempts.

So, to re-phrase your hypothetical question: should Bramah and Chubb have been forbidden by the British Government to sell the locks they'd designed? In my opinion, no. Nor should government have forced them to build an inferior lock. Through their ingenuity, they created a product that the public, and the government itself, wanted to buy. That's the sort of technological progress that society ought to encourage.

Ultimately, as one would expect, the advent of a better lock yielded a better lockpick, and someone eventually discovered how to beat these locks in 1851. An American locksmith named Hobbs, who made his living demonstrating to banks the weaknesses in their security systems, managed to beat both locks. The result of this was a permanent downward spiral in lock security. As discussed, modern locks are hilariously easy to pick – the average person could be taught to pick the bolt lock on your front door alarmingly quickly. Once the public became disillusioned with the notion that unbeatable security existed, there was no longer any margin in developing better technology: no one would pay for it anyway. Instead, the focus shifted to locks that were easy to mass produce cheaply – the modern pin and tumbler design.

What would the result be if the government insisted that every device with electronic security could be beat owing to a built-in security flaw, or "back door"? Possibly the same progress chill as occurred above – once someone's figured out how to breach security, it's only a matter of time until that becomes common knowledge. Arguably, this is inevitable anyway, and forcing Apple to do it themselves is merely speeding matters along. Or maybe history won't repeat itself in this case, and technology companies will continue to develop better locks for future phones. In any event, I thought you might be interested to hear that your unrealistic hypothetical thought experiment has, in a sense, already come to pass. The actual real-world implications of these sorts of public policy decisions are likely impossible to predict.

Really strong analogy. This all is a huge game of where do we draw the line
 
13639018:J.D. said:
Current locks are incredibly easy to pick

for the most part, yes. but there's been a resurgence in more secure and higher quality locks. It pretty much started with Medeco and the use of pins that need to rotate to the proper angle before they can be lifted to the proper position. For the last couple decades they've been used in practically all commercial applications that require even moderate security. They're very very very difficult to pick. Easier to bump, but the knowhow and skill even to bump them is prohibitive enough for them to essentially be a lock that can't be broken into (except by the 1 in a million people with the knowhow and skill).

And ever since Medeco started dominating the market there's been a huge push by other companies to develop their own locks with equal security.

I know this has nothing to do with the topic, but thought I'd point it out.
 
Because you really have so much security from the government on your phone and on the internet.

Maybe I just suck at seeing the bright side of life but this whole thing is kind of interesting.

The stuff on your phone isn't locked away from the government. IF you honestly believe that you're crazy.
 
13638160:VinnieF said:
the more I hear about this the more it just seems like a huge PR stunt for Apple to boost sales.

that is exactly what it is. Apple has helped out the government before but in light of all of this government overstep and with elections coming up, someone had the genius idea of making this shit big.
 
I was driving cross country and decided to listen to Rush Limbaugh in honor of my aunt since I was trying to call her in my boredom. I didn't last long.

Basically, Rush was playing the government role on this saying that they need to have access to all of our phone activity (so I guess he was bashing Apple)... goes on and on and on about how phones are so trackable and that the government should be able to circumnavigate privacy in the needs of national security.

He then goes on to say the last 7 years of the Obama administration have completely torn up the constitution, our civil liberties are being violated...
 
13640373:CoreyTrevor said:
I was driving cross country and decided to listen to Rush Limbaugh in honor of my aunt since I was trying to call her in my boredom. I didn't last long.

Basically, Rush was playing the government role on this saying that they need to have access to all of our phone activity (so I guess he was bashing Apple)... goes on and on and on about how phones are so trackable and that the government should be able to circumnavigate privacy in the needs of national security.

He then goes on to say the last 7 years of the Obama administration have completely torn up the constitution, our civil liberties are being violated...

Haha what a hypocrite and just to think there are people who hang on his every word
 
Back
Top